Breastfeeding in public

Lifestyle Parenting, Household Affairs and Cuisine corner
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Re: Breastfeeding in public

The urge to pee and defecate is a natural one, too. And some kids may be too uncomfortable to go behind a tree or a bush, so does that mean you let your bachay bachoongray freely empty their bladders and bowels in public spaces in plain view of all and sundry each and every time nature calls? Why is it okay if that results in people scrunching their noses and shaking their heads at the "immodesty" but feeling bashful at a woman pulling out her boob receives censure? Yes, it's natural for babies to get hungry, but have some hayaa....by making the act a bit less conspicuous. There are ways to work around this. Yes, folks are supposed to lower their gaze but don't rely fully on that, do your own part as well. OP, I agree with you and I am sorry that your maadran friends had a go at you.

Reminds me of a really cheap scene I once saw in a b'wood movie that I found disturbing. A woman was sitting in a train and trying to get her baby to drink the milk and the pervert next to her (Shakti Kapoor, surprise surprise? Not really) tells the kid to drink the milk or otherwise he'll drink it. Why would you wanna risk hearing such off color remarks in real life as well? Just because, you as a mommy, see your breastfeeding as something beautiful and natural and non-sexual...don't mean others will share the same sentiments.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

So if there is nothing wrong with breast-feeding in public w/o a cover and nothing wrong with other people…in a public place…watching a mother as she breastfeeds…then is there any anything wrong with someone taking picture of it? After all…breastfeeding is nothing to be ashamed of right? Women who do it without using any sort of cover in public obviously don’t feel uncomfortable if other men and women see the top of the breast…or even a occasional peek at her nipples.

Jason’s Deli employee fired after taking photos of breastfeeding San Antonio mom - Houston Chronicle

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

This is part of the point I was trying to make. 99.9% of the time the women have a choice. Just like in your case.....you don't want to use the cover and I'm sure sitting in the car or somewhere else may not be the most comfortable thing for you.....but you still do it b/c you refuse to have your breasts exposed in public (even if's while feeding your baby).

Yep.....this is all this boils down to. How much modesty a woman has in regards to her body. We desis......(especially is born/raised in a Muslim family) are taught this concept of modesty very differently than women who have European/Australian or other non desi backgrounds.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

taking picture is a different thing. That would be invasion of privacy if there was no consent. Would be it ok if a random guy just starting taking your picture at a restaurant ? No you wouldn't, nobody would be okay with it. Just because there is nothing wrong with other people seeing you in a restaurant eating food doesn't mean anybody can come by my table and start snapping pics of me without my permission

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

1) There are video cameras in MANY public places. You really don't know who's looking at those. Its a risk we all take when we go out in public....whether naked or not.

2) Personally, I wouldn't freak out if someone started taking pictures of me while I'm outside. I cover all the body parts that I don't want to display. I don't go out or do anything in a public place that I would be ashamed of if someone were to take a picture.

3) No one has to come to your table to take pictures of you. These days pretty much everyone has a camera on their cell phone. How do you know that someone sitting at another table isn't taking pictures of you? When others are taking pictures....what do you do to prevent yourself from being in the background? If you see someone taking a pic and think that you may have been in the background, do you feel ashamed or throw a hissy fit?

4) Legally, generally speaking you do not have a expectation of privacy in public places. This gets super complicated but is related to why the employee in this case wasn't arrested....actually, even though the women complained, no legal action was taken against the man. And keep in mind that man owns copyright to the picture he took so there's really nothing to prevent him from putting that all over the internet if he wants to.

Even in the news story.......the breastfeeding woman AND her sister didn't even realize someone was taking a picture until they heard the clicking sound. Let's face it.....the ONLY reason this woman made a fuss is b/c she was breastfeeding (ie. exposed her boobs) while her picture was taken. Realistically, odds are if she chest was 100% covered and she heard that clicking sound while at that deli, she wouldn't have cared at all.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

Security cameras are different and they are everywhere. And they are needed for security purposes. I don't understand how can you compare security cameras to a person taking someones picture deliberately without consent on his personal phone/camera. There is a big creepy and stalkish factor to it.

And its not always about showing your skin. Why does everything boils down to skin? If I am just chilling at a restaurant minding my own business and random person starts taking my picture on his cell phone (discretely) and I hear the clicking sound and I found out about it, I would be pissed. He has no right whatsoever ... what possible purpose could he have? security? nope .. thats what the ceiling cams for .. it just adds a creepy and pervy factor which normal person does not like. You might be ok with random dudes taking your pics in public but most of the people won't be.

Being in the background is different. You are not the person's objective if you are in the background. Its just common sense. You don't feel ashamed or throw a hissy fit. I don't believe that breast feeding momma would have any problem if I am taking a picture of my family in a restaurant and she is in the background. She won't even notice it. Or even if she does she would just move away. But if I deliberately take her pic then yea thats not good. Why should she be blamed for feeding her baby in public? ... its like saying since you are feeding the baby in public, I would call all the neighborhood boys and make them watch you since they haven't seen boobies. Even though it is not illegal, its not right either. Common sense!

