Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

[Kinzz]

@ajazali

I have so many things that i dont like about sufi poetry but i generally dont disuss those cuz of respect of views of other people. Making demand on a poet and saying like you dont like a certain aspect of poetry is not kind attitude IMHO.

That's ok everyone have their own views.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

I have so many things that i dont like about sufi poetry but i generally dont disuss those cuz of respect of views of other people. Making demand on a poet and saying like you dont like a certain aspect of poetry is not kind attitude IMHO.

I only linked that incident with the treatment met by Sufi poets in Punjab University to convey my point against those who consider a particular poet being blasphemous. There was a time, when Molvis gave fatwa against Iqbal too. Overall, I don't have any problem with Iqbal's poetry, but I do have a problem with the popular interpretation of his poetry by people like Zaid Hamid, etc

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

Muqa, you yourself approved the Idea of rule of Muslims over Spain, sory if I am wrong. If poetry of Waris shah can be included then why not of Bulleh shah?
Actually, poetry of Bulleh shah had been controversial. Even, his peer o murshid threw him out of his court for the same reason.
My point is if you want to make your case that poetry of Bulleh Shah is not blasphemous, all you should do is discuss his poetry in that perspective.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

Muqa, you yourself approved the Idea of rule of Muslims over Spain, sory if I am wrong. If poetry of Waris shah can be included then why not of Bulleh shah?

Actually, poetry of Bulleh shah had been controversial. Even, his peer o murshid threw him out of his court for the same reason.
My point is if you want to make your case that poetry of Bulleh Shah is not blasphemous, all you should do is discuss his poetry in that perspective.

I didn’t approve or disapprove Muslim rule over Spian. It did added some good things in Spanish culture which spread towards Europe and if we think neutrally such things would have spread in Europe (probably without Muslim invasion of Europe). Nothing can be said with certainty.

As far as I know Shah Inayat was angry with Bulleh Shah because he didn’t respected to Shah Inayat’s guests as was expected. nothing was controversial about his poetry to be detested by his peer.

Some writers have attributed the reason for his Master’s annoyance to Bulleh Shah’s open criticism of rituals and customs practiced by Muslims, and this was not to the liking of Inayat Shah. This reason, however , does not appear plausible, because criticism of external observance .is common to all Sufi saints, and it was not unknown in the Qadiri tradition. They were certainly not the worshippers of this system.

The second reason given for the annoyance is quite different in nature. It is said that once Bulleh Shah invited his Master on the marriage of one of his relatives, The Saint deputed one of his disciples to represent him at the function. This disciple belonged to the Arain caste and was poorly clad. Now, Bulleh Shah’s family was proud of belonging to the clan of Sayyiads. They did not give proper attention in receiving this poorly clad man. Even Bullah happened to make this omission. At least he should have shown proper respect to the representative of his Master, But under the pressure of his family or the fear of public opinion, he did not give the guest due honor. When the disciple returned from the marriage, the Saint asked him how the marriage was celebrated. He told his Master the whole story , and complained that because of his low caste and tattered clothes, neither Bulleh Shah nor his family showed him due respect. The Saint replied, “How dare Bullah behave like this ?” And then added, “What have we to get from this useless man ? We shall change the direction of the flow of water from his fields to yours !” He had only to utter these words to bring a calamity in Bullah’s life. As soon as the Master changed the direction of his grace, his spring turned into autumn. His inner visions vanished, leaving him dry and barren. Light changed into darkness and bliss into mourning. It was a stunning blow to Bullah.

Articles on Bulleh Shah's Poetry

Bulleh Shah was a Syed and he chose a non-Syed (Arain) to be his Peer o Murshid by Saying:

Bullay Nu Samjhawan Aaian Bheynaan Tay Bharjaiyaan,
Man Lay Bulleya Sada Kena, Chad Day Palla Raaiyan

**Bulleh Shah’s sisters and sisters-in-laws came to convince him.
Bulleya, please do as we tell you and leave the Arain’s (his guru’s) company.

