Didn’t want to sidetrack the other discussion too much… however, just wanted to clarfy my understanding that gheebat and buhtaan are closely interlinked. Both involve someone saying something bad about another person, without that person being present. While gheebat is a truth, buhtaan is a false. That makes buhtaan even worse.
But if someone is present, and you say something false about him, thats just a lie and the other person can correct it. So, its a lie… not a buhtaan. Buhtaan is only when the other person is not present.
I am saying the critical difference is that the other person MUST be ABSENT, for it to become a buhtaan.
Nothing in your post suggests otherwise. If the other person is PRESENT than its just a lie, and not a buhtaan.
So, there are four things here:
Not Present
1. If the person is NOT present and you say something true against him, thats gheebat.
1. If the person is NOT present and you say something false against him, that is buhtaan.
Present
1. If the person is PRESENT and you say something true against him, thats a fact, not gheebat.
*] If the person is PRESENT and you say something false against him, thats a lie, not buhtaan.
Present
If the person is PRESENT and you say something true against him, thats a fact, not gheebat.
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Correction: a classic definition according to hadith suggest that even IF A PERSON IS PRESENT and you say something that is true which your muslim brother does not want you to tell, it is considered Gheebat... :) ofcourse the three exceptions for gheebat still apply :-)
Where did you get this "classic definition" and how authentic is it?
I know the saying to keep "pardaposhi of the defects in other muslims so Allah will protect your defects"... but the reverse does not automatically mean gheebat. Does it? Unless its too classical, ofcourse. :)
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Where did you get this "classic definition" and how authentic is it?
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I heard it in a live speech by Imam Siraaj Wahaaj two ramadhan ago in our mosque... he often visits us and according to him it was a ahsan hadith.. i dunno if he is known to u or not..
I think it stil is buhtaan......because literary buhtaan is used in the same meaning.....for lies both in the presence or absence of the accused.....
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-ditto-
Well, I can't imagine then why would gheebat be deemed similar to eating the meat of your own dead brother, if the metaphorical brother is sitting right there and can defend himself. It seems to make a lot more sense if the 'brother' is not there. :)
If you know something against a 'brother' and you tell others about it while the brother is present, it seems more a case of "backstabbing" rather than "backbiting". Fine difference, yes. But different, nevertheless.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Well, I can't imagine then why would gheebat be deemed similar to eating the meat of your own dead brother, if the metaphorical brother is sitting right there and can defend himself. It seems to make a lot more sense if the 'brother' is not there. :)
If you know something against a 'brother' and you tell others about it while the brother is present, it seems more a case of "backstabbing" rather than "backbiting". Fine difference, yes. But different, nevertheless.
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To do a bohtaan is one process and to defend is another process...if he is sitting there yes he can defend himself which is called defending the bohtaan!
Whats the difference between a "lie" and a "buhtaan"?
Ok, lets try to understand through an example. Suppose you, AQ and I are sitting and talking... and you say "AQ is very sharmeela". AQ doesn't think he is sharmeela and says "I am not", will it still be considered a "buhtaan" then? Or, if AQ does feel he is sharmeela, then what you have said is now considered "gheebat"???
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Whats the difference between a "lie" and a "buhtaan"?
Ok, lets try to understand through an example. Suppose you, AQ and I are sitting and talking... and you say "AQ is very sharmeela". AQ doesn't think he is sharmeela and says "I am not", will it still be considered a "buhtaan" then? Or, if AQ does feel he is sharmeela, then what you have said is now considered "gheebat"???
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Bohatan is always a lie...the difference is Bohtaan is only for a Person while lie could be about any thing...
Its Morning but its not ...this is a lie...
You are thief ...but you are not ...this is Bohtaan on you ...I can say Faisal is thief at the back or on your face as well in both cases it is Bohtaan on you...
So bohtaan is always a lie we tell about any person ... who is either present or not...
It does spoil person's image in the society... and causes a insult, breaks heart and can cause a clash…
Yar Bohtaan is plain LIE…no matter if its bad or good…
you will not consider its a bohtaan if I am your friend and on your face I say AQ is sharmeela…even thought if you are not , you will not care cuz I am your friend…but
the same thing if a person says who is not your friend …will you still like that ?
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*Originally posted by ?: *
you will not consider its a bohtaan if I am your friend and on your face I say AQ is sharmeela...even thought if you are not , you will not care cuz I am your friend...but the same thing if a person says who is not your friend ...will you still like that ?
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So it depends on whether the other person takes offence or not? You are a friend, so you said something to him in front of someone else, and you thought since he is your friend, so you are ok. Turns out that person took offence... so now your lie, just became a "buhtaan" and you are worse than "eating the meat of a dead brother"??
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
So it depends on whether the other person takes offence or not? You are a friend, so you said something to him in front of someone else, and you thought since he is your friend, so you are ok. Turns out that person took offence... so now your lie, just became a "buhtaan" and you are worse than "eating the meat of a dead brother"??
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I never said its ok...
In all cases its Bohtaan...but since the person is my friend and did not mind it means he forgave me ...and once I said it I must ask for an aplogy and must clear the thing that I was telling lie...
Because if there is a 3rd person listening and if I did not clear it...the chances are he will will spread that rumour!
We should avoid telling lie even in mazak...if we make mistake we must do an aplogy in front of all people who were present at the time of lie!
So, how are you supposed to warn people about someone else? You know a person is dishonest and there are other people who may be harmed by the dishonest person.... so in front of everyone you say "I know he is a dishonest person, so don't do any business with him"... are you guys suggesting that it is "gheebat"?
So, what about open public meetings, where you criticize a leader infront of him and everyone. Thats all gheebat or buhtaan?
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
So, how are you supposed to warn people about someone else? You know a person is dishonest and there are other people who may be harmed by the dishonest person.... so in front of everyone you say "I know he is a dishonest person, so don't do any business with him"... are you guys suggesting that it is "gheebat"?
So, what about open public meetings, where you criticize a leader infront of him and everyone. Thats all gheebat or buhtaan?
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Very very Good question...
There are 4 types of Geebat which are allowed...
1- One is about a leader, we can talk about a leader on his back...(truth only)
2- When some has inquiry about a person for a marriage proposal (we are allowed to tell every thing truth)...
3-
4-