Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

First I thought the death toll was like 80 civilians and 10 fauji.

But I am now having second thoughts about this whole military operation. Not saying what Ghazi, Aziz and co. did was right but did 1,000+ people have to die because of the misguided actions of a few miscreants. My brother met a few doctors at PIMS and Holy Family Hospital who told him that they counted 350 dead bodies in Holy Family alone! If the death toll was indeed that high then it shows that the commandos/SSG really messed the whole thing up and are probably very over-hyped and over-rated like the Republican Guard (read jokers, they were no where in sight once the war started) of Saddam. If they can’t take on a few miscreants (who had 14 or so AK47 rifles and a few bottle-bombs) without causing so many casualties then how will they fight a full-fledged war (not saying it’s imminent)

Ijaz-ul-Haq admitted (to Hamid Mir on Capital Talk) that there were known terrorists hiding in the mosque and that Aziz and Ghazi probably did not realise that they had terrorists disguised as madrassah students. Mush only knows the exact truth but I heard him saying the other day that Ghazi’s demands (like letting all militants go scot free, giving them complete pardon etc.) were unacceptable to the government. Whatever the exact truth the reputation of the army has been seriously tarnished by all this IMO.

But if Benazir is the alternative I say Mush better stay unless Imran Khan (but he needs to be a bit more diplomatic and flexible in his approach, just bashing Mush at every opportunity shows lack of maturity and hutdharmi) can somehow seriously challenge BB (can’t see that happening at the moment)

No one wants Taliban-style Islam in Pakistan but the fact is that in case of Lal Masjid, an agreement had been reached and the loss of 1000 lives could have
been averted. Human life doesn’t have much value in Pak anyway. They
could have let Rashid Ghazi settle in his village and they could have monitored him like they did Dr A Q Khan, just like the courts have sentenced Maulana Abdul Aziz and his wife to jail, they could have done the same to Rashid Ghazi. But the operation was allegedly done at the behest of USA. Let’s hope that this thing comes to an end now.

In fact, it is possible that the Chief Justice might now start a case on this whole bungled lal masjid operation.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

This Ijaz-ul-Haq also shed some tears when negotiations failed. He had some ties to mullahtic loony brothers. It doesn't surprise me that he is trying to defend them.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

That statement is total rubbish, and nothing but the rumours of one person.

Do you not think that IF there were hundreds of people killed that there would hundreds of families protesting now and appearing on tv channels, and hundreds of familes registering cases with the Supreme Court?

It's been weeks since the operation now, where are the names of the so-called hundreds that were killed, or where are the hundreds of cases registered by the parents/relatives of those allegedly killed?

Think!

Do you not think that quite assertive media and courts would not be naming these "hundreds" by now?

I suggest you post facts and names to back up allegations, before you post such utter rubbish, which only defames the good name of our brave soldiers, and gives comfort to extremists!

P.S. No agreement had been reached with Ghazi - he backed out at the last minute because he wanted safe passage for his militant buddies, not just a safe exile in his village.. Once again you are believing the lies of the Lal Masjid lunatics! Pathetic.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Chill man. No need to be so abusive. I merely quoted what my brother was told by his doctor friends at PIMS (and I believe they were not lying).

just like you say there is no need to believe these 'rumours' same way we should n't believe everything that Mush and the military feed us. They are not whiter than white.

And for your information I am Aitchison College and Cadet College Hasan Abdal educated so I am not anti-military but yes I am anti-military involvement in politics. I don't have any fixed loyalties or ideas in my head either unlike you who seems to be so in awe of Pak Army and thinks they are harfan maula. I try to be objective and look at the wider picture. Such narrow-mindedness and blind worshipping of anything is not healthy believe me. I have bashed Mush when I felt he was wrong (reference gainst CJ (aakhir mein Mush ko chapat pari na!), May 12 Karachi Mayhem) and I initially gave him credit for carrying out the operation against Lal masjid militants. But I am not so sure now.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Look - when it comes to giving confort extremists and suicide bombers who are inflicting bloodshed in NWFP and other places then it is a serious matter.

I don't have to believe what Musharraf or the govt has to say, as I believe in open facts. You are content to believe something you heard second or third hand for which there is absolutely no proof whatsover.