**Aal Nabi Ullad Ali,
Nu Tu Kyun Lee-kaan Laiyaan.
**
You are born into the family of prophet, you are heir of Ali,
So why do you ruin your family’s name like this.

and Bulleh Shah replied:

**Jeyra Saanoun Syed Saday Dozakh Milay Sazaiyaan.
Jo Koi Saanu Raie Aakhe, Bhisti Peenghaan Paian.

Those who address me as Syed, shall be condemned to hell.***
Those who address me as Raie, shall ride the swings in heaven.
**
Raien, Saayin, Sabhin Thaayein, Rab Deyaan Bay Parwaaiyaan,
Sohniyaan Paray Hatayaan Tay, Khojeyaan Lay Gall Laiyaan.

**Arain and masters are born at every place, God does not discriminate against anyone, The lord is so carefree.
**

So my point is Bulleh Shah was made controversial by right wingers to prove their point. Fortunately, this does not happen to sufi poets of Sindh like Bhit Shah, Sachal Sarmast, whose poetry contain equally blasphemous contents The reason being, Sindh University had included Bhit Shah and Sachal Sarmast in their syllabus way before right wingers came into power

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

Icono bhai

Parveen Shakir was not born in Punjab and probably that was not her Mother tongue too. I didn't say that I don't like Iqbal at all. I said I found certain things in his poetry not appealing to me (i.e. glamorising invaders). There are parts in Allama Iqbal's poetry which are used by people like Zaid Hamid to promote adventure against people of other faiths.

Regarding Chakar-e- Azam video, if we look at the promise taken by Chakar e Azam himself, it was about respecting his Peer o Murshid and I don't like promises taken by other sardars except Shah Mureed, who promised to give anything, if a beggar begged for that on a certain day.

I think Parveen Shakir was an Urdu Speaker.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@Ali_Syed

I think Parveen Shakir was an Urdu Speaker.

But she did wrote about Islamabad, its people and their problems, where she was posted as CSP officer.

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@muqawwee123

I didn't approve or disapprove Muslim rule over Spian. It did added some good things in Spanish culture which spread towards Europe and if we think neutrally such things would have spread in Europe (probably without Muslim invasion of Europe). Nothing can be said with certainty.

I am talking about post of Diwana where he said West failed to provide what Muslim provided their people. however if your point is nothing can be said with certianity, then why you use Iqbal's peotry to justify your point about bulleh shah' poetry?

[QUOTE]

As far as I know Shah Inayat was angry with Bulleh Shah because he didn't respected to Shah Inayat's guests as was expected. nothing was controversial about his poetry to be detested by his peer.

[/QUOTE]

I have source of Textbook of Punjabi to prove what I said.

[QUOTE]

So my point is Bulleh Shah was made controversial by right wingers to prove their point. Fortunately, this does not happen to sufi poets of Sindh like Bhit Shah, Sachal Sarmast, whose poetry contain equally blasphemous contents :D The reason being, Sindh University had included Bhit Shah and Sachal Sarmast in their syllabus way before right wingers came into power
[/QUOTE]

actully right wingers has nothing to do with syllabus of punjabi. If right wingers had influenced syllabus they would not allow to include poetry of Waris Shah as well.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

I am talking about post of Diwana where he said West failed to provide what Muslim provided their people. however if your point is nothing can be said with certianity, then why you use Iqbal's peotry to justify your point about bulleh shah' poetry?

diwana's post? where?

I'm talking of the popular claim by Muslims that all the development in Europe is due to their contribution. I find this a bit exaggerated, as Europe did go through lot of development in last 5-6 centuries, when Muslim societies faced lot of deterioration in almost all fields.

I was comparing Bulleh Shah and Iqbal for academic purposes (i.e. inclusion of one ideology in syllabus and excluding other popular ideology from syllabus)

[QUOTE]
I have source of Textbook of Punjabi to prove what I said.

