I know Christians have this concept. But never heard of it in Muslim world. I consider myself a born again Muslim , that too not a very good one. I am striving to be one good Muslim but still very confused. I have no confusion when it comes to Quran.
But when it comes to Ahadees , Sunnat, Fiqh then it all becomes very confusing.
I find so much difficulty with many Ahadees , others do not, their logic is that there is no logic in Islam , you just submit to will of Allah , I say yes I submit to Will of Allah but I do not Submit to ahadees which I consider go against common logic , sharia and other ahadees and sunnat.
Then their strongest point is , hey you are not at a point where you can challenge ahadees, so go and sit in a corner and keep quiet. I did not go to any madarsa, all my knowledge is self taught. I do not agree to the point which some people throw at me that you need a teacher , a shaikh, a pir , a mentor. I agree to it to some extent but not fully.
What do you have to say about it all ?
Re: Born again Muslim ?
umm…and wat type of ahadeeth dont make sense to u ???
mind sharing??
any example so we can go on with the behas 
Re: Born again Muslim ?
If you have no problem with Quran then there shouldn't be much problem for you.
Now your job is not to analyse Hadith or Fiqah or Sunnat, nor you need to.
All you need to do is to consider the Ahadith that pertain to "your" life, again they are pretty much agreed upon.
Bro Mirch, me exactly like you. I have bounced back from the other side of the fence. Been there done that. Now I try to really understand why I am a muslim. I also have issues with following hadith blindly or let me say literally, not with all but some of them once in a while. So far with my understanding on religion I have rarely had an issue assimilating it into my daily routine and life, sometimes I do think whether that is a good sign or bad one.
We can discuss it in some other thread , I do not want to derail this one.
If I need to live my life based on Quran and Hadees , sure it is my job to analyse ahadees, even the Quran tells you to analyze Quran itself.
I do not agree to the pretty much agreed upon part. Shia Fiqh does not accept any hadees by Hazrat Abu Hurera(RA) and Hazrat Aisha (RA).
Now don’t tell me that they are not Muslim for that reason or any other reason. I condider them very much Muslim so do most of sunny ulema now.
Thanks for sharing. I strive too and according to my understanding , that is all Islam demands from you, strive to lead your life within Islamic framework judgement is in Allah’s domain.
If I need to live my life based on Quran and Hadees , sure it is my job to analyse ahadees, even the Quran tells you to analyze Quran itself.
I do not agree to the pretty much agreed upon part. Shia Fiqh does not accept any hadees by Hazrat Abu Hurera(RA) and Hazrat Aisha (RA). Now don't tell me that they are not Muslim for that reason or any other reason. I condider them very much Muslim so do most of sunny ulema now.
Dear, i am talking about the things that concern our daily life, like prayer, Zakaat, charity, dealing with spouse, parents, children, others in community etc.
As for the shia/sunni differences its all a mountain made out of mole. None of it actually concerns our daily life and if you go into it, you'll remain confused.
Re: Born again Muslim ?
Peace my bro Mirch
I have a friend in the same situation. Alhumdulillah I try not to over analyse hadith, but I try to be open-minded to it. With respect to the Qur'an I try to criticise it and find it fruit giving when I truly am stumped then hadith and fiqh make it clear.
Below are three ayahs which point towards the concept of hadith being an aspect of Islam that we should follow.
Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 31. Say: "If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Surah An-Nahl verse 44. (We sent them) with Clear Signs and scriptures and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
Surah An-Nisaa verse 59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.
With regards to learning from a scholar, I believe there are key points that are void from books that are gained from 'Ulema. Tarbiyyah and context. It is true people can become scholars from books, just like a scholar a book is only as good as the words in it and how well it is understood by the reader. To sit face-to-face with someone will provide knowledge from other avenues. Such as the seeing the actions, hearing the words, feeling the environment, which are all locked away for our imaginations to handle when we limit our knowledge sources to just reading. Imam Zaid Shakir quoted another scholar whose name I have forgotten and he mentioned that according to the consensus of scholars it is possible for a person to become a self-taught scholar but across the board they will be deficient in tarbiyyah, which can only come from person to person.
The idea of having an opinion is the path towards the fuelling of ego. It is better to choose from an established opinion than to choose our own. This hopefully will appeal to your logic because if everyone should practice their own understanding then we will develop a very disjointed society with actions being explained away by opinion. Alas, having an opinion has very strict guidelines and rules and the reason why scholars are the ones where an opinion is valid is because having devoted their life to study of Islam they are better equipped with the full information at hand. We may find three of four references, but they may have more insight in context from previous discourses with their own teachers.
A modern problem is developing in that scholars are being removed from the Earth sciences in their schooling which will mean non-scholars who have studied such sciences will be more qualified than them in some areas.
