British Pakistanis sympathetic to suicide bombers?

Shouldn’t the British Pakistani community be worried about unemployment (currently at 16% among British Pakistanis - more than twice the local and British Indian average) than blowing themselves up? It is totally terrible and despicable what the religious extremism can do to people. Here’s a story in today’s New York Times:

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/12/international/europe/12BRIT.html?th

What Drove 2 Britons to Bomb a Club in Tel Aviv?
By SARAH LYALL

ERBY, England, May 8 — Something changed Omar Khan Sharif, sent him in a new direction, and Derby’s older Pakistani population cannot begin to fathom what it was.

But the radicalization of the well-educated, thoroughly Westernized Mr. Sharif, 27 — the forces that led him from Derby to Tel Aviv, where he is wanted on charges of helping to carry out a suicide bombing in a beachfront nightclub on April 30 — make a certain sense to the younger, second-generation immigrants born and raised here. Mr. Sharif was angry, they say, for reasons that would be all too understandable to Muslims everywhere.

“In a way, I sympathize,” said Mohammed Zahid, 23, an automobile-plant inspector with a broad Midlands accent, who was strolling down Normanton Road, near where Mr. Sharif lived with his wife and two daughters. “When you see what’s happening in Israel, something comes into your mind, something just goes.”

On a fine spring day on a pleasantly bustling street, such an explanation seems partial at best. As Sarfraz Bashir, 31, a college graduate in between computer jobs who was helping out at the Jamia Mosque on Rose Hill Street, put it: “In the U.K., you can have a proper job and a proper education. We have everything here — why ruin it?”

Along with another Briton, Asif Mohammed Hanif, 21, Mr. Sharif is said to have entered Israel as a tourist, via Jordan, using his British passport. There, the two checked into a hotel, donned explosive belts and made their way to Mike’s Place, a jazz club next to the United States Embassy.

Mr. Hanif’s explosives detonated, killing him and three others and injuring at least 50 more, the authorities say; Mr. Sharif’s explosives failed to go off and he managed to slip away. He and Mr. Hanif now enjoy the dubious notoriety of being the first British suicide bombers to strike within Israel.

Mr. Sharif’s wife, sister and brother are under arrest in London, charged under antiterrorism legislation with failing to disclose information about acts of terrorism.

Publicly, what Mr. Sharif is accused of doing has been roundly condemned here. But scratch beneath the surface in Derby, and people begin to talk about Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel and the oppression of Islam.

“Some people take Islam deeper than others,” said a young man on Normanton Road, by way of explaining Mr. Sharif’s motives. He declined to give his name, but said he was 19 and an unemployed second-generation Pakistani.

“Killing people is wrong, obviously, but if he was doing it for God himself — then fair enough,” said the man, checking his cellphone for the time, so he could get to the bank before it closed. “You have to be pretty brave to do something like that, to hold a bomb in your hand and blow yourself up.”

Across the street, a group of hair-gelled youths in Nike and Reebok sweatsuits perched on a railing and commented on the events involving Mr. Sharif. Inside, the older proprietor of a fast-food restaurant dismissed their comments with contempt, but talk they did.

“What he’s done is very good, and they won’t ever find him,” said Basu Hussain, 18, taking a break from his job at Lick’n Chick’n, a fast-food outlet. “We should all get together and kill all the Jews.”

Derby seems an incongruous crucible for such talk and for a suicide bomber, and Mr. Sharif an unlikely candidate for a position usually filled by young, unmarried men politicized from birth by virtue of growing up in places like Gaza or the West Bank.

Derby has always prided itself on the good relations between white Britons and Muslims of Pakistani descent, the preponderance of the 8.4 percent of the population identifying themselves as Asian. Although the unemployment rate among young Muslims is disproportionately high, there has been no ethnic violence of the sort that has taken place in other northern and midlands towns in recent years.

The British National Party, a right-wing political group that has gained ground in local governments by capitalizing on Britons’ fears of Muslim outsiders, has no presence here. Al Muhajiroun, a Muslim group that advocates overthrowing Western democracies, regularly tries to recruit believers here, but most Derby Muslims — although by no means all — dismiss it out of hand.