[/QUOTE]

Do post that here. I would like to know this too. Some people even consider Bulleh Shah's following poetry blasphemous and having bad impact on youth's character:

Makkah gayan
Gal mukdi nahin
Paven sau sau jummen padhaiye
Ganga gayan
Gal mukdi nahin
Paven sau sau gothey khaiye
Gaya gayan
Gal mukdi nahin
Paven sau sau panD padhaiye
Bulleh Shah!
Gal taiyon mukdi
jadoN ‘meiN’ nu diloN gawaaiye

But in wider perspective it is not and can be interpreted as complaint with Islamic concept of Tazkia e nafs.

[QUOTE]

actully right wingers has nothing to do with syllabus of punjabi. If right wingers had influenced syllabus they would not allow to include poetry of Waris Shah as well.
[/QUOTE]

Heer Waris Shah is milder than Bulleh Shah's Poetry. If I'm not wrong it starts with a Hamd :)

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@muqawwee123

diwana's post? where?

I'm talking of the popular claim by Muslims that all the development in Europe is due to their contribution. I find this a bit exaggerated, as Europe did go through lot of development in last 5-6 centuries, when Muslim societies faced lot of deterioration in almost all fields.

I was comparing Bulleh Shah and Iqbal for academic purposes (i.e. inclusion of one ideology in syllabus and excluding other popular ideology from syllabus)

Do post that here. I would like to know this too. Some people even consider Bulleh Shah's following poetry blasphemous and having bad impact on youth's character:

Makkah gayan Gal mukdi nahin Paven sau sau jummen padhaiye Ganga gayan Gal mukdi nahin Paven sau sau gothey khaiye Gaya gayan Gal mukdi nahin Paven sau sau panD padhaiye Bulleh Shah! Gal taiyon mukdi jadoN ‘meiN’ nu diloN gawaaiye

But in wider perspective it is not and can be interpreted as complaint with Islamic concept of Tazkia e nafs.

Heer Waris Shah is milder than Bulleh Shah's Poetry. If I'm not wrong it starts with a Hamd :)

You can read about that incident in Elective Punjabi(bay) book of B.A. I think that is enough if we want to conclude. otherwise there would never ending discussion.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

You can read about that incident in Elective Punjabi(bay) book of B.A. I think that is enough if we want to conclude. otherwise there would never ending discussion.

Elective Punjabi (B>A). When and Who selected that material for Bulleh Shah. I can't get such material here in Karachi, so if you can post that here, it would be useful for me and other interested posters

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@muqawwee123

Elective Punjabi (B>A). When and Who selected that material for Bulleh Shah. I can't get such material here in Karachi, so if you can post that here, it would be useful for me and other interested posters

Sure, I will post scan image of that part of book.

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

Muqa, I would post that source by saturday evening.
till then, let us discuss few things about bulleh shah’ peotry.

Following is an article about chapter of book, History of Panjabi Literature by Sant Singh Sekhon. Do you think, a Muslim should use such metaphor to spread love?
and, is this concept of God in accord with Islamic concept?

Story of Bulleh Shah, Who was Bulleh Shah
Bullhe Shah’s God is ‘mischievous’: he hides himself in the way Krishna did after dancing with the gopis to be found again. God is a hidden thief. However, the Sufi idea of veils over the Reality and of God as the ‘hidden treasure’ are equally relevant here. Matringe takes ‘māhi’ literally to be the ‘cowherd’, but it comments the beloved Bullhe Shah’s depiction of the pangs of separation appear to be the pangs of the gopis ‘in Persianized style’. In another verse in the female voice ‘I shall write letters to Sham’ is perceived by Matringe as symbolic of the letter which Radha thinks of writing to Krishna .

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

another article tells bulleh shah was secularist.

Bulleh Shah, the daring secularist! « Blind to Bounds
*Bulleh Shah hailed the revolutionary spirit of Guru Gobind Singh, calling him a ‘protector’ of those who believed in right to follow their religious belief. He said in a subtle satire:

Nah Karoon Ab Kee,
Nah Karoon Baat Tab Kee.
Gar Na Hotey Guru Gobind Singh,
Sunat Hoti Sab Kee.

I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow;
I talk about today.
Had Gobind Singh not been there,
They would all be under Islamic sway.

