Can a trust...

Re: Can a trust...

I think the difference is in the way of thinking. I remember a study done by Stanford University on (Un)Acceptablity of Betrayal, it talks about male and female from young adults to grown up and how they react when a betryal is done. Also about the betrayal of friendship and in a sexual relationship. The result showed a double standard judged by males. It said that sexual betrayal by male transgressors is much more acceptable than sexual betrayal by female transgressors. The interesting part of the research was that young adult women no longer accept the double standard-- they report that sexual betrayal is unaccceptable regardless it is carried out by male or female transgressors.

What you are trying to say is that females who are betrayed shouldn't feel bad as it is his fault only and what I am trying to say is that regardless of age or sexual orientation one should look at the possiblities of betrayal. May be the justification surrounds the acceptablity of betrayal like lack of sexual acitivity, communication and understanding etc. By asking yourself these question one would be able to actually understand what they were not able to provide their partner or friend in that relationship. If they don't find any solid reason then you can say that it is their fault. If you find one then you can reform yourself and look for imporvments, which is a part of 'growing up' process.

Re: Can a trust...

I think trust can almost never be reformed...Suspicion, which once grafts itself in the human heart is almost impossible to relinquish...

And once when trust is broken, everything is broken...The attraction, the belief, the carefree mind...It is all washed away in one instance of mistrust...

It is so hard to define...

Re: Can a trust…

I’m sorry i still can’t believe that the person who has been lied to, had some fault in it…females or males that have been betrayed are innocent and the one who committed the act is guilty, so he/she shud feel bad not the other way round…one example i can think of, that seems like a way both wud be responsible is if, say one partner is refusing to have sex with them and so he/she goes and cheats on them (sexually)…in this situation, yes i think the person who was cheated on does have to look and question themself…cos afterall they took away something from their partner and so he/she just went out and got it from someone else…both parties wud be at fault…one for being selfish i guess and the other for cheating when instead they shud have talked about their problems…other than stuff like this…if u have been betrayed, in most cases u cannot be at fault (in my eyes), good reason given by the betrayer or not …i guess ur rite, the difference is in the way of thinking and wot works for u doesn’t for me…

Re: Can a trust…

Even if someone refuses to sleep with her partner, it’s still no excuse for him to go cheat on her. It still wouldn’t be her fault, but his own. Normally in Islam a woman under normal circumstances isn’t allowed to refuse her husband, but some people abuse that rule and don’t care if she’s ill or too tired or maybe he doesn’t treat her well. That rule should be well understood and applied to in a righteous manner. It’s always interpreted as if the wife has no say at all and has to do everything her husband wants, they should talk about that and come to an understanding. Her feelings on this topic should be considered too. Then there wouldn’t be problems of this kind between them.

Re: Can a trust…

sadya, i agree that if someone refuses, it’s still no excuse for he/she to cheat on them…i know that it wudn’t be the person who has been betrayed’s fault…it is the betrayer who is to blame, that is wot i’ve been saying to Man with a Plan but he seems to disagree…so i was just throwing out an example of somehow, maybe there cud be a situation where both parties wud be to blame, and that’s the only one that came to my mind…there is no excuse for cheating…but in the situation i gave earlier, i said that they SHUD have talked about their problems…instead they were both being selfish in their own ways…other that that, i always think that it’s the cheater who is at fault, end of story, as i have said before…as far as the Islam issue goes…well, i wasn’t even speaking from an Islamic standpoint but am well aware of the point u made about wot rules Muslim wives and husbands are supposed to follow…if we were to bring religion into it then it wud be another story, and that wud be easy cos cheating is prohibited in Islam…i wasn’t saying it from any religous view, just generally…but i was just trying to make him (Man with a Plan) understand y i thought it wasn’t the fault of the person who had been cheated on, but in fact the betrayer’s…sorry if u thought that i was disrespecting Islam’s view about how the wife has no say…and i agree (and said before) that had they talked about their problems, then this situation wudn’t have arose.

Re: Can a trust...

Sorry, I should have asked what you meant exactly before jumping to any conclusions.

Re: Can a trust...

Sadya & KRD; sorry, but i don't agree!!

its like asking someone to stop eating! do u think anyone would do that ... NO .. like food, sex is a basic human need... u just cannot live without it! (leave exceptions). I have seen girls who cheated their husbands why? coz their hubbies were not their with them or they were unable to satisfy their partners.