Mr. Sharif grew up in the heavily Pakistani Normanton district. It is here, in a neat Victorian row house with a large garden in the back, that his father, Mohammed, a prominent businessman originally from Kashmir who owned a laundry, a kebab restaurant, and other shops, moved with his wife and six children about 20 years ago. Both parents have since died.
In a country where many immigrants stick to their native languages at home, the family spoke English among themselves and wore Western clothes, said Hamida Akhtar, 54, who lives down the street on Breedon Hill Road and was a close friend of Mrs. Sharif. “They were very respectable and nice,” she said.
The family emphasized education for their children, and Omar, the youngest, was perhaps particularly privileged. Although he attended state schools (the equivalent of American public schools) in Derby for most of his childhood, between 1986 and 1988 he went to Foremarke Hall Preparatory School, set on acres of woods, fields and ponds about 20 minutes outside the city.
At 18, he enrolled in college in London, and came back transformed. He wore a beard and clothes that identified him as a religious Muslim. He prayed five times a day.
“He used to be dressed like this,” Ms. Akhtar said, pointing to her husband, Mohammed, who was wearing a suit and tie. “Suddenly, he was changed.” He had a new wife, too, named Tahira Tabassum, who wore a traditional Islamic head scarf.
In recent years, too, Mr. Sharif began spending more time with the local representatives of Al Muhajiroun, a group based at the Finsbury Park mosque in London that has several regional offices around Britain. Its leader, Omar Bakri Mohamed, told the Derby Evening Telegraph that Mr. Sharif had attended regular “ideological discussions” with the group at St. James’ Center, a community center on Malcolm Street. “I first noticed him because he could understand Arabic, which he said he had studied in Syria,” Mr. Mohamed told the paper.
The group has recently played down its links to violence, modifying public pronouncements in a way that seems aimed at consumption by the Western news organizations. But it has spoken very differently in the past, encouraging Britons to go to Afghanistan to fight on behalf of the Taliban, for example.
In 2000, it held a rally through the streets of Normanton, with placards urging the killing of Jews.
Last year, it sponsored a celebratory conference marking the anniversary of the Sept. 11 bombings; a fading notice advertising the event, with a picture of the burning twin towers and the words “a towering day in history,” is still stuck to a post outside the Rose Hill Street mosque.
The Finsbury Park mosque, Al Muhajiroun’s London base, is well known as a center for espousing anti-Western ideas. Among those who have passed through its doors are Richard C. Reid, the so-called shoe bomber, convicted in the United States of trying to carry out a suicide attack on a plane in 2001.
Most Muslims here tend to avoid people from Al Muhajiroun, who regularly waylay them as they leave the mosque after Friday Prayers.
“The literature they put out is embarrassing for mature members of the community, people who have more understanding,” said Fareed Hussain, a member of the Derby City Council. “Not only do they they put out propaganda against Jewish people, but also against Indian people, Sikhs and Hindus.”
But there are very real fears that they are offering something that young men, particularly the underemployed and frustrated, want to hear.
It is a hard time to be Muslim in this country. Many Muslims are particularly unhappy about the harsh antiterrorism measures introduced here in 2000 and tightened in 2001, which give broad powers of arrest and detention and have been used too enthusiastically, in the minds of some, by a government eager to demonstrate its antiterrorist credentials.
“We’re extremely worried about young people being susceptible to their message,” Shokat Lal, general secretary of the Pakistani Community Center, said of Al Muhajiroun. “The people in these groups present themselves as positive role models — they make you want to participate and be part of something.”
Mr. Lal said young men across Britain were at risk. “Muslim, and particularly Pakistani, youth at the moment seem to fall within two categories,” he said. “Either they join a fundamentalist group, as Sharif did, or they get involved in drugs and crime.”
One young Derby Muslim who admires what Mr. Sharif is said to have done is Shaban Yasin, 17. He works at a halal fish, chips and kebab shop that caters to all manner of multiethnic culinary tastes. Suicide bombing, he said, is the “wrong way” to kill the Jews, adding that, “We should find out the best way to kill them, and do that.”
Mr. Yasin grew up in Derby, too, and said that his parents, immigrants from Pakistan who settled here happily, had retired and were “living it large” on their British pensions. But, he said, he considers himself a Muslim first and foremost.
If he were to blow himself up for the cause, he said, “I think my parents would be proud of me.”

What drove them to such act is the same that will drive any other person. I totally understand them and back them 100%!

"Killing people is wrong, obviously, but if he was doing it for God himself — then fair enough"

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Suicide bombing achieves these people nothing, it’s only result is it has is delayed a Palestine state. This violence is void of intelligence as those who say this is the only way to respond to “Israeli aggression”. Killing oneself is easy once you believe that you will be rewarded for it, living and working for a peaceful solution not knowing the outcome is difficult, those who choose the first care not for those they leave behind who must deal with their consequences.