Now I ask you again.

Do you not think that IF there were hundreds of people killed that there would hundreds of families protesting now and appearing on tv channels, and hundreds of familes registering cases with the Supreme Court?

Please provide a link where hundreds of family members have complained or lodged cases about their dead or missing relatives - from Lal Masjid?

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

GoldenAsif, what was Aitchison like?

Are you a student here in the UK?

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

AOA GA!!
Good topic for discussion. However I have another twist to this saga.

The operation was not bungled in anyway. It went exactly as planned. The political wins at the international terrorism front have been well achieved by our current military regime. The loss is not only the lives of students who were brain washed into thinking they were like Sahabah and Sahabiat fighting a holy war, but of a the image and respect that clergy in Pakistan have maintained for the last 60 years. If the Ghazi brothers and specially Abdur Rashid would have had the foresight to surrender unconditionally after his brother was caught trying to escape in a burqah, he would have been a hero and the impression that Molvis and Mullahs are bent on killing or getting killed would have been tattered.

Lets look back at the various events that took place in association with our Red mosque (Lal Masjid).
1. Mosques in the Islamabad area are demolished on the basis of illegal encroachment. Lal masjid retaliates by overtaking a library.
No police action is taken untill they themselves give up the vigil. A very easy step could have been to teargas the library, as is done by most govts. in other civilized countries when mobs get out of control.
The students would have come out and loss of life would have been minimal.

  1. Lal masjid raids neighbour hood video shops and demands removal of immoral material. Where is the police or rangers? Why are they not in the area immediately to maintain govt. control?

  2. Evern though major events were taking place in this sector of Islamabad no area wide curfew was imposed. A step even the US had to take when the LA riots broke out.
    The islamabad govt. had every right to impose a sector curfew and enforce it with Rangers.

  3. Now here comes the great escalation point. Police officers are beaten with sticks and kidnapped. Where ..? in Norway? no in our own Pakistan where the world famous Baton police rules unchecked. Were these officers just waiting and sitting to be kidnapped by madressah students? or did they have a secret admiration for burqah clad young girls and were willing to risk their lives to get a chance to see them uncovered?..I don't think so.
    Again no police raid. No teargas invasion. No SSG to go in get the police out.
    In the 90s when a PIA 747 was overtaken by some "supposed" hijackers, Pakistan's very own elite SSG commandos defused the situation with a quite precisely excecuted raid on the plane and no passenger were killed by the raid.

  4. The neighbourhood brothel owner and her girl are kidnapped. Was that a service to mankind? Well the same person had been operating in the area under the sponsorship of govt. ministers for more then a decade. How come the students just thought of this idea? Who put them upto a stunt such as this? Was it the police? Was it Ijaz-ul-Haq? Or was it crazed mullahs as we would be made to think? The same crazed Molvi that tried to run away from his life long dream now coming true by hiding under a burqah. Yes very credible indeed.

  5. Should we go on? Should we now try and see the other events of massage center kidnappings and such from an aerial view point?
    I think it is very clear already that there existed multiple "safe" or "less dangerous" opportunities for the govt., their police and rangers to "reestablish control" and defuse this "bomb".

They never wanted to. They had their sights on a major goal. They got it. Mullah Abdul Aziz has his life.
If he was indeed the crazed mullah bent on imposing his taleban shariah, would he really try to run away like this? No he would stay the course and die fighting. Like his brother did who actually might have been sincere but could not see the "plan" as it actually was being implemented.

Only Allah SWT knows who is the real terrorist in Pakistan or anywhere else.
And soon it will be clear. For every plan has a master planner. And in this life, Allah SWT is the only master planner. His plan will soon become clear as day.

2 Likes

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

**Asif: **No one believes one side or other, even though to believe government is natural. Unfortunately, government figures in past were so unreliable that today it is very difficult to believe government. But than, in past government use to give false figures and that is one reason government never allowed free media in Pakistan (or even now in most world countries). I am living in UK best part of my life and I can say with certainty that today Pakistani media is more free than British, rather Pakistan media is free and irresponsible.