I agree with man with a plan in some situations both parties are to blame.

PS: i am not talking about short term refusal here.

Re: Can a trust...

LONG term refusal without any GOOD and VALID reasons is wrong of course, but it still shouldn't result in one of the partners cheating. Allah gave both male and female the right to divorce.

Re: Can a trust...

it surely takes time but it's possible, but not always, things shouldn't be taken for granted.
But yeah, friendly gestures, actions help to improve the situation.

Re: Can a trust...

Oho....Man with a Plan!

When did I say it is acceptable ladies. Read my post again, all I am trying to say is that regardless of age or sexual orientation you should look at the possibilities that surrounds the area of acceptable betrayal. Let me try to you give some examples.

First one:

Everyone knows Actor Jude Law and what he did to his g/f. That is wrong and I believe that the girl shouldn't take any blame for that. Jude is a jerk because he knew that he was in a relationship and should have kept his trust with his g/f for not having sex with any other girl.

Second one:

Consider this, you have a couple where husband has a problem of gambling or drinking. The wife knows that, they are very short with money. When they get a pay check she gives all the money to her husband who spends is on drinking and gambling. Who is to blame? Don't you think the wife should ask her self the question why did he trusted him with the money when she knew he had a problem?

Third one:

Consider this, you have a couple where husband knows that his wife has a shopping problem. He is short with money and when getting the pay check gives all of the money to his wife who spends it on needless crap. Who is to blame? Don't you think the husband knowing that she has problem shouldn't have trusted her with that much money?

How both of these people will know this when they won't ask this question with themselves?

Sometimes people knowingly trust people too much or too little and that's why they are (sometimes) more than partially to be blame. That's why I said KRD your posts have too many grey areas. Trust is not always about sex, its about promise or a discreate information. If your friend can't keep that, you should be responsible enough not to tell them. The only thing I have said in this entire thread is that one should look at the possiblities of acceptable mistrust regardless of age or sex. Its call accountablity.

Re: Can a trust…

Well i’m sorry too…cos i can’t agree with u guys hehe!..If the husbands whose wives cheated on them, weren’t satisfying them then it still doesn’t give the wives the right to cheat on them…they shud go and talk to their husbands, not betray them…if talking it out doesn’t work then unfortunately divorce wud come into play, like sadya mentioned.

Again, some situations perhaps are such that both parties are to blame…but when one betrays the other (instead of approaching him/her) then that is wrong…in my eyes.

Re: Can a trust...

you should look at the possibilities that surrounds the area of acceptable betrayal
See that's the part i can't agree with.

Everyone knows Actor Jude Law and what he did to his g/f. That is wrong and I believe that the girl shouldn't take any blame for that. Jude is a jerk because he knew that he was in a relationship and should have kept his trust with his g/f for not having sex with any other girl.

Yep, i totally agree with u on this one.

Consider this, you have a couple where husband has a problem of gambling or drinking. The wife knows that, they are very short with money. When they get a pay check she gives all the money to her husband who spends is on drinking and gambling. Who is to blame? **Don't you think the wife should ask her self the question why did he trusted him with the money when she knew he had a problem?

**Yes she shud ask herself, BUT in this thread i was talking about being lied to...if u have been lied to about something, then it is NOT ur fault, that's wot i've been trying to say all along...in this case, *she knew *and she still added to their problem.

**Consider this, you have a couple where husband knows that his wife has a shopping problem. He is short with money and when getting the pay check gives all of the money to his wife who spends it on needless crap. Who is to blame? Don't you think the husband knowing that she has problem shouldn't have trusted her with that much money?

**Again, if they know about their spouse's problem BEFORE they commit a betrayal that is another story...i was speaking about if a spouse does not know, then there is no possible way he/she is to blame.

**That's why I said KRD your posts have too many grey areas.

**Well i'm sorry if i wasn't clear, i was only speaking from the standpoint of a person who had been betrayed, who had no idea that something was going on, something was wrong, or that their relationship was lacking something...in which case, it's not their fault...the betrayer shud have approached their spouse rather than choosing to betray them.

**The only thing I have said in this entire thread is that one should look at the possiblities of acceptable mistrust regardless of age or sex. Its call accountablity.

*I just believe if u UNKNOWINGLY, are betrayed then it's not ur fault and there are not acceptable reasons...i understand wot u have said about the *other situations and that makes sense...but not if u have been lied to and u had no clue, then it can't be ur fault...in my eyes...but i agree to disagree with u on that :D

Re: Can a trust...

