British troops killed in Iraq

Ohio

Let me also take you into confidence.

US really hates tyrants. After all it has in the past and also currently only supported democrats like Saddam, Noreiga, Pol Pot, Mubarak, Kuwaiti Royal family, Saudi royal family (till recently), the Qatari sheikh, the list goes on and on. The world is in awe at the number of tyrants you detest. Even when you were trying to rid the world of this great demon you only chose to operate from the great democratic nations like Kuwait and Qatar. You wouldn't have dreamed of operating out of undemocratic countries ruled by tyrants, just in case you might have to liberate them as well. Kuwait and Qatar are the biggest democratic nations in the middle east. They have no tyrants ruling them and there leaders have been elected through a popular vote.

Oh one more thing, in 1991 you also liberated Kuwait and handed it back to the democratically elected government there.

Will the historians write about WMD. Probably.

But one thing they are sure to write about for ever, the lie which the American and British administration spread around to start this war. That is something history will record forever.

BTW you side stepped my question of how many Iraqis sent letters to Bush asking him to liberate them.

So you and your nation detest saddam and wanted to get rid of him. That is what I said all along as well. WMD's were just a lie.

"BTW you side stepped my question of how many Iraqis sent letters to Bush asking him to liberate them."

Now there is an interesting question. Saddam murdered over a million Iraqi's. I suppose some of those sent post cards to Bush.

Now, why are British troops, and US troops willing to go to a foreign land and fight? These are not conscripts, drafted by an unpopular government, they are people who believe in thier government.

Now, here comes the big admission. Yes the US has supported less than democratic governments. Why? Usually it is a marriage of convenience, or a common enemy. But, please name me a country that has done MORE to promote liberty and democracy? Norway? France? Sweden? Please.......

Now, do you really believe that a democratic Iraq smack dab in the middle of Syria, Iran, and Saudi will not promote greater freedoms in a region which has absolutely NO history of democracy? Unfortunately in the Middle East, if you sit around waiting to deal with democracies exclusively, you end up with, oooops, Israel! Frankly I hold out little or no hope for the region, as there is lip service paid to the desire for democracy, but a culture of graft, corruption, strongmen, and tribal conflict. Do you really believe that if the US distanced themselves from Qatar, or Saudi, or Kuwait that a democracy would simply blossom because we told the Emir that he had to change his ways? Did that work with Saddam?

However there are UK and US servicemen and women fighting and dying, and I can assure you that they, and I, believe that the world is better off without Saddam.

Ohio now you are contradicting yourself.

First you write "We hate tyrants"

When I pointed out the great democrats you have supported you agree "Yes the US has supported less than democratic governments. Why? Usually it is a marriage of convenience, or a common enemy."

So you agree that it is not a matter of principle otherwise you wouldn't have supported tyrants period.

This hoopla about Saddam being a tyrant is not going to wash in this day and age, he served his purposes well enough in the past with a nod and a wink from the Allied forces.

The financial importance of securing the oil wells and landing big re-building contracts is much more important in reality, and with the death of 6 british soldiers the UK should be in a much stronger position to lobby for a bigger slice of the pie.

So now defending your homeland against invaders is termed as murder if you kill them. When they kill you it is liberation, when you retaliate they cry “murder”. :rolleyes:

UK says Iraq attack on troops was “murder”](http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030625/80/e35ph.html)

AMARAH, Iraq (Reuters) - An attack on British soldiers in Iraq that left six dead and eight injured was unprovoked and amounted to “murder”, a military spokesman says.

“This attack was unprovoked. It was murder,” Lieutenant-Colonel Ronnie McCourt told reporters on Wednesday outside a British military base near the city of Amarah, 350 km ( miles) southeast of Baghdad.

British forces in southern Iraq are on a heightened state of alert following the incident. “Security measures have been increased,” he said.

Local Iraqis say civilians attacked the soldiers because of intrusive searches for arms in a conservative Shi’ite Muslim town in southern Iraq, residents say.

The Ministry of Defence said six soldiers were killed and eight wounded in two separate incidents on Tuesday near the city of Amarah, some 200 km (120 miles) north of Iraq’s British- controlled second city, Basra.

Four Iraqis were killed in the clashes and 14 wounded, local residents said.

Witnesses on Wednesday in the town of Majjar, 30 km (18 miles) south of Amarah, said the six were killed by residents after days of tension over the methods used by a British force to search for heavy weapons.

They said British forces had used plastic bullets to try to control a crowd of protesters complaining about the searches.

Reporters in the town saw bulletholes in cars and buildings. There was no immediate comment from the British military on the details of the incident.