In UK, even now, no media would publish that Palestinian is occupied land and Jews moved to Palestine and thrown people out of their home. No media in UK would dare to call British army as terrorist or criminals and … those criminals (madrassa people) as hero, as that media would get into trouble. Media no where in the world would bring terrorist on TV to negotiate with government (as Pak media did). No media in UK would publish that … well without quoting … many things … just because if they would do, they would be in trouble from the state.

In Pakistan, it is other way round. To shut the mouth of media in any country and to force them to show what government likes, within their boundary is very easy thing to do, even without masses knowing what happening. Thus, present Pakistan government is a bit different than past governments else they would not have allowed such irresponsible media freedom.

Anyhow, still being sceptical on Pakistani government figures, a conditioning of mind from past, we can still use our intelligence to work out something. Akhir intelligence tou Allah kee dayin hay and not to use it is a retarded behaviour. So, let use intelligence and work out from obvious.

There is no doubt that madrassa people were criminals. Crime means breaking the law of the land, and madrassa people were breaking law of Pakistan. They also broke law of Allah, as Allah does not allow anyone to illegally occupy other people's land, and they built their madrassa and major part of lal-masjid on illegally occupied land (Masjid after the episode is now can be called Masjid as it seems government is legalising those illegally occupied land). Taking laws in their own hand, Occupation of Library, kidnapping of aunty shameem, kidnapping of policemen, burning of other people's shop contents (video cassettes), burning of government building, killing of rangers, etc ... all were crimes in the eyes of Allah as well as state.

Let see who were liars? No doubt that people of Madrass were lying blatantly for all to see. Ghazi came on TV claiming at one time that there were no fire arms even when one can see their men on roads carrying arms. Later, after some embarrassing moments, he came and claimed that there are few licensed guns (note: they could not have AK-47 under license in Madrassa). Now you can find many pictures and even live footage of people from madrassa carrying AK-47 and other arms (you can even find at places on this forum). Only Allah knows how many and what sort of arms these terrorist had.

Well, there are many instances of lying from these goons. The girl on TV after the event was lying that there were no weapon in madrassa. She was playing the role of little devil liar. As for government, even though media tried their best, there are no lies that one can easily detect even now about the event comming from government.

Hence, logic says that the story of government is more likely to be true than rumours spreading by people of madrassa and all pro madrassa liars. Actually, the amount of lies these people sold in the name of Islam so blatantly that today, anyone that seems outwardly religious is getting taken a liar. All trust and respect of these people is lost. [At one time I use to think that these people may be misguided, maybe unintelligent, maybe ignorant, but I never use to think that they were liars]

Other logic: The biggest and very difficult to dispute. Media today is very nosy and they are not leaving anything unturned to undermine government statements. Government is also letting them do what they like (though recently have put some limits on that). Media is openly questioning government claim of casualties on pretext that they were not allowed to confirm the casualties just after the event. No one from media is claiming that media have any solid proof.

In such situation and circumstances, it is anyone’s guess that if there was such casualties, media would have brought family of those who are missing (if not for anything than just to embarrass government). They did not because there are none. This also confirms that those that got killed, they are also mostly combatant terrorists, as combatant terrorists family would not know where they are, hence none is coming. Only family of one terrorist came out, and that is also due to reason that the picture was published of him in newspaper as foreign terrorist (he turned out to be local terrorist).

If media can show the family members of one terrorist just to embarrass government claim because government claimed him as foreign terrorist, they could show the families of others too.

Other thing to think about is that, Lt Colonel lost his life in the hand of madrassa terrorist when commandos did not even entered the madrassa. He must be wearing bullet proof jacket. It shows that how trained and deadly those terrorist were in madrassa that they were target killing. It took commandos couple of days to capture that building shows the intensity of resistance there.

Fact is that, believe me, I would not cry even if 1000 did really got killed there. They took the fight and they asked for it. They got all the chances to save themselves but they did not. Actually, they fired on commandos (who were just doing their duty) and became cause of taking life of around 10 of them. If it was up to me, I would have preferred to kill them all and save the life of commandos, as they are employees of Pakistan, who fought for Pakistan (it was not their personal fight).

Actually, if I was in place of President Musharraf, I would have dealt with this situation differently. I would have made open announcement to them in building and Lal Mosque that all from those building come out as we are going to bomb them all those buildings to ground. After ultimatum time passed, I would have started destroying all buildings using air power, minimising any possibility of casualties of forces.

