thats very noble to post a link to some site to prove ur point but its not applibale here. palestinians don’t have any army / weapons to confront isrealis. they are not allowed to have all that. so wht else is left for them to fight with except themselves. allow them to have an army and weapons and this will automatically side-line hamas and jihad groups.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EntityParadigm: *
thats very noble to post a link to some site to prove ur point but its not applibale here. palestinians don't have any army / weapons to confront isrealis. they are not allowed to have all that. so wht else is left for them to fight with except themselves. allow them to have an army and weapons and this will automatically side-line hamas and jihad groups.
[/QUOTE]
perfect.. just side step islam when it doesn't agree with what you think is the right thing to do..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EntityParadigm: *
well if you have kidz why don't you move them to palestine, then sit here and see wht will happen to them?
you are so passionate about muslims and innocent kids being killed. well are isrealis making any distinctions when they go on killing rampage in palestinian citys?
i don't support the killings of innocents be it the elders or kids but occupation must end. isreal must realize that its policy of aggression won't help anyone. ppl will keep on dyin on both sides. give palestinians their citys back. let them have a normal life to live. then we'll see if any body got killed on either side. you can't just sit and let ur ppl die. you have to hit back to show ur not defenseless.
[/QUOTE]
you just don't seem to be getting what i'm trying to say here. why does it matter what the israelis do? what matters is what you, me and the muslims do in response to it. do we go against Islam to get back at the Israelis? you seem to be saying yes ...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nomaan: *
perfect.. just side step islam when it doesn't agree with what you think is the right thing to do..
[/QUOTE]
sadly i don't have any version of islam to believe in. i believe in only one islam :~) i'm not side stepping any thing. article talks about troops, commanders and theior behavious. show troops, commanders or anything of such sort on palestinian side. show me that they have wapons and means to defend themselves without hamas and jihad's help. show me that their ppl are as prepared as isrealis and these acts of suicide bombing are useless. show me they have means to protect their ppl? if you can't show me all this then pls don't talk about islam infront of me. islam talks abt all that under various conditions. palestinians have nothing to defend themselves except their own selves. boths sides have lost innocents in this war and more will die if peace did not prevailed soon. but who will start? i don't see isrealis doing that. you can't talk abt peace and keep on killing ppl.
btw you didn't asnwer to my question regarding putting ur own kids in palestine. i'm sure isrealis won't kill them if they won't provoke them.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nomaan: *
you just don't seem to be getting what i'm trying to say here. why does it matter what the israelis do? what matters is what you, me and the muslims do in response to it. do we go against Islam to get back at the Israelis? you seem to be saying yes ...
[/QUOTE]
ur not getting wht i'm trying to say. it does not MATTER to YOU wht isrealis do to palestinians bcoz apparently your living a luxurious life in some western country where you have no threat of any kind. you haven't lost anyone so far this way so obviously it won't matter much to you wht isrealis do to palestinians. but when it comes to palestinian's actions, it does matter bcoz they are muslims and so are you. well if you are really concerned in that regards then as a muslim you have an obligation to help your brothers and sisters in need. are you willing to go there and fight for their just-cause? if NO then why? islam does ask us to help our brothers and sisters. or is it only about our blood-related bothers and sisters? :~)
Any news about the bus? Is it a total write-off, or any of it can be used for spare parts?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Gupta: *
Any news about the bus? Is it a total write-off, or any of it can be used for spare parts?
[/QUOTE]
From what I understand, it is totally destroyed. Just like any chance for an end to occupation.
Palestinian PM Cuts Ties With Militants](Yahoo News: Latest and Breaking News, Headlines, Live Updates, and More)
Abbas Vows Action Against Militants After Bombing](Yahoo News: Latest and Breaking News, Headlines, Live Updates, and More)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Perhaps turning over cities to the PA was a mistake as was freeing hundreds of prisoners. Hamas and Jihad must be disarmed for Israel to go forth with any further peace agreement, if the PA cannot do that then Israel must.