Dear Miss,

            I am not discussing what you are talking rather than what the topic is about. Trust is a bigger issue. It consists of marriage, love and friendship from men-women to men-men. The two situations that I presented show that yes there is a possiblity of acceptable betrayal where you know that your partner has a problem and when the mis-trust happens one should be able to accept their part of the fault. 

The unknowigly part that you are mentioning can have exceptions like being naive, trusting person too early that in end takes advantage of them etc. Also, if you don't know why do you trust that person to begin with? What you have presented is just one situation where the person cheats that is. Ofcourse if there was a girl who did that then it is her fault too. I don't think there is anything to discuss over there. One can make exceptions like if a person in that relationship men or women has certain issues with sex or communication and they have addressesd it with their partner. After that if the cheating happens you can say that the person, despite being hurt and cheated, should take accountablity.

Re: Can a trust...

No i believe it's the other way around...Marriage or love or friendship consists of trust.

I don't think that if u don't KNOW if someone is betraying u behind ur back, that it means u r naive or trusting them too early...

Like i have said before (maybe in another thread) that the reason u trust them in the first place is cos, going into the relationship, u give them that confidence, u don't know them that well at that point...so u give them the benefit of the doubt and don't suspect anything until they give u a reason to.

Yes i had presented *one *situation only...all i need is one, to show that when u have been lied to it's not ur fault...ur 2 examples r only about instances when one of the partners knows about their problem and ignore's it...that's not even a trust issue really...when i think about trust being broken, i think of situations when ppl have hid something, have lied etc...i see now that u think differently and u r entitled to ur opinion, as i am to mine...and i am sticking to wot i've said to u since post # 11.

Re: Can a trust…

The two examples talks about responsiblity that it might be your fault too. If those people give the money can say that it is not their fault. They trusted them, gave them a benefit of doubt etc but what I am trying to say that if you ask yourself a question that you have a hand in it or not, you’ll find that they do.

I never challenge your opinion if you look at my posts, you’ll see I am talking about much bigger issue than cheating.

Re: Can a trust…

you are right about discussing the issue with partner. But in our culture sex is considered taboo and even discussing it with your spouse is bad manners if not prohibitted. Even in educated famlies girls are not allowed to express their feelings coz they would be labeld as whores. Secondly, divorce is a serious crime in our culture and no one wanna get divorced specially girls. Eventhough u are right theoritically but in reality both of these are not easy to address and hence lead to short term betrayal (easy way out).

Re: Can a trust…

Yes ok, in those two examples u gave…both shud question themselves, cos both are at fault…and the thing i was saying about benefit of the doubt, was when i was referring to ur ? about y they wud trust one another in the start anyway…

I see u are talking about something that is “bigger” than cheating, and that is fine…but i don’t believe that if u don’t know anything (ur totally innocent), then u can’t of had a hand in it…so in the situation i first gave, i think it’s not the person who had been betrayed’s fault…and in the 2 u gave, i think ur rite, that they were both to blame.

Re: Can a trust…

Well i don’t see how discussing it privately with ur husband/wife is bad manners and i hardly believe it cud be prohibited…the problem is a personal one between the married couple and shud be dealt with accordingly, between them and no one else…the alternative, obviously (adultery, etc.) is wot is considered much worse, i think…

Well IF divorce is considered a serious crime in our *culture, *then personally i cudn't care less...it's not a crime in our *religion* (as far as i know) so that's all we need to be aware of...and of course no one *wants* to get divorced, but it happens...

I think perhaps u r talking about wayyy back in the days…thesedays, couples (with a good relationship) are very active in solving their own personal problems and i don’t think society or culture shuns them, cos they don’t even know (if the couple has kept their issues private)…besides, forget wot the problem is about, i think couples are encouraged to work out their problems thesedays…gone are the days when one spouse shoves dirt under the rug, and the other turns a blind eye :blush:

Re: Can a trust…

Yes. About your example I think it resembles ‘Jude Law’ situation alot where the guy is a serious nut case. I mean Sienna Miller?!?!? What in the world was he thinking?

I guess now, I have to wait and see, when she is ‘Ready to Date’ again :blush: :blush:

Re: Can a trust…

:hehe:
Yes, i think it does…but i like Sienna Miller! She’s a nice girl isn’t she, or do u know something about her i don’t hehe :smiley: