Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
Unjust laws that target one group for their beliefs is the very definition of persecution. Funny thing is taht likes of you living in west are defending these laws. Just imagine if the tables were turned…how would you feel?
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
Banning headscarfs in france is also persecution but I don’t see you shouting about that. Forcing Jews to wear a yellow badge so they could be identified was persecution. Keeping black people into slavery was persecution. Transporting black people from Africa to the US and the death of millions along the way was persecution.
Law to stop Ahmadis (which is a cult that was formed by Mr Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) to stop impersonating as muslims when they are not, is not persecution but for public good of the larger society. If they stop calling themselves muslims then they are totally free to practice their faith. They enjoy high positions in Pakistan and have their own places of worship. They face no persecution, although many of them will claim being persecuted in order to get asylum in the west where many of them are nowadays.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
Banning headscarfs in france is also persecution but I don't see you shouting about that.
Forcing Jews to wear a yellow badge so they could be identified was persecution. Keeping black people into slavery was persecution. Transporting black people from Africa to the US and the death of millions along the way was persecution.
Why are you giving these examples? Are you trying to justify persecution of Ahmadi Muslims since many other nations in the world persecuted others. One wrong cannot be justified by another.
[quote]
Law to stop Ahmadis (which is a cult that was formed by Mr Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) to stop impersonating as muslims when they are not, is not persecution but for public good of the larger society. If they stop calling themselves muslims then they are totally free to practice their faith. They enjoy high positions in Pakistan and have their own places of worship. They face no persecution, although many of them will claim being persecuted in order to get asylum in the west where many of them are nowadays.
[/quote]
Kindly make up your mind about your stance. On one hand you say that they are free to practice their religion but when they do you cry out that they are acting as muslims. What do you want them to do? Kuch khuda ka khauf karo. Don't try to play God. You have declared them non-muslims. Now you want them to consider themselves non-muslims too. This is plain idiocy. There are so many different versions of muslims. Do you get deceived by each other as well.
As far as their high positions are concerned, they have earned those with hard work but mullahs keep on pushing the government to remove them from the key posts. Will you deny this? They are not allowed to publish their books openly, they cannot have jalsa gathering, laws were made specifically targeting them, and they are harassed on the basis of these neo-nazi laws that have no precedence in Islamic history.
Remember, darkness dreads light and your fears are of similar sort.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
I was telling you what real persecution is and all these things were done by the West. I could add to that waging wars on false basis and as a result millions being slaughtered. Breaking the law (which is there for the greater good of society) and then pleading persecution is not persecution.
I would suggest that it is you that need to make up your mind. Either you are muslim and don't follow this false prophet called Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, or you follow Mr Ahmad and are not muslims. Btw nobody objects to you either being muslim or being followers of Mr Ahmad, what is objected is trying to be both which even to a lay person like me is not possible, because to be muslims by definition you cannot be followers of Mr Ahmad and vice versa. Even someone with very limited knowledge of Islam like me can understand this point.
Despite being non muslims if they earn high positions then there cannot exist any persecution of them.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
"The entity of the promised Masih (Mirza), in the sight of Allah is the entity of the holy Prophet. In other words, in the records of Allah, there is no duality or difference between the promised Masih and the holy Prophet; Rather they both share the same eminence, the same rank, the same status and the same name. Although verbally they are two, yet in reality they are one and the same". (Al-Fazl, Qadian, Vol. 3, No. 37, dated 16th September 1915, as cited in Qadiani Mazhab P. 207, 9th edition, Lahore)
"Many thrones have descended from heaven but thy throne has been placed the highest". (Tazkirah, 2nd Ed., P. 643) "The various accomplishments which were bestowed upon all other Prophets were concentrated in a greater degree in the holy Prophet. All those accomplishments have been conferred on me through the holy Prophets reincarnation in me. That is why I bear the names of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Solomon, Jesus, etc. All the previous Prophets were the incarnations of special attributes of the holy Prophet ,but I am the the reincarnation of all the attributes of the holy Prophet". (Malfoozat-e-Mirza, Vol. 3, P. 270)
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
This thread is not about discussing religious beliefs. If you want to discuss, please open a thread in Religion section. Moreover, the quotes you are misquoting are primarily in Arabic or urdu. so kindly provide the original text so that we can talk about it. I cannot trust anti-ahmadi translators fraudulent translation. For instance, there is no concept of re-birth or re-incarnation in Islam Ahmadiyya. A 'zil' or 'burooz' cannot be translated as re-incarnation.