Hence, mentioning that had the tenth Guru not been there, Auranzeb would’ve forced all to convert to Islam( implying Sunnat as circumcision*
last line i quoted is misleading.
Reality is Bulleh shah prasing Guru Gobind Singh, who ordered the Hindu and muslim perform no rituals and no pilgrimages , no viel(pardah) for muslim women anymore.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

Muqa, I would post that source by saturday evening.
till then, let us discuss few things about bulleh shah’ peotry.

Following is an article about chapter of book, History of Panjabi Literature by Sant Singh Sekhon. Do you think, a Muslim should use such metaphor to spread love?
and, is this concept of God in accord with Islamic concept?

Story of Bulleh Shah, Who was Bulleh Shah
Bullhe Shah’s God is ‘mischievous’: he hides himself in the way Krishna did after dancing with the gopis to be found again. God is a hidden thief. However, the Sufi idea of veils over the Reality and of God as the ‘hidden treasure’ are equally relevant here. Matringe takes ‘māhi’ literally to be the ‘cowherd’, but it comments the beloved Bullhe Shah’s depiction of the pangs of separation appear to be the pangs of the gopis ‘in Persianized style’. In another verse in the female voice ‘I shall write letters to Sham’ is perceived by Matringe as symbolic of the letter which Radha thinks of writing to Krishna .

Thanks for sharing this. I’ll go through this in detail, but on first glance, I found some flaws in article from historical perspective:

Bullhe Shah felt anguish at the conflict between the Sikhs and the Mughal government which had produced extremely unsettled conditions in the country. In this connection, Sekhon equates the ‘rug-wearers’ of Bullhe Shah with the Sikh rulers.** Bullhe Shah’s Sufism appears to betray ‘defeatist tendencies’ perhaps because of ‘the decline of Muslim Mughal power’. His sympathies were with ‘the losing Muslim side’ and he regarded this situation as a ‘decline of society’. However the Sikhs established their rule in the Punjab after Bullhe Shah’s death. Ahmad Shah Abdali was apparently dominant even in the early 1760s. Therefore, the ‘Muslim side’ had not yet last power. **

Bulleh Shah didn’t take sides on the basis of religion. he detested Ahmed Shah in the words:

*Khahda peeta lahe da te baqi Ahmad Shahe da" (Consume as much as you can because the rest is going to be taken away by Ahmad Shah anyway).

*Do you also have the poem (in Punjabi) which has been made basis for concluding Bulleh Shah’s concept of God?

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

another article tells bulleh shah was secularist.

Bulleh Shah, the daring secularist! « Blind to Bounds
*Bulleh Shah hailed the revolutionary spirit of Guru Gobind Singh, calling him a ‘protector’ of those who believed in right to follow their religious belief. He said in a subtle satire:

Nah Karoon Ab Kee,
Nah Karoon Baat Tab Kee.
Gar Na Hotey Guru Gobind Singh,
Sunat Hoti Sab Kee.

I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow;
I talk about today.
Had Gobind Singh not been there,
They would all be under Islamic sway.

Hence, mentioning that had the tenth Guru not been there, Auranzeb would’ve forced all to convert to Islam( implying Sunnat as circumcision*
last line i quoted is misleading.
Reality is Bulleh shah prasing Guru Gobind Singh, who ordered the Hindu and muslim perform no rituals and no pilgrimages , no viel(pardah) for muslim women anymore.

now thats interesting and require a separate discussion. Being secular doesn’t mean devoid of religion. The way Bulleh Shah shown his secularism is part of our society since centuries and i.e. tolerance for others faith. This is also preached by Other Sufis in Sindh and Punjab.

There were / are rituals that exploited followers and actual teachings of religions and thats why Sufis talked against them. But Do we have any poetry of Baba Bulleh Shah, which ask people not to pray, give zakaat, etc in totality?

Also, I would also want to details / sources about Guru Gobind ordering Muslim ladies not to do purdah.

