Najim Jee, is it wrong to try to find out why people do these things?
Personally I have no problem with casual sex as i have no-one but myself to answer to (i am already divorced at this tender age of 26!) but i worry for all those poor girls who get talked into true love and marriage promises and then get dumped!
Tariq Jee, stay around I feel happy that at least girls can also seek revenge but how come the nice guys or the nice girls are the ones that lose out and not the selfish people??
MahaRaja if you are entering the marriage with suspicions against your wife - don't bother! Your marriage is a disaster before it has begun.
How about I ask you all to reply in honesty and directly (without lying) - would each of you marry the Pakistani Girl you had slept with or would you think she was not good enough to enter your family??
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"How about I ask you all to reply in honesty and directly (without lying)"
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I would have no qualms marrying a girl who I have slept with, if I had slept with one before marriage. With regards to being good enough to enter my family. I live with my wife and child and not with my parents. My wife and I lasted about a year living together with my parents and sisters. We left in bitter circumstances and I am currently the black sheep of the family, but I digress.
My heart goes out to you. I know how you feel -- believe me. I had a five year jump on you.
Your question shall always remain valid and few will be able to answer it publicly and honestly. The truth of the matter is that it takes a lot of courage to stand up for what you believe/want. And social pressure often wins when it comes to the decision making process for guys that are involved with their potential partners prior to marriage. (btw, not getting to far into the topic as you'll start to hear the bitterness, but I fall directly into the "poor girls" classification -- he had plenty enough guts to put a ring on my finger and commit but didn't have the strength to face pressure from his family and follow through). Khair, that's another story. (Farouq may remember him from SCP)
The total sum of the equation is still not clear to me. Frustration/aggravation rules supreme. Everything is alright -- as long as it is happening to somebody else's son. In fact it becomes a "valiant, admirable and honorable" thing if somebody else's son marries a divorcee (e.g. kitna acha kaam kiya -- bechaari ka koi sahaara na tha aur uss nay shaadi kar lee -- and other foolish excuses) however, when it comes to their own son . . .well, he deserves better.
When I find the way out I'll let you know Nazia. But you know what they say . . . Allah nay humaray liyay kuch acha hee soch rakha ho ga . . .
hmmm ... Nazia ... you have a wrong approach here ... you are not answerable to yourself only ... but to supreme authority as well ... and what would your child think of you if he knows what had you been doing in your youth??? Wouldn't he be learning the same thing and wont follow you???????? I already mentioned it ... these are the sensitive matters of life ... you have to be very careful about these .... or perhaps you will say ya .. you dont have any problem with your son/daughter if he/she is doing casual sex. Toba Astaghfaar. Allah say darna chahyay, kal ko ussay bhee munh dikhana hay.
Nazia: Sorry I missed the last part of your message, I think I have already answered it ... Mistakes can be forgiven but habit are not. I personally think that human being does mistakes, but does adopt habits. If a girl has adopted the habit of sleeping around (or was sleeping around) then I would say ... NO NO and NO. She cannot be trusted but if she admits ya it was a mistake, then ya there shouldn't be a problem marrying her. Now if by any chance my Mum gets to know all my ideas she might kick me out of her house because she wont accept a girl "with a mistake" ... she has zero tolerance in this matter.
You "feel happy that at least girls can also seek revenge"!!. Achcha sahib, yay saray zamanay kay murdon ka revenge mujh say kiyun liya ja raha that.
Anyway, your question demands some serious thinking. Yes, one should marry that girl. And weird may it sound, but some men do marry the girl, they had relationship with. Now don't take me wrong here, my friend. I am not here to act as a defense attorney for men. But I want to tell you few things.
Think about this. What is virginity? Is it a physical change in body or just a state of mind. For a man (unfortunately), its none of the above. In a premarital relationship, most men consider sex as nothing but a part of the process of knowing each other (I am not defending men, here. I know that it sounds stupid, but that is how it is). For a woman (specially Pakistani woman), sex is the conclusion of a relationship, more of a commitment. With all humor aside, this is the essence.
Woman: I think that I want to spend my life with you. Lets have sex.
Man: Lets see if I should spend my life with you. Lets have sex.
And then again, not all men, dont marry their girl friends. At least 50% of them do.
