Can We Trust Hindu?

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HI All:
Indian pime minister is in Pakistan on our prime minister’s invitaion. Both sides are talking friendship and cooperation between two countries. But are we ready to trust the hindu after reviewing the past? I would not go very far into the history. Last year April and May 98, I happened to be in Pakistan on my vacations when India tested its nuclear weapon ability. Pakistan has not tested its nuclear power yet because of the pressure from other countries. Indian leadership thought that Pakistan might not have the nuclear ability, so every day was a threat to Pakistan from India. Every one in Indian Government was talking about to teach a big leasson to Pakistan. Indian army started moving towards Pakistan’s borders and the situation was getting worst and worst because of the leadership in India. Every day was like we were going to be attacked by India any moment. One night the circumstances had gone too far that Pakistan’s security forces had to wakeup the Indian embassador after 1.00am to convey a quick mesage to his country’s leadership to stop forwarding of Indian army toward Pakistan. And Pakistan had to conduct the Nuclear tests for the safty and security of the country. And as soon as Pakistan tested the Nuclear power ability, the tune of the Indian leadership changed in minutes and they started talking friendship and cooperation. The bottomline of my all discussion comes into a question that “Could we trust the people who tried to crush their neighbor thinking that the neighbor was weak?” And as soon as found out the strength of the neighbor, they started talking peace, friendship and no war pacts? Would we have to conduct the Nuclear tests in the future again to bring the India to the table? Is India a trustworthy neighbor? I leave it for you guys and gals to decide.

I am a jeweler, I set the significance of the jewels and throw the insignificant into the trash, these are my Quality Standards

[This message has been edited by msaqibj (edited February 21, 1999).]

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Our forefathers knew that the hindus are not trustworthy, which is also evident from a very famous proverb:

"Baghal main churee, munh par ram ram"

The indians will only respect a strong Pakistan or for that matter any strong neighbour. Please dont forget the states of hyderabad and Junna garh which were forcefully occupied by the india immediately after the independence even though people from those states were in favour of Pakistan, but at that time no one could help them and they are very weak themselves and the result is crystal clear.

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Hello folks,
I was just reading the report on indian premier's arrival at wahga......
Human beings are mistrustful to begin with,,, its safer that way . Trust has to be earned.
People in the subcontinent, have a long history of mistrust , and i am sure there are reasons behind it .ON BOTH ENDS.
We have to accept responsibility for what we have done to propagate that atmosphere. Unfortunately its very easy to blame the other side as just " BAD", which means we dont have to look at ourselves , something that we as illetrate pakistanis are not good at anyway...
If I was an Indian hindu , I would find it hard to trust a muslim , who historically plundered my places of worship,,,and are now rioting gainst the meeting of high officials....
If we cant trust them , they cant trust us either.It has to start somewhere , if we can't get a handle of our own paranoia , and start with confidence building measures....status would stay the same...
We all agree that good relationship with our neighbours is essential for progress....so what are we doing to improve it...how are we helping the indians to trust us.???..
I agree that the roots of mistrust are deep , but it only means that we have to work harder to get it back....
In my opinion , we as pakistanis are actually less open to it than indians.....our very identity is formed around disindentification from indians...." WE are opposite of indians"....this certainly isnt a good attitude...
msaqibj,
I can feel what it would have been like after the blasts,,,,but we have to keep in mind that it was a product and extention of the prevailing attitude...I wonder what we would have done , if we were exactly in their position...not much different I am afraid....
There is a phenomenon of self fulfilling prephesy...meaning ,,we dont trust them ,,and they feel it too,,,they guard against that feeling , we sense them being guarded and scream, see they dont trust us,,,,it is happening on both sides..we have to improve ourselves to get things better..
bottom line....there is mistrust on both sides , for good reasons....Its in the best interest of both sides to have good relationship...and we both have to see our role in it and start change from within...

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No, Pakistan should not trust Hindu, they should rather continue to trust Americans who have finally returned the money for F-16's.

Pakistan can't trust Iran either. Iranians don't take loss in the war in the sportive spirit and accuse Pakistanis of killing the diplomats. Come on, you supported one faction , pak supported other, Pak team won, take it easy and get a life you morons.

Pak can't trust these bloody Arabic countries. Pak is only Islamic nuclear power and these people say they will give free money to Pak only if IMF approves. Idiots! don't know Islam.

Alas! If only the only neighbor of Pakistan were USA, there would be no problem.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited February 21, 1999).]