“These British soldiers came with their dogs and pointed weapons at women and children. As Muslims, we can’t accept dogs at our homes,” Rabee al-Malki told Reuters.

Most Muslims take offence if dogs come to their homes, believing the animals are impure.

Residents said the soldiers first came to search for weapons on June 21, saying they burst into houses with dogs sniffing for weapons and with guns pointing at women and children.

After complaints from locals the British force agreed to halt the intrusive inspections, but two days later they returned with the same attitude, the residents said.

The Iraqis asked that the searches stop and promised to hand over weapons within two months, they said.

When the soldiers returned on Tuesday, thousands took to the streets to protest.

PLASTIC BULLETS

“I yelled at them because they pointed their rifles at a child. I told them ‘don’t do that’ but a soldier hit me with the butt of his rifle in the face,” one resident, who refused to give his name, said. “Then the shooting started.”

The British forces opened fire with plastic bullets to control the crowd. Iraqis, believing the British were firing live bullets, fired from their AK-47s, killing the soldiers.

The casualties were the worst suffered by British forces in a single “hostile fire” incident since the war to oust Saddam Hussein erupted on March 20.

The British forces who control the mainly Shi’ite south have had few problems since Saddam was ousted, unlike U.S. troops in mainly Sunni central Iraq. Shi’ites expressed joy at the ousting of Saddam, a Sunni, who oppressed them for two decades.

But in Majjar, relief at Saddam’s ousting seems to have given way to resentment at the methods of the occupying forces.

“A British soldier held the underwear of a woman and stretched it. How can we accept this as Muslims and as Shi’ites,” Faleh Saleem said.

Amarah and its surroundings were a hotbed for anti-Saddam rebels during an uprising in the aftermath of Iraq’s defeat in the 1991 Gulf War. Baghdad forces crushed the rebellion, killing thousands in southern Iraq.

**Residents said they would not accept a British presence in their town any more.

“We will do the same if the British come back. We will not allow them to come back,” Abu Faten. **

Judge,

"This hoopla about Saddam being a tyrant is not going to wash in this day and age, he served his purposes well enough in the past with a nod and a wink from the Allied forces.

The financial importance of securing the oil wells and landing big re-building contracts is much more important in reality, and with the death of 6 british soldiers the UK should be in a much stronger position to lobby for a bigger slice of the pie."

I find it incredible that once an alliance (and if you research it, it was not much of an alliance) is made with Saddam that he is "our guy" forever. We did not marry the guy, and his behavior got more bizzare and horrific as time went on. Is it wiser to trun against him or to persist in supporting him (as the Russians and the French did) inspite of new information?

The financial implications of Iraq are completely overblown. The US is going to spend 60-80 Billion to overthrow Saddam. To get the oil wells back in shape Iraq will have to spend 5-10 billion, and there may be another 6-10 Billion spent on other reconstruction. The Iraqi oil is going into a trust, and there have been no recent implications that the US is just going to steal the oil despite the lefties running around with their hair on fire screaming "it's about the oil". At best there will be "price stability" in oil, but there has been no economy boosting effect of drasticly lowered oil prices, as it will take years for Iraqi oil production to grow as the work overs of the oil fields will take years. All of you geniuses need to tell me exactly how the US intends to make a NET porift on this. Try as I might, I do not see a return on investment of the billions it will take to manage Iraq in the coming years....

And, it is a little gross to say that reconstruction projects will be doled out according to a body count.....

These American gupphup people make me laugh they crying about WMD’s for nearly 3 months :rotfl"

now they changing there tune and singing oh we doing it for iraqi people well obviously liberation ticket gone out the window because nobody in Iraq wants the Americans within a 100 miles of them!

Just shows you patriotism is blind ignorance!

As for British occupation troops killed, they went into homes of people with dogs and pointing guns at childrens heads they deserve to be killed

UK Occupation Troops killed in Iraq
“These British soldiers came with their dogs and pointed weapons at women and children. As Muslims, we can’t accept dogs at ourhomes,” Rabee al-Malki told Reuters.

Muslims take offence over dogs in their homes, believing the animals to be impure.

Other residents criticised methods of the British occupiers, and alleged incidents involving soldiers during the searches.

“A British soldier held the underwear of a woman and stretched it. How can we accept this as Muslims and as Shi’ites,” resident FalehSaleem said.

Then they complain why iraqi people shoot at them sheesh :nono:

I agree with UTD and Ohioguy here, the rest of you are wrong, the US loves Democracies and fought this war (like it did in World War 2) for freedom, truth, justice and the American Way. The Iraqis will by the grace of the American people eventually become their largest trade partner and a symbol of American resolve to make the World a better place. Iraq shall follow the honourable record of allies like China, Syngman Rhee's Korea, Russia during World War 2, South Vietnam, Marcos's Philiphines and by the grace of the American people there is nothing the Iraqis can do about it.