I am sorry that this is all I can tell you. I know that confession is not the solution. But the situation is not that bad. There are many many good men out there. And I am sure that at least one of them has your name written on his forehead (hehe, must be looking real stupid with NAZIA written all over his forehead). And you dont have to go out and find him. He will find you.
Muzna:
May be he was not the man enough, have strngth to carry the ring and not courage to go throuhg the presuure. Allah has his own ways of getting even with these kind of guys, we don't have that vasteness of mind to comprehend the situation.
Nazia:
I am really sorry to hear about your situation. I am from a big family and have nearly all kind of situations and problems and everything.
HHHMMMMMMM
Would I marry My Pakistani Girlfriend?
First of all I can very proudly say (and had challanged my friends in Pakistan to prove me wrong)I NEVER EVEN SLIGHTLY GOT INVOLVED WITH ANY GIRL. Why? Very simple the same problems you been mentioning and same aftermaths. I was taught to take care of problem before it araises and BETTER DON'T LET IT ARAISE.
Would I do now? If I am the only person, and I am the one who convinced her to do so, YES. (I am stressing that I am the one and only, not one of her other friends she has been sleeping around with and I just happened to be next). Honestly I would not put myself in any situation where I am going to be regretfull while sitting in my family. Once again very proudly, Shukar Alhamd U Lilah, I have saved myself and I am saving myself, and everyday I pray to Allah to give me the strength to be this way.
Allah Hafiz
In our traditional culture and perhaps relegion women are not seen as complete human beings. They are veiwed as objects or property. Wellcome to hell ladies. They are symbols of honor wealth and family.Women who have been intimate with another man before are according to our backward culture damaged goods.The virgin complex is deeply rooted in our relegion as well. Even the Qoran speaks of pure virgins the beleievers will get in paradise. Somehow purity has been related to sexual abstinance.
Frankly as for my self I would actually prefer a wife who has been with somebody before. She would know the dynamics of a relationship, she would also apreciate me more perhaps as compared to a " I saved my self for you now feed me " type of a girl.
OK OK let me clarify that although i have nothing against casual sex it does not mean that i will jump into bed with anyone at all - i still have morals!
At the risk of appearing as if I am "picking and choosing" yet again . . . I would like to make a couple of my (hopefully) last comments in this thread. . .
Tariq: I agree with your analysis of the reasons why men and women engage in premarital sex. Yes, women do consider it the "seal" to a relationship. And this is precisely why they become so irate and confused when that relationship falls apart or is forfeited by the man.
But if men participate on the pretense that sex is a part of the process of getting to know each other then the question of why do they not want to "get to know" their virgin brides-to-be prior to the marriage? Khair . .
You have also mentioned that at least 50% of the men do marry the girl with whom they have been involved . . .may I correct this to read, "50% of the men I HAVE COME ACROSS do."? And I suggest this change because I don't believe that this is a true statistic. It falls under that category where, in our community, with the concept of premarital sex being taboo, the real numbers never come to light.
Mohsan: Thank you for your words. They are reassuring. Only one thing that I would beg to differ with you on:
"May be he was not the man enough," -- I don't believe that keeping one's word is a qualifying factor to confirm an individual's manhood. Making good on a commitment is an admirable character trait in any human being -- irrespective of gender. Don't you agree?
Next, with respect to your comment:
" If I am the only person, and I am the one who convinced her to do so, YES. (I am stressing that I am the one and only, not one of her other friends she has been sleeping around with and I just happened to be next)." -- Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't this once again insinuate that she must be a virgin? And what if she convinced you rather than you taking the initiative?
Nazia: Thank you for being honest and nobody hates you. Please believe that.
Superman: You've managed to sum up the issue in a clear and concise manner. Thanks again.
Please you don't have to beg, you are making me embarassed. What I said was not pointing toward his physical strength, but mental strength and willingness to fullfill the commitment. A man could be seven foot high but have a heart of a mice. Thats what I meant .
My other commet, yes you can take them in that contest, I did not mean that, but in the same sentence I mentioned (I am explaining) that I would not be under any obligation if for her I am just another or next. I have to think about it long and hard.
What if she convinced me? Hmm. The situation is totally different, if she want to continue the relation and want to take it to next level, I will work on it. It will totally depend on her intentions. That means I will do everything in my power to fullfill my commitment.
In reality these are the main thoughts that have kept me from exploring this vanue of life.