^
you mr don't think that palestinian's being killed by israeli's are not humans and that israeli's are not stalling the peace plan by killing palestinians on day basis. its israeli's who have 15 objections to the peace plan. isn't this a way to stall and derail the peace plan? you think that they have the God given right to go on a hunting spree and kill as many palestinian's as you can. you don't see palestinian's being killed. for you they deserve to be killed. but israeli's , on the other hand, should be left alone to do whatever they like to do.

Edited - Samarra

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
"Killing people is wrong, obviously, but if he was doing it for God himself — then fair enough"

...................................................................
Suicide bombing achieves these people nothing, it’s only result is it has is delayed a Palestine state. This violence is void of intelligence as those who say this is the only way to respond to “Israeli aggression”. Killing oneself is easy once you believe that you will be rewarded for it, living and working for a peaceful solution not knowing the outcome is difficult, those who choose the first care not for those they leave behind who must deal with their consequences.
[/QUOTE]

Well ask the Israelis to stop committing daily murders and brutalities against innocent Palestinians as well.

What an embarrasment to pakistanis :nook:

Punjab da sher you should not talk about NYA like this, albeit its the truth.:hehe:

Subhanallah , May Sharifs family get sabar. May Allah (SWOT) bless his family. Serves these Yahodiis right. They come in and kick palestinians out of there land. Palestinians that have NOTHING to defend themselves with. Go in with state of the art weaponary kill as many pple as they desire. Israel doesnt stand for PEACE!!!!. I just hope that palestininas/muslims can MAXIMIZE the no. of Jahodiis they kill each time they take Jame-shadat !!!!.

Zein

proves that bad upbringing and brainwashing by two bit thugs disguised as mullahs is as dangerous in Uk as it is in the middle east.

start throwing some of the psychos out and things will imrpove. idiots like bakri and his ilk walk around freely in Uk and mouth off their idiotic excuses for theories on national TV..

start dealing with assorted jackasses liek them and maybe the future generations will be protected from this brainwashing.

We dont want our siblings or friends or kids to hang out with criminals, drug dealers etc, why let them be influenced by psychotic intolerant thugs.

would another good question not be : how many white british and americans are pro war on Iraq or one of the future "evil" targets
and lets keep in mind the population of britain is far greater than the 2 or 3 million that went marching. And just as btw- isn't it interesting to watch how quickly even the larger majority of them were placated by Tony Blairs emotional retoric?
As far as the question of Pakistanis in this country being in favour of suicide bombing, I think that you'll find they are, in some degree. I certainly am. In a situation were your homes, lives and freedom are being swifly and brutally violated in an obvious and unmerciless manner and all you have to defend your HUMAN RIGHTS is your life, I see no reason why you should not sacrifice it. Keep in mind that mothers and sisters are sending out their brothers and sons-and in some cases the daughters of the house.We have all experianced the love of a mother. Now imagine how much and in what conditions a mother would volunteer a child. They must obviously feel that it is all they can do. It is certainly an act of immence bravery that I would not be able to carry out. And as far as why a BRITISH pakistani would want to be shahid is a question of individual phychee, i can promise you that the larger majority of them wouldn't dare, or feel as passionately about the human rights violations as these in question did. We cannot simply lump togeather a group of people just because they are pakistani or muslim. I can tell you of many indians who also refuse to learn the language=but how that accounts for anything I have no idea. Along with some Turks and even whites who refuse to intigrate, BNP rasists ring a bell?
It a question of a nation problem and the degree with which this country ie UK is willing to accept and tolerate the diverity which makes this country so special. Another thing, why the fact that Pakistani unemployment is higher than indian unemployment has anything to do with any thing I have no idea. Along with the fact that the sectarian violence in gujurat - what can also be called a genocide of sorts will probably have occupied their thoughts for such a long time that they failed to let their minds wonder to other autrosities. And people are so worried about the actual suiside bombings then they should do something to stop them feeling the need to blow them selves up to make a point. The hipocrasy of internation foriegn policies towards Iraq is getting me mad so I'll stop now.
But before I leave I'd like to say that there are many different types of people in this world with many different agendas and many different points of view. If we started to deport everyone simply because we do not agree with them then it wuld be censorship.

Sorry for the LONG post. I tend to rant and rave a little

It is not brave, after your brain washed into thinking you’ll be getting 72 virgins for killing innocent men, women, and children there's nothing brave about it.

