From ur quotes, Islam does not seem to ban slavery. It considers a good deed to free the slave, particularly if slave is believer.
Anyway, slavery (of believer or unbeliever) is bad and should be banned irrespective of religious sanction to do it.
Slave mothers do not imply much freedom or social mobility. People with slave fathers rising to top would be impressive.
[This message has been edited by ZZ (edited March 25, 2000).]
Hi ZZ:
First and foremost I like to know your nationality and faith. You seem to be ashamed to state about that. Your arguments are vague and ambiguous. Once I know what your faith is? I'll address you accordingly. However, you are entitled of your opinion for which I don't give a hoot. Rather throwing some heavy name like encyclopedia Britannica. put forth your source to refute me. In an intelligent debate one must put forth his or her sources, otherwise it is an indicator that one is not accustom to an intelligent debate.
If Pope is serious than he must return the most precious Muslim Mosques in Spain he has occupied since Spanish Inquisition and has converted into Catholic Church as trophies including all other Mosques as well. Pope must return all loot and stolen stuff from Muslims worth billions of dollars (Gold, Diamonds, Jewelry, Arts, Literature, and irreplaceable scientific books and literature he has in his possession in Vatican. I send him an email asking the same. Guess what? I never got the response.
Holohoax is about to milk money from the world. http://www.angelfire.com/ak/BaltoMuslims/causeofpalestine.html
http://msanews.mynet.net/Scholars/Lowrie/
http://www.msnbc.com/news/106136.asp?cp1=1
[This message has been edited by sabah (edited March 28, 2000).]
Irrefragable,
Fact of a matter is that Indian Hindu should thank to Muslims for civilizing them. Hindu and India owes everything to Muslims. Every landmark in India that you may be proud of has Muslims signatures on it. Get a life.<<
You got to be kidding. India had one of the oldest university and was centre of learning from time immorial. The only problem Indians had was that they took all this good life for granted, lack of struggle for daily existence unlike people coming from harsh climates had made them weak. The landmarks of significance mentioned in India were actually build by Indian articians using India money-all of the Indian landmarks were destroyed and looted by the invadors. The most significant site Indus valley civilization stands out a true example of Indian achievement.
[This message has been edited by sabah (edited March 28, 2000).]
Rani: You wrote: "You got to be kidding. India had one of the oldest university and was centre of learning from time immorial. The only problem Indians had was that they took all this good life for granted, lack of struggle for daily existence unlike people coming from harsh climates had made them weak. The landmarks of significance mentioned in India were actually build by Indian articians using India money-all of the Indian landmarks were destroyed and looted by the invadors. The most significant site Indus valley civilization stands out a true example of Indian achievement.
I already said it takes very wise and strong to apologize and you appear to be far away from any of those qualities."
CAN you name those landmarks and other achievements, which were built by Indians and destroyed by invaders? A hollow statement means nothing.
We are tired of giving references to every newcomer coming .
why dont u go and read some western book on history of ancient and medieveal India. would help you and save our trouble.
[This message has been edited by sabah (edited March 28, 2000).]
Irrefrabable writes:
If Pope the phuddo is serious than he must return the most precious Muslim Mosques in Spain he has occupied since Spanish Inquisition and has converted into Catholic Church as trophies including all other Mosques as well.<<<
Here’s someone who is trying to mend fences, and this is how you refer to the leader of a Major religion. The ironic part is that there is no “single” leader of your religion who can be asked questions from. There are lots of small time , but not any significant one.
What were Berbers/Moors doing in Spain to begin with? If Spaniards should return mosques to Muslim, should the Bazentian churches, taken by the Ottoman be returned to Christianity? Should Istanbul once again become Constantinople, the seat of Christianity?
I send him an email asking the same. Guess what? I never got the response.<<
If you address him as Pope you are one big Islamic even to expect a response. The more appropriate title to address him is the Pontas, the Holy Sea.