I admire your honesty in this matter brother. I do however, feel there is a place for 'logic' and that is to only support the reflecting aspect of knowledge. True knowledge is weight greater than we can bear, we but put on different spectacles to view that knowledge. Logic will blind us from other areas that we gain understanding. This is 'guidance' rather than the cognitive aspects of the term. As a mathematics tutor I can see limitations in Math and therefore logic.
For example 1 + 1 = 2 ... it is just as much a belief that this is so as 'there is God'. One requires fewer intuitive pathways to cross and we call this logic.
To view things 'logically' we are making assumptions that are implicit in the discourse. For example ... All triangles have internal angles that add up to 180 degrees. This is true not for all triangles really it is true for planar triangles. Even this statement is subject to view we have of three dimensions, which carries with it it's own set of implicit assumptions. Just to appease those math fans ... There is a triangle that is made up of three 90 degree internal angles, it is an eighth section cut from a sphere. The edges of which make this triangle. This statement according to assumption that shapes can only exist in 2D will be an illogical conclusion.
Other areas where logic does not go ... Say a man swears at another man just because he wants to show that he is fearless. The second man kills him. Neither men utilise their logic to assess what consequences their actions will make. Therefore we can conclude in things that happen 'logic' will be compromised .... often! Especially with regards to emotional people. In such cases 'logic' cannot be used to create a framework for how the universe operates. It will need to be encompassing of logic but at the same time it will need to handle such 'illogical' cases. In artificial intelligence research they are trying to find a way how to hide 'logic' in layers of protocols to simulate 'illogical' behaviour.
Everyone has their demons ... their tests that are sent by Allah (SWT) ...
When we reach a stage that we can put down bias and habit and reflect by mind, heart and whole self can we then begin to understand ourselves and the universe, inshaAllah. May we be guided. Ameen.
Re: Born again Muslim ?
hadith deals primarily with 2 issues those regarding political aspects of deen which are roughly the shia / sunni things ] and personal aspects of deen
both are equally important but we cannot implement the political aspects in the situation we have in today's world, unfortunately ...despite this politics is a an integral part of islam
following any political system that contradicts islam is basically idolatry
may God forgive us for our weakness and inability to implement the political aspects of faith
however in present situations we can atleast follow the personal aspects of deen according to hadith.In these minor variations can occur like how to fold hands in prayers? how to do wudh? there are authentic hadith explaining various different ways ....even if we can stick to one of these methods we atleast make can an effort to follow the sunnah.
But we shud be refrain from those who abandon hadith altogather just because they find it too complicated or inconvenient
Dear, i am talking about the things that concern our daily life, like prayer, Zakaat, charity, dealing with spouse, parents, children, others in community etc.
.
bro i think what he means is that e.g if abu huraira narrates a hadith about hajj even if its something totally unrelated to shia-sunni political stuff] its unlikely to be accepted by shias as abu huraira to them is an unreliable narrater in hadith
bro i think what he means is that e.g if abu huraira narrates a hadith about hajj even if its something totally unrelated to shia-sunni political stuff] its unlikely to be accepted by shias as abu huraira to them is an unreliable narrater in hadith
Then again most things about Hajj are pretty much agreed upon, like Ehraam, Tawaaf, Mina, Muzdalfa, Arafa etc
Re: Born again Muslim ?
^ I am just using hajj as an example of an issue unrelated with politics
If you have no problem with Quran then there shouldn't be much problem for you.
That is not entirely correct. A person needs to believe in the validity and the infalibility of the Hadith and to act upon them.
This obligation has been placed upon us by the Quran:
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger...
Surah Mohammad, Verse 33
Hence whoever does not believe in the Hadith or has issues with the Hadith, by neccessity, does not have firm belief in what is stated in the Quran.
This is a critical and alarming issue because the Islam of that person is in danger.
Re: Born again Muslim ?
^I agree that if a person beleives that he does not need to act upon Hadith then thats a major issue.
What i am trying to say that if a person is confused bcoz of different issues or Fiqahs bcoz of differences on strengths or interpretation of Ahadith then it should not be a big issue for him. Bcoz most Ahadith that pertain to our day to day lives are mutawatir and pretty much agreed upon.
^ I am just using hajj as an example of an issue unrelated with politics
Brother
My point was that when it comes to our conduct in daily life, the Ahadith in this regard are pretty much agreed upon.
Re: Born again Muslim ?
I do not have issues with accepting ahadees which relate to Islamic abadat of , Namaz , Roza , Zakat , Hajj, Ahadees which explain many verses of Quran, ahadees which teach same morals and standards specified in Quran.
I have problem with ahadees which go beyond Quran and make things haram which have not been made haram in Quran, for example , drawing pictures of animate objects, music , poetry, wearing of gold and silk by men.
Ahadees which specify death penalty for Zina by stoning to death , Quran does not specify death penalty for Zina , let alone by stoning.