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Jak:
I agree with you and I have not forgotton the States of Hyderabad and Junna garh at all. I did not brign this into my discussion because that was a different topic.
I think the people who think that indian Prime Minister is in Pakistan becasue he wants good relationship with his neighbor are either wrong or innocent. He is in Pakistan because ViceRoys of both countries (American ambassadors in Pakistan and India) wanted him to go to Pakistan and they wanted Pakistani prime Minister to welcome him.
Nova:
I really appriciate your discussion and I respect your views and your emotions but again can we trust them what they are saying.
I know the sincere people like you want peace in that reagion and I am standing with you in that line. I want peace and development in that region as much as you want.
My point was not if they trust on us or not,
My question was "Should WE trust the hindus?"

After seeing the worst violation of human rights in the history in Kashmir.
After loosing Juna Ghar and Hyderabad which were occupied forcefully by Indian forces against the will of the local people?
After all that bloodshed being taken place in Kashmir?
After all that insulting (I would not use the other words) of my sisters and mothers in Kashmir?
"Should we Still Trust Hindu?"

*I am a jeweler, I set the significance of the jewels and throw the insignificant into the trash, these are my Quality Standards*

[This message has been edited by msaqibj (edited February 21, 1999).]

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Adaab PG,

Hmm! "...finally returned the money for
F-16s."
I suggest you put emphasis on the word "Finally" and keep in consideration the fact that the money was returned with NO INTEREST paid, which is violative under the Law of Contracts, International Business Transactions, International Treaties, which govern such transactions and just against the very core of the rules of doing business!

Unfortunately, there is always much more than meets the eye in the international political arena of whealing and dealing.

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My earlier post is sarcastic. Sorry for a bad attempt at sarcasm.

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Got you PG!! ;)

By the way Dear Admin.,

this is a very interesting thread and even though it is straying towards politics it should stay right where it is.

Some of us are very controversial and liberal thinkers and do tend to bring politics, religion and any other "never to be mentioned" issues in almost all are discussions!! ;)
Therefore, so, long as the heading/topic is not specifically Religious or Political AND members aren't slinging mud at each other, threads should go on where ever they started......
Thnxs

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I really appreciate the posting of Nova.....he seems to atleast understand that there is an other side to it. I agree with him that there is mistrust on BOTH sides and I think it'll be there for a long time. This does not mean that we must not take any efforts towards normalization....even though they are token gestures. So Pakistanis are only as suspicious of Indians as Indians are of Pakistanis (I prefer NOT to use the words "Hindus" and "Muslims"). It's surprising to note the number of people here using the words "Hindus" to refer to Indians. In India even the most communal person would not make such general statements. Even Bal Thackeray uses the word "Pakistanis" in his statements and NOT "Muslims".

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I cant understand one thing, and I guess wont ever be able to either.

Why do people start such delicate topics anyway, when all of us know that its not gonna change nothing?

I guess its becoming more of a "TIME PASS" for most of now.

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This may not be true. For example, if a Hindu has tried to borrow 100$ from msaqibj, he can decide, from these post if he can trust. So discussion may be useful.

P.S. On the contrary, it seems that Hindus have been trusting the trustworthy Muslims. According to msaqibj, Indian govt. occupied junagarh and hyderabad against the wishes of local people. Now majority of local perople in these provices were Hindu. So Hindus must have thought that govt. of Pakistan will treat them very well. Compare this with the Muslims of pakistan who keep saying the govt. does not treat even Muslim people well at all.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited February 21, 1999).]

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Can we trust our 'muslim' leaders?

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For your kind information India is not a Hindu Country!!!, in india maximum number of muslims lives than any other country.
for example Indians cricket team captain is a muslim and every indian like him.... we believe in human being only and our country's constitusion gives equal right to everyone irrepective of religon.

[This message has been edited by sg (edited February 21, 1999).]

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SomeBody nswer Zainab's Question.

I cant cuz I aint got no Muslim Leader, except for our Prophet(PBUH) ofcourse.

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oh ok i was out of my mind like always. Yeah whatever.... let me rephrase my question:
Can we trust the paki govt which is run by so called muslims? (If i am not wrong msaqib meant the indian govt and a normal hindu person has nothing to do with it...he is as helpless as us pakis)

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Just for the record PG, Hyderabad and Juna Garh states were not the hindu majority states and were ruled ruled by the muslims at that time.

Sg: you may be right but what is the percentage of that muslim population in the total indian population?

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Guys, Guys and gals, Please do not take it hard, it is just a topic to discuss.

Rubiya Nur:
Thanks for pointing out that this is a political topic. When I posted it, I had no intention to talk about polititics. But you can not (I would never like to) stop the GUPPEES to express their views in thier style.

Cancer:
Sometime importance takes the preferences over the delicacy.

BombayKid, PG, SG.
I understand your frustration and anger. You have all rights to be mad at me for starting this thread.
To answer your questions and keeping this thread not to be so political, I might not discuss this in detail but anyhow
SG:
I never said that India is a Hindu country and it is for Hindus. I meant the people who are ruling over the India. Are they trustworthy?
BombayKid:
I intentionally used the word Hindus instead of Indians because I wanted to mention the ruling class in India.

PG:
thanks for explaining that the majority of the JunaGhar and Hyderabad was Hindus at the time when those states decided to join the Pakistan not India. India had fairly stronger army under the command of their british rulers. Does by having strong army than your neighbors give you a right to occupied the neighbor's territories.
If you again insist that India did that because the majority of the population of those areas were Hindus then How would you explain the Indian invasion of Kashmir while majority of the population in Kashmir is Muslim?

PG:
You made my question more easy to understand for the others by mentioning Junaghar and Hyderabad's invasion by the Hindus. It makes it clear that when Hindus are stronger, they could invade their neighbor's right and when their neighbor gets strength, they come to the table talk. So in this Circumstances, "CAN We Trust the Hindus?"

Zainab:
Sounds like you stole the topic of my next discussion in line, chooor kahieen Keee (Just kidding Yaar). That is a very interesting and wonderful question. Please go ahead and start a thread with a topic similar to your question and I would discuss this over their in detail.

Folks:
Again, please do not take it hard and no harm and insult is being seeking under this topic to any group or religion. All I want is that under the circumstances, I mentioned, "Should we or Shouldn't we trust our neighbor country's Ruling class?"

Admins:

When I started this topic, I did not have any intention to discuss the politics here. My purpose was to discuss the character of ruling class in neighbor country. But if you think that this discussion is out of the boundaries of the "General" forum, you have my all support to lock or close this topic. I would abide by your policies and rules with open mind. I would not requst to let it go because requesting for something like this is against my principles too.

*I am a jeweler, I set the significance of the jewels and throw the insignificant into the trash, these are my Quality Standards*

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a) I am not mad at you, ms, your opinions are one of the most popular among Pakistanis. Why just try to be politically correct and avoid word Hindu or whatever? Say it the way you want to. That way it is good to pose the question the way you did.

b)Coming back to Junagarh and Hydbd., JAK, I checked in encyclopedia britanica that state of hyderabad was indeed Hindu majority. No mention of Junagarh in it. Lot of people in Karachi are from Hyderabad, so you can check up with older people. I don't think Nizam was very nice with Hindus either.

c) Now, ms, you are right that India took a maximalist stand by saying that Hydb. and Junagarh are their because people are Hindu and kashmir is their because king is hindu. All the same, Pakistan took a maximalist stand by saying that kashmir is their because people are muslim and Junagard and hydbd. are their because king is muslim. So none took a logically correct stand. In fact if what JKLF says is true and if sadar patel indeed offered exchange of hydbd. with Kashmir and Pak rejected, pak took idiotic stand.

d) On use of power when stuation permits and against people's wishes, pakistan state has been no better. Have a look a Afghanistan, non pushtoon minorities have been systematically killed and Pakistan has total proxy control of Afghan state by power alone. This is the fight only with Muslims. The situation that led to Bangladesh formation is another pointer. Ther was a brutal use of force to stop east pakistani leadership to come to power. In fact the number killed by indian army in kashmir is not even a fraction of fraction of what Pak did in east Pakistan.

d) The point in saying all this is that their is no point in taking a high moral stand. The facts do not say that any of the states have been very moralistic or following people's wishes or not using force or whatever.

e) Now one has to take a practical stand and find a solution out of the impasse and let people live. With 53% budget spent on serving debt and 25% on defence, Pakistani economy has come to brink of disaster. Army has become all to powerful and with 25 of last 50 years ruled by army, army has been more brutal to people than with enemy. In fact it is Pakistan who need to intensify efforts to solve the problem through dialogue, since India loses nothing in status quo.

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msaqibj,

Instead of asking this question, why don't you ask: do we trust each other? The way we behave here after watching a Pakistani, indicates, height of mistrust among ourselves. Let me ask you another question do you trust your leaders? History showed that they have compromised the integrity of this unfortunate country for personal gains. We lost East Pakistan not because of India but because of s.o.bs leaders of that time.

I think this is the time that Pakistan should break the ice and improve the relations with India which is beneficial for both the countries. As a first step, abolish the visa between two countries and allow free movement of goods after striking a free trade agreement. ($5 billions worth of goods are smuggled each year between the two countries without paying a single penny as taxes to either government)

Sincerely,

Farid M

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You’re right. This has become a political discussion. Interesting... but purely politics in theme.

Please take it there.