Nazia: Of course you have morals, these are disturbing you and that is why you are asking these questions. Isn't that so?
Sorry to jump into the discussion but i have something to say. First of all, "those" Pakistani guys who sleep with Pakistani girls never ever have it in any corner of their mind that they would marry this girl, why?? Cuz it is the Pakistani culture that if a girl sleeps with a guy before marriage then she is a bad character girl and the guy thinks if she can sleep with me then she can do it with anyone. Millions of times i have heard Pakistani girls crying their eyes out that "but he promised me he would marry me." But by now, it has become a known fact that Pakistani guys don't marry girls who they sleep with before marriage, it is engraved in their heads. They always dump that girl and marry someone else, this happens every day among desi girls. It has nothing to do with if he was man enough or not, it has to do with Pakistani culture where double standard is crystal clear, usually Pakistani men think that their virginity means nothing cuz they are so called men, the superior species and women if even touched by another man is dirty and bad character. If you look at it from God's words, He says no premarital sex for men and women but the culprit is the culture.
I don't know what you mean Nazia by "In the West a guy thinks....." This problem is more prominent in Pakistan than West, girls there have sex with their boyfriends and when they get dumped by the guy, they can't even go to theiir parents and complain, not that Pakistani girls can complain about this issue in the West, but usualy girls are left with no family support, scarred emotionally, and then in the end, they end up marrying whoever their parents choose for them. So in essense, a girl is a victim here. But i do get angry at desi girls that if they know their culture so well, then they know what the outcome would be, why they choose such a path??? I wish they stop acting like victims and instead of complaining in the end that he did this or that to me, take responsibility of their actions, if you are going to have sex, then accept what the final outcome would be. I always hear girls putting the blame on guys, ofcourse he never put a gun on your head and made you do it.
Sex is suppose to be a scared thing and should be shared between two people who are committed to each other and if there is no commitement, then these peoblems always arise.
If someone doesn't have any problem with casual sex then he/she shouldn't have any problem with these type of social problems because he she chooses this path. Baee jo bona hay wohee katna hay naa .... Bo ga Tamatar to katna bhee tamatar hee padain ga .... Kaddo nahee.
At least I wont marry a girl who doesn't have problem with casual sex. Its a habit, not mistake. I dont involve myself in sexual relationships. I mean to say .... I would have to trust her that if I am away for little while in course of business or job .... she doesn't involve herself with someone.
I think Marriage is a compromise, dont give a chance to your wife to say that your are in relationship with someone and obviously to fulfil it you have to be honest with your wife having no such relationship.
These are sensitive matters ... they constitute the paternity and other legal and heiredatory rights what if she is pregnant of someone else and tells me that it is my child ... NO I can't live with such type of woman for a moment even .... if I can restrict myself to my wife why can't she herself to me ??????
I agree with Sumbal, and I have mentioned it somewhere as well .... girl can simply refuse to sleep with a man .... she is not under and pressure to do it .... but I think men should have to restrict them as well "not to commit this stupid act of sex". There should be a difference between human and animal .... have you ever seen dogs getting married?
I think the prevailing mentality here is that a girl who is not a virgin becomes a sex maniac. Now that she has done it once she just can't get eneough! So now she is on a hunt and will lie cheat and even sacrifise her domestic life for another sexual episode.
Just like tennis sex has now become her new hobby, an evil seductress on the prowl.
Also this "another man's child" theory is hilarious as it is ridiculous.A non virgin, girl will not start bearing children,from other men as soon as she ties the knot. A woman liberal eneough to engage in sex before marriage will probably marry the man of her choice. She will like any other woman work to make her marriage strong.
Gentlmen, please face your hypocrassy with an honest mind. Don't rationalize your prejudice. Deal with it.
Mohsan:
Beg? I'm sorry, I don't have a clue what you are referring to . . .
Najim:
"not to commit this stupid act of sex"
Who are you quoting? Who said this sentence? I'm just curious . . .
This thread is getting all mixed up. We started out talking about virginity and double standards . . .okay for men not okay for women . . .and today we are discussing casual sex (which nobody was encouraging, including Nazia), paternity issues (a sign of mistrust stemming from an individual's own insecurities), infidelity and the role of the seductress.
Any one of these topics has enough subject matter and variation in personal opinion to warrant it's own discussion thread.
Can we please re-focus on the original question posted by Nazia and make relevant closing statements?