[/QUOTE]
The fact is that Israel tried to disarm groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad before 1992 (carrying out gross human rights abuses in the process), during the first intifada.
Israel failed, despite, going well beyond civilised behaviour and into downrigh brutish Nazi like thuggery in the process. Support for groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad is too deeply entrenched in Palestinian society for there to be any outcome other than voluntary disarmament.
The situation is known as stalemate. In fact, I would not be at all surprised if, should the Palestinians ever be allowed to elect a PM in a fair general election PM, they were to choose a Hamas representative to fill the role.
It's never safe to transport bombs on buses, one speed bump and it's all over.
Any collateral damage?
THe people who do this are not in it for peace. They want to drive Israel into the sea. But everytime they have tried that, Israel has only gotten stronger and larger. I think, ISrael needs to occupy some more land and make a DMZ between them and the arabs. Or just take over the region. Laaton key bhoot baaton sey nahin maantey.
^Baasi for maasi ...yawn.
Yeah but aint great China just great ;-)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by EntityParadigm: *
ur not getting wht i'm trying to say. it does not MATTER to YOU wht isrealis do to palestinians bcoz apparently your living a luxurious life in some western country where you have no threat of any kind. you haven't lost anyone so far this way so obviously it won't matter much to you wht isrealis do to palestinians. but when it comes to palestinian's actions, it does matter bcoz they are muslims and so are you. well if you are really concerned in that regards then as a muslim you have an obligation to help your brothers and sisters in need. are you willing to go there and fight for their just-cause? if NO then why? islam does ask us to help our brothers and sisters. or is it only about our blood-related bothers and sisters? :~)
[/QUOTE]
ok .. i've been to rallies here in montreal against the israeli occupation. i've donated as well. i don't have kids, so i won't take up your invitation.
It matters because most palestinians are muslims. and what they do reflects on all of us. killing women and children shows that islam says its ok to kill women and children. we know that is not true. that is my whole point. you seem to be arguing that if they kill, we will do it as well, lets just keep islam out of it.
my whole argument is that these suicide bombings are not aimed at the right people. first of all, i don't like the whole suicide bit, cuz thats what it is, suicide (not allowed in islam), but if they must do it, target the military, not civilians.
Many are still justifying the bombing as a response to occupation. What the h•ll was the "Roadmap" then? It was a potential solution. Part of it was to phase out occupation. So quit the BS. A plan was being implemented. Clearly this was and will never be enough for the terrorists.
So, apologists-was the roadmap inching toward a solution regarding occupation, or do terrorists reserve the right to kill children no matter what steps are taken until Israel is no longer. Stand up and be counted-will the solution to the problem only be the destruction of Israel?
The plan sets out to achieve this by 2005 in three stages. The first demands an immediate cessation of Palestinian violence, reform of Palestinian political institutions, the dismantling of Israeli settlement outposts built since March 2001 and a progressive Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories in a series of confidence building measures. Next comes the creation of an independent Palestinian state and an international conference on the road map. The third and final stage will seek a permanent end to the conflict with an agreement on final borders, the status of Jerusalem, and the fate of Palestinian refugees and Israeli settlements. Arab states will also agree peace deals with Israel
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Many are still justifying the bombing as a response to occupation. What the h•ll was the "Roadmap" then? It was a potential solution. Part of it was to phase out occupation. So quit the BS. A plan was being implemented. Clearly this was and will never be enough for the terrorists.
**
why the hell isrealis kept on killing hamas and jihad leaders? why they kep on killing civilians when a roadmap was being discussed? why they kep on building new illegal settlements when a roadmap was being implemented? seems like roadmap was for palestinians only and isrealis had the free-hand to do whatever they want :~)
**
So, apologists-was the roadmap inching toward a solution regarding occupation, or do terrorists reserve the right to kill children no matter what steps are taken until Israel is no longer. Stand up and be counted-will the solution to the problem only be the destruction of Israel?