Holohoax is about to milk money from the world.<<<<
I don’t think that’s the case, but by yours ways of looking at things, then Karbala incidence is probably as much a Hoax. In Karbala a few dozens were killed, and the followers still, after 1400 years, remember the sadness of the incidence. So what’s wrong is remembering 6 million (not 6 dozen) which is still very recent, only a little over 50 years ago. Did you mean to suggest that Karbala is a Hoax? You know if you said something like that about Karbala
Good luck.
[This message has been edited by sabah (edited March 28, 2000).]
NYAhmadi.. good show :)
I agree with you here.
Bubble is Busted
[This message has been edited by X2 (edited March 28, 2000).]
NYA, I agreed with about the inaapropriate word used by Irrefragable for the Pope. But you quote to him sunk you to his level.
Now, what is that supposed to mean.
Care to explain.
Later on
[This message has been edited by X2 (edited March 28, 2000).]
Glorious Quran 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh]. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."
Glorious Quran 4:171! O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs.]
Glorious Quran 16:126! And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allâh), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.)].
To all
There is no clergy in Islam.
There is no evangalism in Islam.
Pope is nothing but a Kafir and Mushrik
As posted earlier by my buddy “Irrefragable” Islam has abrogated all religions.
*Glorious Quran 3:85! And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. *
Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."
[This message has been edited by X2 (edited March 28, 2000).]
Dear Zman,
Ask Bubbly, he knows who I am referring to.
If you carefully read my response, I suggested at some point that there is no single/visible leader of Islam that can be matched to Pope (not to suggest any Catholic superiority over Islam), but there is just no single Leader. If there is one, the title suggested by Refrigerator will suit that leader well for having people like Refrigerator and Bubble Boy follow him.
Kapish?
Any leader who is followed by folks who degrade other faiths deserve better than Phuddo title, perhaps Phuddul-Kabeera.
Bubble buster,
Very interesting so according to Islam the world is divided into two catogories believers and Kaffirs. Kaffirs will be punished because they fail to please Allah. Do you think true God cares whether anybody pleases him or not...if the answer is 'yes' then God is no different then mortals and if your answer is 'no' then it doesn't matter which relgion or philosphy one follows as long as one is a good human being.
Use your logic quoting from any book does not make what you say necesarily right.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 27, 2000).]
Agreed with you bubble buster on the Quotes from the Holy Quran, but, we still cant say or refer to a religious figurehead as a phuddo / kafir. Let Allah( SWT) be the judge. After all the pope follows one of the books revealed by Allah(SWT).
This is a different age, you can quote everything from the Glorious Quran, but people will not even think a second and shunn it, especially our own muslims. Hindus, I am not worried about, you can expect it from them.
Regards
What are we talking about here, two different races or two different creations, Muslims and Non-Muslims. When ever I spoke with a non-muslim I did not see any difference between him and me, they are human just like us and created by same God. We are all created by same God and It's impossible for me to believe that the same God will tell us to Kill other person or hate him or call him with names if he has different believes. The Islam I understood gave freedom of speach and freedom of believe. I follow a prophet which told us not to call other peoples with names, he told us not to Kill any person because of his believes.
I am agree with NYA on Pope issue, unfortunatly I can't find any Muslim leader who has the same feelings for Non-Muslims. I remember same Pope once invited the leaders of all religeons to come and sit together on common platforms and cooperate with each other on issues where we have no differences. The shocking thing is that this came out of a Non-Muslim person not from a Muslim when it is one of the teaching of Islam.
It was the Prayers of a FANI in the way of God which brought a revolution in the deserts of Arabia and changed the heart of Peoples. No, it was not because
Rasool-e-Khuda nay Talwar Uthai aur Sara Arab Musalman Hoo Geya.
It's up to you what ever you believe.
johnd,
today the popedome is a lame duck w/o any real world influence and hence he's busy preaching love & peace and issuing apologies...may be to stay in business. When popayet did have significant influence a few centuries back, pope was busy romancing the stone....tell me the name of the pope who apologized for the massacre of Muslims after the fall of Jerusalem or for watever happened to Muslims of Spain (happy April Fool!, remember?)
Now with societies moving towards a complete materialistic approach & pope left in the corner, how much difference would it make to my or ur life if pope invited figureheads from all religious representations for a chit chat session?
KK,
Believe me he is not my mentor, I know what ever he did is more political than religious. I am only supporting the idea of a making of a Society and that came from a non-muslim where it suppose to come from a muslim, may be with a political motivation and there is nothing wrong with that. This called HIKMAT. Islam is the only religeon which teachs HIKMAT. Now, HIKMAT for this time is not to run after your enemies with a Gun or a Bomb, this is not always a right Hikmat. HiKmat is not to Bomb and Kill innocent peoples to get revenge, that's called Terrorism.
Now on apologing issue, I don't care if he does or does not apologize to muslims. We don't need his apology, we are not depending on his apology. Who cares. Don't kill your self for an apology from a POPE, we don't need his apology. But still I think we should not call him by names. He is a supereme leader of a Sect and should be respected accordingly.
[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
**Dear Zman,
Ask Bubbly, he knows who I am referring to.
If you carefully read my response, I suggested at some point that there is no single/visible leader of Islam that can be matched to Pope (not to suggest any Catholic superiority over Islam), but there is just no single Leader. If there is one, the title suggested by Refrigerator will suit that leader well for having people like Refrigerator and Bubble Boy follow him.
Kapish?
**
[/quote]
Man you are stupid, I educate you that there is no clergy in Islam and no evangalism in Islam. Who give a hoot to Pope except you? :)
Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."
[This message has been edited by X2 (edited March 28, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**Bubble buster,
Very interesting so according to Islam the world is divided into two catogories believers and Kaffirs. Kaffirs will be punished because they fail to please Allah. Do you think true God cares whether anybody pleases him or not...if the answer is 'yes' then God is no different then mortals and if your answer is 'no' then it doesn't matter which relgion or philosphy one follows as long as one is a good human being.
Use your logic quoting from any book does not make what you say necesarily right.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 27, 2000).]**
[/quote]
Rani baby :)
Would you like to debate with me with REASON AND LOGIC using forensic and empirical results about any or all religions. I don't give a hoot to any stupid opinion, like yours, which in no more than a brain fart in public?
Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."
[quote]
Originally posted by zman:
**Agreed with you bubble buster on the Quotes from the Holy Quran, but, we still cant say or refer to a religious figurehead as a phuddo / kafir. Let Allah( SWT) be the judge. After all the pope follows one of the books revealed by Allah(SWT).
This is a different age, you can quote everything from the Glorious Quran, but people will not even think a second and shunn it, especially our own muslims. Hindus, I am not worried about, you can expect it from them.
Regards**
[/quote]
zman: Words of wisdom from BB :)
The pursuit of knowledge is a divine commandment for every Muslim :)Got that?
ONE LEARNED MAN IS HARDER ON DEVIL
THAN A THOUSAND IGNORANT WORSHIPPERS!
Noble Quran 3:19! Truly, the religion with Allâh is Islâm. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, then surely, Allâh is Swift in calling to account.
NOTE: The names Christian/Christianity and Jews/Judaism does not exist in Torah and Bible nor in both book there is a single verse which says that religion of Allah/God is Christianity or Judaism. Both names have no divine inspiration.
Noble Quran 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh]. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."
NOTE: zman...Think again my friend after reading both verses above. Can you see the divine inspiration. Also see verse 5:3 in Noble Quran.
To Pope's supporters, read the following very carefully:
Noble Quran 4:159! And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians),,] before his 'Iesa (Jesus) >> or a Jew's or a Christian's] death] (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he 'Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
Noble Quran 4:171! O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs.]
NOTE: zman, Allah has already decided and declared 1420 years before. But one can't argu with ignorant. That some Muslims demonstrate on such forums. What you and some Muslims are saying is a form of Kufr. Read my buddy Irrefragable's post on that from Tafseer Ibne Khatir. Irrefragable and I can beat any one on theology/religions any time and any where.
If you want more proof I will give you. Take Quran off the "Taaq" and read it.
Noble Quran 16:125-126! Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islâm) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'ân) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.126.And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allâh), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.)].
Noble Quran 2:256! There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût] and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
Peace :)
Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."
[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited March 28, 2000).]**