Death penalty for Apostates , Quran does not specify death penalty for Apostasy.
I know a very big group of ulema says that Rasool Allah(SAW) received wahi for other purposes than revelation of Quran. I do not deny that. But It is hard for me to accept that Rasool Allah received wahi for penal code and daily conduct of a Muslim outside of and beyond Quran.
Can someone enlighten me ?
Re: Born again Muslim ?
^Dear, not big but all Ulema agree that Prophet saw received Wahi inaddition to Quran and several aayats in Quran point to it as well.
I would just say that worry/ask/discuss/research about the things that pertain to your personal life.
Thats akin to saying “I have problems with the Quran”.
For more information check this out
^ Wow, that's quite a statement. Especially since so many hadith have been proven false over the centuries.
Not only does that elevate the prophet's word to the status of the Quran (God's words), but takes it further by elevating the haphazardly collected tradtions and words gathered centuries later to the same level as the Quran.
Don’t be so judgmental and ignorant please. I never said I have problems with Quran or Problems with all the hadees.
If all the ahadees are as good as Quran then how do you give authority to Imam Bukhari, Imam Abu Dawood, etc to reject a lot more ahadees saying that they were false , fabricated or week ahadees and they were not included by them in their compilations.
Who gave them this kind of authority , Allah , Prophet (SAW) , people of the time , ruler of the time . No
Their own judgment , yes , so if they could use their judgment , instinct, logic, knowledge, rules to reject ahadees . I can do the same. Don’t tell me I do not qualify for the job. I think I do. Allah (SWT) has granted me knowledge and wisdom to judge a hadees.
And I am not forcing you to accept what I think, you should not force me to belive in what you think.
Re: Born again Muslim ?
Peace Mirch bro
Certain sciences exist around hadith that you should be aware of. I highly recommend going on one of the courses that are available for this end.
Or a book perhaps …
http://islamworld.net/docs/hadith.html
The scholars are a bit more qualified than just intellect or wisdom regarding the hadith. They are familiar with the commentaries of previous scholars and also have more knowledge of hadeeth at large than us. It puts them in a situation where they can see the fuller picture.
Some hadith can still be muttawatir and at the same time confuse us to bits. These are called gharib. So in reality even hadith can be classified in more than just one way. Muttawatir was seen as a good criteria for authenticity. Many ‘true’ hadith have probably been left out of the Bukhari and Muslim collections as a result, because it is quite possible that many true hadith did not manage to make the muttawatir criterion. You will see that the hadith collections are done under subject headings this is a bit like a hypothesis process in a science experiment.
The greater the number of muttawatir hadith, with the fewer being odd in meaning or interpretation and narrated by the more reliable witnesses and make contextual validity outside the hadith i.e. time and date when said and who listened, etc. There increases in likelihood the probability that the said hadith is true but not for the sake of deeming it true rather for the sake of proving the point the scholar or compiler of hadith is trying to make.
In hadith we are told that we should take care of the Qur’an and the Sunnah we do this by creating protocol and measures to preserve the dictum. Both in hadith and the Qur’an. With Qur’an we also preserve the way it is recited, but with hadith we preserve who said it and to whom. Little meaning is derived from the hadith at the stage of classification, but more meaning is taken from it when an issue turns up to be analysed.
This is a rigorous scientific method and should suffice. The hadith described as fabricated are duly given the full treatment before which they are still treated as possible sayings of Muhammad (SAW). A lot of implied things were understood wthout having them needed in the hadith. So a lot of traditions are also without hadith. To follow them one needs to sit with scholars to get those values. I call them soft issues. The soft issues are acquired through uthna bethna with the scholars to see how they are enacting in behaviour what their teachers have done. You will find some scholarly writings to this effect on Tazkiya, etc.
We should entertain the idea that we could be wrong in the way we understand either an ayah or a hadith. I mentioned in a previous thread that the Qur’an has been made easy to recall and recite but not necessarily easy to understand.
One pattern you will see in hadith and Qur’an … Often you will see an issue touched upon by the Qur’an and the remainder of that issue the Qur’an is silent on it. But it is taken up by hadith. One example of this is ascension and descension of Isa (AS). The Qur’an talks of the ascension, but only in one ayah does it point to the idea that he will return. That ayah can mean one of two different things. The hadith clarify this point. You should also put a very strict criteria to what is or is not a contradiction. It has to fulfil the rules of logic to be a contradiction. If the hadith say wudu is invalidated by such and such and the Qur’an says do wudu before praying, we cannot conclude that the appearance of a new prayer time invalidates the wudu for it to be done again. If this was the case the hadith should have picked it up. We therefore cannot conlcude the meaning of a given word like ‘when’ means ‘whenever’ because that limits the meaning of the Arabic and hence creates the contradiction you see. Just another example.