**
you really think that as logn as sheron is in power, they will let the roadmap succeed? and wht solution are you talking abt? they refused to let the refugees come back to palestine bcos if will endanger isreals existance. they refused to stop illegal settlements. they refused to stop the construction of wall around palentine. so wht exactly is this roadmap about?
**
The plan sets out to achieve this by 2005 in three stages. The first demands an immediate cessation of Palestinian violence, reform of Palestinian political institutions, the dismantling of Israeli settlement outposts built since March 2001 and a progressive Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories in a series of confidence building measures. Next comes the creation of an independent Palestinian state and an international conference on the road map. The third and final stage will seek a permanent end to the conflict with an agreement on final borders, the status of Jerusalem, and the fate of Palestinian refugees and Israeli settlements. Arab states will also agree peace deals with Israel
**
do you remember the isreali PM who are assassinated by a jew a few years ago? why was he assassinated? from wht i've read, he was killed bcoz he was about to give away land to palestinians for a new palestine and ppl did not like that. he was a traitor and was dealt with in the most perfect way. then came ehud barak and everything changed. things would have been different today. and also who is responsible for the current intefadah? go read a few newspapers and you'll see who forced the current intefadah to start?
you talk abt creation of palestine by 2005. i can assue you as long as hardliners are in isreali government and USA government, palestine will remain a dream for millions. it will never realize unless you have ppl who are seriously and sincerely committed to peace and creation of palestine. :~)
**
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
THe people who do this are not in it for peace. They want to drive Israel into the sea. But everytime they have tried that, Israel has only gotten stronger and larger. I think, ISrael needs to occupy some more land and make a DMZ between them and the arabs. Or just take over the region. Laaton key bhoot baaton sey nahin maantey.
[/QUOTE]
true and prolly one day india will learn its lessen aswell for which its been ichin for soo long now :~)
So, are you being counted among those who see only the non-existence of Israel to be the path for Palestinians?
Clearly you have no faith in Israel's earnest participation in any future concessions to Palestinians?
There are better researchers on Gup, and I'm really busy today, but I would be very interested in a timeline or a roadmap of the "roadmap" since it was agreed on by both sides. Who broke a cease-fire first? Is retaliation for that a violation? Was restraint shown by either side? Who can help a brother out with this one?
Nomaan,
"It matters because most palestinians are muslims. and what they do reflects on all of us. killing women and children shows that islam says its ok to kill women and children. "
Very true words.
EP,
Sharon is meaningless, and the US has Israel by the short hairs. Without 10 Billion in aid every year, Isreal would be in serious trouble. However, no one is going to insist that Israel accept a deal that does not guarantee it's existence, and it's security.
Who has such power and influence over the Palestinians? No one.
As long as the Palestinian issue is paramount in the Mid East, no one will focus on the human rights abuses by Saudi, or Syria or Egypt, or anyone else. As long as the US and Israel appear to be the bad guys, the repressive arab nations are off the hook. But let's face it, Arab nations deny more human rights and repress more Muslims than do the Israeli's. It serves the arab world very well to keep the Palestinian pot boiling.
What it will come down to is, is there really any commitment to peace? I have said this before, and will say it again, I am in deep fear that if this road map fails Israel will resort to much more drastic measures. Isreal has the power to virtually expel the Palestinians from the West Bank. And Sharon is just the guy to do it. Go ahead, make his day.....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
So, are you being counted among those who see only the non-existence of Israel to be the path for Palestinians?
[/quote]
Are you okay with "Peace process keeps going while Israel kills Hamas/IJ leaders"?
Are you suggesting that when Israel kills Hamas/IJ leadership during peace process its because Arab leadership wants to so the pot remains boiling? 
Commitment is needed from both sides, one sided commitments never work even on individual levels and we are talking about “national/regional” levels here.