If media people, any ulema, or any of madrassa supporters would have asked that they want to go in the madrassa to see what is happening there or talk to them, I would have let them go in on their own risk, telling them too, that after such time if they could not come out, they would die inside too, as those building would come down.

These people in madrassa were khabees and it is duty of Muslims to get rid and thus clean this world from Khabees.

2 Likes

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

But but....the ninjanis said they had NO weapons and farishtas defeated the soldiers?

If you really believe this 14 rifles nonsense, i am sorry to say you are a fool.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Refrain from personal attacks

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Very well thought and written response, Sa1eem.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

so it was not 80 or 100, but maybe 350, or hell 1000, why not 10,000.
if the casualties are of the brainwashed automatons who were like ticking timebombs to be used for militanta nd terroristactivities, then I will gladly take the higher number of casualties over the lower number of casualties.

and if it was hostages who died who were being prevented to get out then it punches holes thru othee conspiracy theories that the ghazis were just fooled into getting their asses kicked.

the rest of the whole stuff is ridiculous, ghazi et al did nto know they had militants in their compound?

or that they were encouraged to do more ghunda gardee, as if govt nay unhain topi pehna di..and they were these wide eyed innocent folks who just fell for it.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

I doubt it was 1000, but even if it was, what difference does it make now... The Talibs asked for this, they had it coming.
You must be naive or completely daft, to think the operation could have been carried out without loss of life on a majore scale considering how many terrorists were inside.
Lesson for the future: Behave yourselves or we will make your dream of shahdat, a reailty!

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!


It would have been great disservice to the nation if a terrorist/terrorist-supporter was let go scott free and with the best punishment "house-arrest", that punishment is not really a punishment. Such miscreants deserved to die and I am glad they did but unfortunately many others died alongwith them. The sole responsibility is not on army SSG as you said in your first post, there were not just 14 KKs, there is a lot more than meets the eyes.

You must have read the statements given out by the ladies who were ready for "suicide-bombing", are you sure they wouldn't have caused "collateral damage"?

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

conspiracies and more conspiracies! there will be claims and counter claims and this cycle will go on.. In hostilities as such do you know what or who is the first casualty? "Truth" truth is the first casualty... You expect us to believe that there were 1000 dead bodies scattered all over the place and in this day and age of cellphone cams and God knows what gov't still managed to bury them without anyone knowing... You think relatives of the deceased were bribed or were they also killed so there will be no one to claim the dead..

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

This is exactly the reason why I have NEVER EVER believed in Conspiracy theories

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Why should they have been pardoned after breaking the law? If those inside truly felt they had done nothing illegal they should have surrendered and subjected themselves to arrest to face a court.

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Khehkeshan: I would have thought (looking at your signature) that esp. you of all people would be on my side. Whether they had 14 or 1400 AK rifles etc. is besides the point IF (and that's a very big if) indeed so many people died in this tragedy. I never presented my facts as figures. That is a moot point. Misguided yes theu all most certainly were but whether all of them were militants and terrorists is debatable

legbreakgoogly: I had a great time at Aitchison college (went to junior school, stayed with my Khala who taught there for 35 years) and Hasanabdal. Aitchison as you know has a great campus. It's like a small town within a town. You get to have quality education and play sports like hockey, squash and swimming etc. Hasanabdal was different. I still have nightmares when I think about all the drills and 'ragra' that I went thru in my first year. The cock position is esp. painful (was only 13 then!). I am a medical doctor

AA and Saleem: WA, thanks for your exhaustive replies. Saleem bhai can you atleast put an abstract at the top of your every post. It's like reading a research paper with no abstract every time. Feeling a bit tired at the moment, had a very long day and must retire to bed. will reply soon. Allah Hafiz everyone

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

Exactly!

Re: Bungled Lal Masjid Operation!

**'…A legal aid committee says it has received 58 complaints from relatives about men who are said to be missing following the siege. **

The 102 people killed in the siege included 11 soldiers and an as yet unknown number of extremists and their hostages. …’

Source: BBC


Missing people probably killed and buried …