Yea no charges would be filed which is understood. He was being creepy thats all for which he was fired because he was the employee of the deli and was supposed to make customers comfortable .. not freak them out . customer service 101.

I agree she over reacted and went to the police and all but its her right. A complaint to the manager would have been enough though.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

Actually, it’s illegal in Australia and many other countries to harass women who are breastfeeding.

You really have to stop attaching this stigma to it. Wear a burqa if you want to show how modest you are. Make sure you don’t forget your hands and ankles. Just because YOU think it’s shameful doesn’t mean that YOU should impose it on others when they are legally allowed to do it… and it’s natural.

Stop attaching stigma to breastfeeding. It’s very outdated and only came about a couple of centuries ago.

You guys might want to read this
http://home.southernct.edu/~wiesee1/chapter1.htm
end paragraph
Throughout time, the choice to breastfeed went from being the natural, normal option to one of ridicule and embarrassment. With culture ever changing, breastfeeding bard the brunt of the change. Even though breastfeeding has been a source of nourishment from the beginning of time, changing social ideals and conformity have caused the special feeding process between mother and child to be stigmatized and forgotten. As women became more modest and social births decrease, lack of knowledge about the birthing and breastfeeding processes further caused women to overlook the breastfeeding practice. The history

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

Because the only reason you would take a picture of it is to make it sexual, either for your consumption or someone else’s. Security cameras are not used for that purpose and neither are the security officers viewing the footage getting their jollies out of it. I’m pretty sure the guy wasn’t taking her picture to post on a pro-nursing board,

It is very much an invasion of privacy in both cases, however, one is more acceptable because it is for our safety.

As far as would we care otherwise, absolutely I would! Let anyone even try to take a picture of myself, my kids or my family while we are out and about and you can bet there’s gonna be a confrontation.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

EXACTLY.
Except I would have also gone to the cops if that person had not immediately deleted the photos and shown me proof of that.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

So, basically OP.

It depends on what century you want to live in... Nowadays, people are becoming more and more vocal about ending the stigma against breastfeeding in public and rightly so.

Equating people taking pictures of you and security cameras is quite a stretch though. It's rather funny that one commented on public urination and defecating as the same as breastfeeding... even though people don't defecate or urinate in public for health reasons not "modesty"

In what world do you live in that breastfeeding is unhygienic? because really that's what your equating it to.
@Pisiform is right.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

You did not just compare nourishing your child with defecating! Seriously.

Pooing and peeing are acts that pollute the environment for everyone around you, not to mention it is pretty filthy and uncomfortable to wipe yourself and maintain good hygiene if that's what you choose to do. This is why these acts will always remain private and what separates us from many third world countries where there is lack of awareness about this. Breastfeeding your baby pollutes nothing. If it is offensive to you because breasts are purely and only sexual objects for you, then look away, by all means, or walk away or request a different table. That doesn't sound great, does it? "But why should I have to?" etc, well, why should a nursing mom have to?? She's nourishing her child. You're enjoying a peep show. Doesn't take a lot to get judgey about right and wrong in that statement, does it?

As for that last comment of yours, I'm sorry, I truly am, but do you also blame rape victims for their assault? Because what you said right there is so ridiculous, I have no words. Why would I "risk hearing it"?? But it's perfectly ok for a third party to make that comment?? You've effectively taken all blame off the perverted dude and placed it squarely on the mom. As one woman to another, I have to say, shame on you.

I do have a huge issue with the concept of hayaa. I have a daughter now and whilst I will absolutely teach her to dress modestly and be aware of how the public- good and bad- perceives her and teach her self respect for HERSELF etc etc... I will NEVER teach her to be embarrassed or ashamed of her body. That is what was put forth to me as hayaa and it can so easily translate into self esteem issues and I would not want her to ever go through that. I'm curious how hayaa was defined for you ladies in practice as you were growing up?

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

I absolutely love @somegroovychick’s words. I was raised without all this social stigma, but with modesty. Thanks to my mother I don’t really have these insecurities that many, many girls have about their body… from facial hair (I didn’t even know what threading was till recently) to just fat in general. So, basically since I was never raised to think like that I don’t know what it’s like to hate or be ashamed of your own body/looks.

@sgc I hope your daughter will be as great as you are when she’s your age… and giving poor confused people like me wedding advice haha.

sorry this was just me gushing over sgc

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

Doesn't common sense tell us that there are pervets/creeps/jerks out there, and we should do everything in power to protect ourselves? Its not right for someone to steal my car either but that doesn't mean I'm not going to lock it. As for the neighborhood boys thing.....well yea that could happen. So a woman who is 100% comfortable breastfeeding in public all of a sudden becomes uncomfortable if 10 guys show up and want to witness this natural, non-sexual act?

1) He could have taken it to make fun of it or just share it in his FB/twitter whatever as a "Look what I saw today...". Its not 100% certain that he would have used this for his own sexual satisfaction.