^ lol.

Majjar is described as “home to some of the most die-hard opponents of Saddam”. Posters of Iraqi men who had disappeared under Hussein’s regime, still hang in shops in Majjar. This is a city that saw no love lost for Hussein’s ousting; should have been relatively ‘easy’ not to provoke the sentiments of this city’s residents - only if the occupying forces had exercised more respect in their methods of searching residences.

How would we react if we saw our mothers and sisters handcuffed in this manner ? i am not at all surprised that the people of this city now probably hate the US/UK as much as they hated Hussein and his regime.

[thumb=C]8998.JPG[/thumb]
(Source).

^ caption under the above photo:
"...They had been searching for an Iraqi man in an adjacent house who had recently tried to kill Iraqi informants working with the Army. Army officers later appologized to the family for mistakenly handcuffing them."

If that is cause for the people of this city to hate the US/UK as much as they hated Hussein and his regime (who regularly did things like this and then RAPED the women), then the Iraqis have more problems than the US can help them with.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by chosen1:

Local Iraqis say civilians attacked the soldiers because of intrusive searches for arms in a conservative Shi'ite Muslim town in southern Iraq, residents say.
[/QUOTE]

The Pentagon and the UK Defence Ministry were pumping out lies that they were only facing resistance from the Sunni Muslim central part of Iraq. These killings in a staunchly Shia Muslim part of Iraq have truly shot down that propoganda, and left the allies ina state of shock.

**

Seminole, The “cause” may be more complex than either of us realizes. This article provides some further details. Just posting excerpts.

‘Run or you will die.’ The soldiers did not go and they died…]('Run or you will die.' The soldiers did not go and they died... | World news | The Guardian)
Jason Burke in Majar al-Kabir, 26 June 2003, The Guardian

…] Majar al-Kabir is a Shia city, and it suffered badly under Saddam Hussein. Here the British and American forces were welcomed as liberators.

The problems appear to have started with a British drive to collect weapons. On Monday morning, residents say, British troops started aggressive searches of homes. As in most of Iraq, almost everybody in Majar al-Kabir is armed, and bearing arms is seen as a fundamental part of life. With security poor, many feel the need for protection.

The raids on Monday morning provoked a protest outside the police station. Bearing placards saying “Our town is safe. Stop the searches”, around 100 locals gathered.

After two hours, locals say, a British military policeman walked out to talk to them. He told them to disperse or helicopters would come and kill them, they said. The protest broke up and a few hours later four British Warrior armoured personnel carriers took up a position outside the building.

Community leaders then sat down with British officers to broker a deal. The local deputation was led by Talal Abid Ahmed Zubaida, a local prayer leader. After lengthy discussions he and a British officer signed an agreement.

“There is no necessity that the coalition and its agents come to the city. The process of securing weapons in al-Majar district will be supervised by the local security committee,” it reads. “After a period of a week for informing people, heavy weapons, including Dushka [a Soviet-made heavy machine gun], mortars and anti-aircraft guns will be handed in. We want to see results within one month.”

It was signed by Mr Zubaida and a Captain Chris. “We thought we had an agreement,” said Mr Zubaida yesterday.

But early on Tuesday patrols - or searches and raids - started again. Parachute regiment soldiers moved through the dusty streets. The locals were incensed and came out of their homes to argue with the British soldiers.

Many stories are now circulating about the behaviour of the British soldiers, few of which can be confirmed. Some say they shot dogs, others allege that the troops stole money and harassed women.

What is certain is that the claims are similar to those made in those cities further north where US troops have adopted an aggressive search policy and routinely seize all money “to prevent it being used for buying weapons”.

They also search women’s rooms, if not the women themselves. This a violation of local traditions. “They don’t respect the people and the women. It is very bad according to our Islam,” said Ahmed Younis, 32.

Mr Zubeida said he tried to broker a deal. “I argued with the British for a long time. In the end we agreed that they would stay in their vehicles and stop the searches,” he said.

But, according to locals, the searches did not stop and it appears that, within hours of the discussion, British soldiers dismounted to search more houses. This sparked violence.

At least one of the British vehicles was torched and some kind of firefight followed. A Chinook helicopter coming to support the soldiers was hit by a rocket propelled grenade. Local people then dragged off a British vehicle and burned it.

Then events began to move more swiftly. By about 10am an angry crowd had gathered in the bazaar. What happened next is unclear. Several witnesses said British soldiers moved through the bazaar after searching houses. The witnesses claim they treated local people roughly. “One threatened a child with his gun,” one said. Another said people started throwing stones at the troops.