Where in the Koran does it say kill innocent men, women, and children along with yourself?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
It is not brave, after your brain washed into thinking you’ll be getting 72 virgins for killing innocent men, women, and children there's nothing brave about it.

Where in the Koran does it say kill innocent men, women, and children along with yourself?
[/QUOTE]

under the dome, its not being brain washed, I personally dont back this act, though I do understand why these people do it.

why killing people with tanks is not terrorism and killing people with sucide bombing is terrorism?? can you explain?
ofcourse palestinians dont have tanks, they will certainly defend whatever they have got. they may get killed by israelli army without reason so the tend to do it when loosing life is nothing to them.

Leave virgins a side, deing for truth is enough when you dont ahve anything to look forward to.

we may all tend to do this kind of act if we happened to be there!

Though I totally dont understand going for suicide bombing, without thinking about his own family. Certainly Quran doesnt says to go for suicide bombing.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
It is not brave, after your brain washed into thinking you’ll be getting 72 virgins for killing innocent men, women, and children there's nothing brave about it.

Where in the Koran does it say kill innocent men, women, and children along with yourself?
[/QUOTE]

this issue is greater and deeper than just religion, although it comes beneath this umbrella as Islam is a way of life. These people have been repeatedly persecuted, to then sacrifice your life thinking or hoping that it will mean a better life for those that you leave behind is the bravery. In the koran it says protect your self and your home land-these people have nothing else with which to defend themselves, so they suiside bomb, although the idea of shahid has become twisted perhaps in the modern world. and the fact that even i believe that the man who is prepared to die for his beliefs is a brave man has nothing what so ever to do with brainwashing-although I'm not saying it doesn't occour. It could also be argued that western propaganda is a more sophisticated version leading to the same effect. Even martin Luther king said:
"The man who is not prepared to die for his beliefs does not deserve to live" the situation may have been different but the moral issues behind it remain the same. To speak out and take action under acts of percecution. And lets not forget the right wing zionist government of Isreal is feeding the fire of frustration and hate that these people thrive on, proclaiming that the death of every child is the way to go. Thats certainly not going to help.
I recently had the same convosation with a white friend of mine, at the end he said "well who cares about the ****ing palastinians? Its the Jews that matter!!!" This is an intelligent persons response btw!!
It is this international hipocrasy that the western world has in terms of foreign policies that drives suiside bombers and legitimises their action. I am not condoning the death of innocent children, I am agreeing in theory with suiside bombing and the idea that a man would die for freedom.

This type of nonsense only feeds the stereotype that Muslims are more worried about suicide bombings than education and intellectual achievements. This is exactly how people in the West start to hate certain minority groups and how racism begins.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kareem: *
...This is exactly how people in the West start to hate certain minority groups and how racism begins.
[/QUOTE]

Its just like US feeding Israel with money and weapons to kill Palestinians. This is exactly why people in "east/Islam" start to hate certain countries and suicide bombing begins.

which nonsense exactly?

"The man who is not prepared to die for his beliefs does not deserve to live" the situation may have been different but the moral issues behind it remain the same.
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What? There is nothing moral about killing innocent women, children, and babies. Martin Luther King is rolling over in his grave that you quoted him. Civil rights were not achieved by killing innocents, nor will statehood.

When people start to realize that these bombings are the problem and NOT the solution, attitudes will change and peace may become possible. If Palestinians could be pressured to "resort" to peaceful protests and diplomacy, Israel would be pressured to commit to a peaceful resolution as well. As long as extremists keep the violent cycle going, Israel (and her supporters) will feel free to continue their oppressive measures to curb the violence.

^ What a load of rubbish.

The Palestinians do not have centuries in their time span in order to carry out peaceful demostrations against illegal occupiers. Israel for the record, illegally occupy Palestine.

If the Palestinians resorted to peaceful handshakes requesting Israel to leave, they'll get shafted even more.

The simple solution is that if Israel was not occupying in the first place, there will be no bombings. It's a very simple equation. Get out!

Every time Israel gets out they expose themselves to terrorist bombings of innocent civilians. The security vaccuum that is not filled by Palestinian authorities is then filled by Israeli forces.

Your simplified "handshake" approach is the only tactic that is going to gain Palestinians their freedom. Israel is not going to leave the terrortories until the extremists are reeled in and stop threatening the security of every day Israelis. That would be like a farmer leaving his chicken coup door open to let fox to come in.