2) Re: Security cameras. You actually would be surprised how often employees are fired for mis-using security footage. It's not uncommon for creepy employees to use footages from elevators, nights clubs where drunk people do stupid things and other random places in a sexual manner. It's not unheard of that employees make a quick copy of "interesting" things they see in the security footage (ie. for example in hotels or other places where there is someone literally watching the monitor 24/7).

You would confront of them....yes.....but would YOU do anything differently after that or next time? Would you change who you or your family dresses, or the places you visit (you may not go back to that restaurant but you won't stop going to restaurants period) etc.? In this case....the mother grabbed a napkin to cover herself. In another article....it stated that the mother said she won't be as comfortable next time breastfeeding in public and will consider using a cover or being less conspicuous. Why? If she doesn't feel like she did anything wrong.....why cover herself with a napkin or be uncomfortable in the future doing the exact same thing she was doing this time?

On a side note.....how does this fit into what Islam teaches us and the cultural values we practice in regards to covering our bodies? Desi Muslim women reading this......would you teach your daughters that its ok to uncover her breasts in public for this purpose if she wants to in the future? Would you be 100% comfortable if you were sitting next to your husband/father/FIL etc., and a woman started openly breastfeeding in the table next to you (or close by where she was clearly visible)?

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

Dunno about Canada but in the U.S., cops would tell you that they can’t do anything (going by current laws). Once that picture is taken…the “damage” is already done.

Makes me think…this would have been a great topic for my comment in law review when I was in school… :hmmm:

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

The problem is not about whether one is covered or not. The problem is that if we should judge the other person or not.

Some of us are saying we shouldn’t judge because it’s natural etc etc

others saying we should judge because of personal reasons

I don’t think people should attach stigma to what is natural. I don’t think we should victim blame and I certainly do not think that we should equate it to something unhygienic.

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

First of all, a mother is a person and a human being. You can't put a mother and a car in the same boat. And yea there are pervs and rapist out there. Does that mean you should stop going outside, or don't leave without burka and your husband because if you leave wearing tight clothes you would be expecting this and if you get assaulted it would be your fault because you forgot your burka? Thats radical BS. Or if a girl goes out to a club wearing a skirt and she gets assaulted it means that she was 'asking for it' or was at fault? Absolutely not. If you do blame the girl, then sorry thats absurd and I can't even hold this conversation. If not, then its the same premise. Let me give you the car example, you said she should lock her car because if not then the car would get stolen. So you are basically blaming the person that it was because of her action that her car got stolen. I am saying even if she didn't lock her car, the thief does not have any right to steal the car in the first place and must be prosecuted.

I am not a parent or anything so I would just leave at that. Just wanted to contribute my $0.02

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

Ah no. My point was that since we know that there are perverts/creeps etc. in our society…because common sense tells us that people don’t always do what’s “right” or what they “should”…we take many steps to protect ourselves and do everything possible in our power to reduce the chances of becoming a victim. Women in Pakistan don’t usually cover up and generally make sure they don’t do out with a male family member…why is that?

Back when I was in grad school, around exam time I would stay at the library until midnight. If there was a group of girls left at that time and we were talking together…and by group I mean at least like 5 or more…we would walk together to the parking lot. If I was alone, I would ask the security guard to walk with me. Did I think I deserved being assaulted/raped by walking alone? No. Does that mean I shouldn’t do everything in power to keep myself safe? After all…just like the guy taking the picture…once I’ve been assaulted/raped…what’s the point in discussing whether I deserved it or not? The damage is done. Heck why do we tell women not to accept drinks from people they don’t know in bars and clubs? The list goes on and on.

Yea I’m not a parent either which is why I asked the question about pumping earlier. I’m simply sharing my thoughts from the other side…the side that could be sitting at a restaurant or sitting next to my father at an airport when all of a sudden I see someone’s boob pop out (nipple and all) to breastfeed (ok and maybe part of me loves playing the devil’s advocate too). :halo:

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

This reminds me of what happened at the Victoria’s Secret of all places, where the message was “boobs are objects to be fetishized and displayed for pleasure and entertainment, not function.”

Breastfeeding Mom Learns Victoria’s Secret Doesn’t Always Support Boobs

(note Victoria’s Secret disagreed with the employee’s behavior and did apologize)

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

uh...
Shouldn't we educate the people to not do those things... being perverted etc rather then telling the women to protect themselves... avoid... don't wear this that don't go out etc etc?

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Re: Breastfeeding in public

it's interesting to hear different sides of this for sure. I am not against breastfeeding at all, I guess I personally feel slightly uncomfortable with seeing it, and being somewhat modest myself my initial comment was why don't people just cover? Never having had children I didn't know there were actual reasons you couldn't cover, which was definitely interesting to hear.

That being said I feel uncomfortable when women wear tops where their boobs are hanging out as well. Interestingly enough midriff baring doesn't bother me as much, not quite sure why.