As more people gathered, tensions rose. Some say that the soldiers fired rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, though this is unlikely. Most agree that a local man, possibly a former Ba’ath party official, started shooting with a handgun. The British then opened fire.

"It was about 10.15 and the market was very crowded,’ said Mr Younis. “I threw myself on the ground and shouted to everybody to run away or get down. The shooting lasted for about five minutes but there were bullets going everywhere. They were firing on automatic.”

Mr Younis, who was jailed by Saddam for nine years and says he welcomed the British when they arrived in his town, said that there were around 15 soldiers in two vehicles. “I couldn’t believe it when they started shooting,” he said.

At least 17 people were hit. They included a 13-year-old girl caught by a ricochet in the shoulder and a nine-year-old boy. Several other casualties have spinal injuries and multiple fractures.

In all, five men have died from their wounds. Three, with head wounds, died almost instantly, according to Dr Hassan Jabar, the assistant director of Majar al-Kabir’s hospital who treated the casualties. A fourth died in an ambulance on the way to Basra. Dr Jabar said he believed the high proportion of head and chest wounds showed the shooting had been carefully targeted.

The fifth to die was Ghazi Musa Hassan, 50, the ambulance driver at the main hospital. A single bullet hit him in the heart. Though he was alive when brought to Dr Jabar he died within minutes.

Musa, who had six children, had just finished an overnight shift. He then went home to have breakfast, went back to the hospital to check his vehicle’s engine and then, fatefully, walked through the bazaar on his way home. “He was a simple poor man,” Dr Jabar said.

As the wounded lay in the bazaar the British soldiers drove away. One local said they retreated to an outlying village. The crowd, however, were incensed. Many returned home to get their weapons - the very arms that the British soldiers had been trying to collect hours earlier. They headed towards the police station where they knew the British army had a presence.

The six MPs at the police station were well known. For a few weeks they had been coming to the station to liaise with and train the hastily recruited local police force. They had faced no animosity before, except the protest a day earlier.

It is unclear whether they knew of events elsewhere as attackers burned their vehicle, where their radio was kept.

The armed crowd was hundreds strong and set on revenge. A siege began. No one in Majar al-Kabir would admit to being among the attackers yesterday so details of the battle are sketchy. By 1pm at the latest, the MPs were dead and though a British army Chinook, dropping thunderflashes and possibly firing, had arrived, it was too late.

According to hospital staff, four Iraqis were injured in the police station attack. The figure could well be higher.

Yesterday Majar al-Kabir was tense but calm. There was also a sense of shock. In a tent Ghazi Musa’s family were welcoming people who had come to pay their respects to the dead ambulance driver.

Khaled Obeid, his cousin, was bewildered by events.

“We did nothing to them. First we welcomed them but now they hurt us. We were thankful to them for getting rid of Saddam but now I do not know.”

There is no evidence that the events are part of a concerted or organised resistance movement. No one here speaks of fedayeen or diehard Ba’athist loyalists. Instead they talk of the violation of honour and tradition and a lack of respect.

There is sympathy for the dead British MPs as well as the locals. “I am sad and very unhappy for both the Iraqis and the British,” said Dr Jabar. “I am very sorry. And I am afraid from the future.”

The picture of the women and little girl being handcuffed in their own homes is a disgrace. Those involved deserved to be shot.

Yea, they should be killed. :halo:

I don’t see you shedding any tears when Iraqi soldiers, civilians (including children and babies) are killed by the occupation forces. All we can see from your posts is that you make excuses for such acts. So don’t be surprised when others don’t mourn the killings of occupation forces, one’s that were pointing guns at Iraqi children before this event.

American Blood is worth no more than Iraqi blood (exception being Saddam and his thugs). My personal feeling, should I have to even say that, no but I did just for you Malik.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
American Blood is worth no more than Iraqi blood...
[/QUOTE]

Yet countless excuses are made for the shedding of Iraqi blood, and no remorse whatsover...

I hope Iraq will settle down to the point that handcuffing people will not be needed, but Palestinians are recruiting women to deliver bombs. 12 year olds tote AK-47's in Iraq. And you expect women and children not to be treated with some suspicion? What planet are you guys occupying today?

Welcome to blow-back.......

When people pose as taxi drivers and then blow up Americans they put everyone in jeopardy. When women pose as damsels in distress and then blow up those trying to help, expect women to come under suspicion. You can't pretend all civilians, women and children are little virginal angels when they use terrorist tactics to kill American forces.

And more americans missing. How many do you think went in search for Kuwaiti gold a la “Three Kings”?