You may ask any ahmadi even a kid, he will tell you that the holy prophet hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) and the Promised Messiah (as) are two different persons. They are same in the sense that same original teachings of Islam have been professed by the Promised Messiah (as) what were the teachings of the holy prophet (pbuh). Repeatedly, in his writings, he called himself a humble servant of the holy prophet (pbuh) and that is exactly each and every ahmadi believes.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
[QUOTE]
Breaking the law (which is there for the greater good of society) and then pleading persecution is not persecution.
[/QUOTE]
What greater good has been achieved by this law. Your society is in tatters as never before.
I pray to Allah that similar sort of laws will be made against your group or community in some part of the world and then I would like to see you preaching "conforming to the law" stuff to your people.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
Banning headscarfs in france is also persecution but I don't see you shouting about that. Forcing Jews to wear a yellow badge so they could be identified was persecution. Keeping black people into slavery was persecution. Transporting black people from Africa to the US and the death of millions along the way was persecution.
1) The head scarfs are not banned in France only burkas (head to toe covering). 2) Slavery was very common in Islamic world too & even today in Pakistan there are estimated 2 million+ boded laborers (modern day slavery). Btw, none of those things justify persecution of this group.
[quote]
Law to stop Ahmadis (which is a cult that was formed by Mr Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) to stop impersonating as muslims when they are not, is not persecution but for public good of the larger society.
[/quote]
In west many people consider Islam to be a cult, too, yet people are allowed to practice and preach Islam. Btw, what public good are you taking about?
[quote]
If they stop calling themselves muslims then they are totally free to practice their faith. They enjoy high positions in Pakistan and have their own places of worship. They face no persecution, although many of them will claim being persecuted in order to get asylum in the west where many of them are nowadays.
[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much Taliban thinking, too. How is what you are saying different from what Taliban are doing by sending in suicide bombers to kill people in mosques b/c according them they are sufficiently Muslim enough?
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
This thread is not about discussing religious beliefs. If you want to discuss, please open a thread in Religion section. Moreover, the quotes you are misquoting are primarily in Arabic or urdu. so kindly provide the original text so that we can talk about it. I cannot trust anti-ahmadi translators fraudulent translation. For instance, there is no concept of re-birth or re-incarnation in Islam Ahmadiyya. A 'zil' or 'burooz' cannot be translated as re-incarnation.
You may ask any ahmadi even a kid, he will tell you that the holy prophet hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) and the Promised Messiah (as) are two different persons. They are same in the sense that same original teachings of Islam have been professed by the Promised Messiah (as) what were the teachings of the holy prophet (pbuh). Repeatedly, in his writings, he called himself a humble servant of the holy prophet (pbuh) and that is exactly each and every ahmadi believes.
You have failed to provide me with teachings of your promised messiah in English, therefore I am trying to seek the truth where I can find it. All my quotes give the direct source of the information and even mention the page numbers of your books. You have failed to refute any of these quotes.
**"We believe that a religion which does not have the chain of prophethood (as in Islam-- Compiler) is a dead religion. We call the religions of the Jews, the Christians and the Hindus dead only because now there are no prophets in them. If this were the position in Islam too, we would be no more than mere story-tellers. Why do we regard it superior to other religions? It must have some distinction". (Malfoozat-e-Mirza, Vol. 10, P. 127).
***"During the lifetime of the promised Masih (Mirza Qadiani), at the proposal of Moulvi Muhammad Ali and Khwaja Kamaluddin, the Editor of *Akhbar-e-Watan started a fund-collecting scheme in 1905 for the purpose of sending copies of the *Review of Religions *to foreign countries, on the condition that it should not contain the name of the promised Masih (Mirza Qadiani). But 'hazrate aqdas' (Mirza Qadiani) rejected this proposal saying: Will you present dead Islam by excluding me?' Thereupon, the Editor Watan announced the closure of this fund-collecting scheme".