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@muqawwee123

Thanks for sharing this. I'll go through this in detail, but on first glance, I found some flaws in article from historical perspective:

Bulleh Shah didn't take sides on the basis of religion. he detested Ahmed Shah in the words:

*Khahda peeta lahe da te baqi Ahmad Shahe da" (Consume as much as you can because the rest is going to be taken away by Ahmad Shah anyway).

*Do you also have the poem (in Punjabi) which has been made basis for concluding Bulleh Shah's concept of God?

Bulleh shah's cocept of God, you can esily infer this concept from Sufism belief of "Wahdat ul Wajood". According to this belief God can be seen in everything, to force reader to realize this concept Bulleh Shah used such metaphor. God is in hidden thief ... and so on...

me too agree Bulleh Shah didint take side on the basis of religion. I think historical flaws are not that important in this context.

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@muqawwee123

now thats interesting and require a separate discussion. Being secular doesn’t mean devoid of religion. The way Bulleh Shah shown his secularism is part of our society since centuries and i.e. tolerance for others faith. This is also preached by Other Sufis in Sindh and Punjab.

There were / are rituals that exploited followers and actual teachings of religions and thats why Sufis talked against them. But Do we have any poetry of Baba Bulleh Shah, which ask people not to pray, give zakaat, etc in totality?

Also, I would also want to details / sources about Guru Gobind ordering Muslim ladies not to do purdah.

I do think that is relevant because of his support to Guru Gobind who was forcing people to follow his own religious concepts

*From now on, you have become casteless. No ritual, either Hindu or Muslim, will you perform nor will you believe in superstition of any kind, but only in one God who is the master and protector of all, the only creator and destroyer. In your new order, the lowest will rank with the highest and each will be to the other a bhai (brother). No pilgrimages for you any more, nor austerities but the pure life of the household, which you should be ready to sacrifice at the call of Dharma. Women shall be equal of men in every way. **No purdah (veil) for them anymore, nor the burning alive of a widow on the pyre of her spouse (sati). *He who kills his daughter, the Khalsa shall not deal with him.
Guru Gobind Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

I do think that is relevant because of his support to Guru Gobind who was forcing people to follow his own religious concepts

*From now on, you have become casteless. No ritual, either Hindu or Muslim, will you perform nor will you believe in superstition of any kind, but only in one God who is the master and protector of all, the only creator and destroyer. In your new order, the lowest will rank with the highest and each will be to the other a bhai (brother). No pilgrimages for you any more, nor austerities but the pure life of the household, which you should be ready to sacrifice at the call of Dharma. Women shall be equal of men in every way. **No purdah (veil) for them anymore, nor the burning alive of a widow on the pyre of her spouse (sati). *He who kills his daughter, the Khalsa shall not deal with him.
Guru Gobind Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Overall passage is inspiring, but it doesn’t prove that Bulleh Shah advocated no purdah in Muslim ladies

[ajazali]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@muqawwee123

Overall passage is inspiring, but it doesn't prove that Bulleh Shah advocated no purdah in Muslim ladies

oh muqa, please...
Bulleh Shah opposed aurngzaib whose intention was to convert all people into Muslims but he didnt opposed Guru Gobind who was forcing people to defuese thier respecitve religions, rather he appreciated Guru Gobind to continue his oppression...

[muqawwee123]

Re: Bulleh Shah and Punjab University

@ajazali

oh muqa, please... Bulleh Shah opposed aurngzaib whose intention was to convert all people into Muslims but he didnt opposed Guru Gobind who was forcing people to defuese thier respecitve religions, rather he appreciated Guru Gobind to continue his oppression...

Guru Gobind was conveying his message by word of mouth or using army to convert people? There is difference between the way Aurangzeb tried to impose religion (against the basic teaching of Islam - La ikrah Fiddin - There is no compulsion in religion) and the way Sikh gurus conveyed their message. How many Muslims converted to Sikhi due to message / force of Guru Gobind? Did he wage war on people, who didn't convert to Sikhi? I don't think so.

Sikhs started using force, when their gurus were killed and oppressed, whereas Aurangzeb got history of killing his brothers and arresting old father just for the sake of rule.

Thats what history tells us. Aurangzeb was even detested by poets like Khushal Khan Khatak.