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, Vol. 16, No. 32, dated 19th October, 1928, as cited in Qadiani Mazhab, P. 461-462).
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
What greater good has been achieved by this law. Your society is in tatters as never before.
I pray to Allah that similar sort of laws will be made against your group or community in some part of the world and then I would like to see you preaching "conforming to the law" stuff to your people.
All laws are made for the greater good of society. These laws should be respected and not broken. You claim persecution but can you tell me how many Ahmadis have been prosecuted by the Pakistani police in the last 5 years? There is more persecution in the west where a black person is more likely to be stopped and searched than a white person. Where a black person will get more severe sentence than a white person for the same crime. You are crying woolf but cannot prove that they are being persecuted. This thread is about the first prosecution (possibly although charges could be dropped later?) and you admit that your fellow believers of the messiah are doing rather well in Pakistan.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
this case would be comparable to hijab ban in france if some frenchie asked a muslim politely to show him how to wear a hijab correctly, and then took a pic of the muslim while doing this, beat her up and got the police to lock her in with the pic as evidence.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
This is from Wikipedia:
**The initiators of the law are said to have particularly targeted two items of clothing: the headscarf and the veil (French: foulard and voile respectively); however the law mentions neither and just addresses “ostentatious” (“conspicuous”) symbols. Because of its terse, broad, vague terms, the law will leave a lot of its interpretation to the administrative and judicial authorities.
The headscarf (sometimes referred to as the hijab in both French and English) covers the hair, ears, neck, and sometimes the shoulders, but not the face. Most Muslim girls who cover their heads in school wear such a headscarf. More rarely, girls may also wear a complete dress covering their body (djelbab).
**
I thought that Islam had abolished slavery. Correct me if I am wrong as I admitted that I am no expert on islam. Is bonded labour legal in Pakistan or is that criminal act as well? If bonded labour is banned by the law then that would be for the greater good of society.
Can a religion of 1.2 billion people be a cult?
There is a big difference between saying people should not break the law and actually committing very serious crimes. So you can brush me as Taleban.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
this case would be comparable to hijab ban in france if some frenchie asked a muslim politely to show him how to wear a hijab correctly, and then took a pic of the muslim while doing this, beat her up and got the police to lock her in with the pic as evidence.
At his place of work he would happen to have a quran and would want to read the quran in front of 2 random strangers as opposed to addressing their medical needs?
Most likely he was trying to convert them to his cult and they got offended, and informed authorities that he was using his clinic to commit crimes.
This is like someone taking off her headscarf in front of the teacher but putting it on again as soon as teacher is not looking and trying to make a mockery of the law, and thinking that she is too smart for the law but at the end the law won.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
clinic to commit crimes. LOL
well, poor ahmedis.. supported the pakistan movement pretty hard, and this is what they get.
If they haven't got an asylum in the west already then perhaps your India can give them asylum. I hope India does not say they do not face persecution in order not to give them asylum. However I think that even India will say they face no persecution. To think about it why would they want to leave Pakistan when they are doing well there, unless they come to the west.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
i like how you are so chilled out about asylum. eff them, let them go get asylum. nice..
No I love them really, but I am just trying to say that persecution is B******T. I have nothing against them personally and I met one I would not treat him or her any different from anyone else. But where they are wrong they are wrong and we are trying to have a debate. In fact I would be the first one to speak up for them or any other group if they faced genuine problems.
Re: British doctor in Pakistan arrested for reading Koran
At his place of work he would happen to have a quran and would want to read the quran in front of 2 random strangers as opposed to addressing their medical needs?
Most likely he was trying to convert them to his cult and they got offended, and informed authorities that he was using his clinic to commit crimes.
This is like someone taking off her headscarf in front of the teacher but putting it on again as soon as teacher is not looking and trying
to make a mockery of the law, and thinking that she is too smart for the law but at the end the law won.
Zia jis ki baqiat bhi nahi raheen Lekin iss shakal mein dekhne ko mil jati hain!
Allah sab ko har shar se mehfooz rakhe Ameen.