faceup,
Those that have firm beliefs in their faith will not even entertain your approach to debate....forget about being convinced by your statements.
You still haven't replied to the questions raised in my first post.
Rather we can bring hundreds of examples of Mercy & Compassion of Allah, but the few we supplied, are enough for the point we are trying to make, and you have not been able to respond to these. You have not stated their alternative. All you stated was, that you and other deviants have rejected these laws.
My reason for this response is to clear your confusion over the meanings of Mercy & Compassion. You see the greatest act of Mercy that Allh has bestwoed upon mankind is the sending of the Messenger(saw). Those who are obedient to the Messenger(saw) are showered with the Mercy and Compassion of Allah. Those who are disobedient, then for them is the punishment of Allah. Remember what happened to the disbelievers at the time of Noah(as). And remember what happened to your fore-father Abu Lahab. And the Hellfire awaits the dibelievers. Allah created these people and has provided sustenance for them, but they have rejected his commands. And they will remain in the hellfire for eternity. Here's the proof for it. "And for the disbelievers there is painful torment." (2:104)
Yes, this is our belief. You don't like it? try and save them.
So the unbeliever was left dumbfounded, his argument was overthrown, silenced, struck dumb and falsehood was rendered futile as is always the case.
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited July 19, 2000).]
Muzna,
So nice of you to come join the party! I hope married life & english life is being good to you.
The amount of mileage I 've gotten from this simple arguement: If you say Allah is Rahman & Rahim then you should be able to relate the qualities of Allah's name to the real-life practise of your faith; Simple, isn't it? If you can't then there is seriously wrong with 'your version' of Islam. Maybe, it's the interpretations; maybe it's the sharia'h laws; maybe, it's something else, altogether!
So, next time you say: bismillah hir rahman ir rahim, stop & ponder - how many examples of rahman & rahim can I count?
Like they say across the pond,
Cheers!
Salafi,
Thanks for calling me Logical; I always wanted to be like that punk!
The point is: I congratulate you on your attempt, but it's late in the day and your posts are not relative anymore! I wish you good luck!
Your munafiq/kafir/etc,
faceup or is it Logical!
Faceup,
Killing someone is forbidden in almost every civilized country in this world, but still some people do kill others. Does this mean that LAW applied in the country, there is something wrong with it?or is it the murderer who does not care about what LAW says? According to your speeches i read so far, i think you will consider the LAW on fault??
Does it matter what shari'ah law says, because people with your kind of mentality will never follow it anyways.For people like you
".....it is all the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them: they are not going to believe. Allah has sealed up their hearts and their ears and covering has fallen over their eyes,............"
SURAH "AL-BAQARAH" 6-7
AND
".........HE gives them rope enough and they wander on and on blindly in their mischief and rebellion.........."
8-20
Dear brother, it is so obvious that you are repeating the questions ,already answered by more than one person.I'm afraid that you weren't lucky enough because Allah did not bestow a brain, large enough to state some valid points. By repeating same questions, which have already answered, all you prove about your personality is that YOUR BRAIN IS SO TINY that you can't even remember which questions you got the answers for!and you shouldn't ask them again!
I didn't mean to be rude, But your pointless speeches reflecting you moving in circles and making no sense what so ever! forced me to participate once again in this thread.
I wish and pray, Khuda aapki Akal shareef mai Izafa karai, aur achai burai, sahi galt ki pechaan karnai ki tofeeq ata farmai! AMEEN!
your caring sister in Islam,
Masooma
Masooma,
Trying to use psychology, are you? Those verses mean nothing if cannot be related with good intentions & thoughts.
What was that you said in another thread, when asked, similarly, to provide examples of compassion & tolerance in the Sharia'h laws that you were projecting to sound like the Sweedish welfare state; you said:
NOBODY IS FOLLOWING TRUE ISLAM. WHAT WAS BEING DESCRIBING EXISTED IN PROPHET'S TIME!
So, since the Prophet's time everybody has deviated and resorted to worshipping Iblees!
Can you explain:
1) how many Ayatollahs in Iran have been executed for speaking up against Khomeni?
2)How many Iranians have been executed for converting to Bahai faith from shia-ism? Similarly, how many Bahais have been executed for their beliefs.
3)How many women have been stoned to death under the reformist regime of Khatami?
You see, the Ayatollahs also cite long verses extolling Allah's compassion & tolerance but in practise it's quite the reverse.
ACEUP/LOGICAL,
ARE YOU ACCUSING ISLAMIC TEACHINGS FOR THE ACTIONS OF SOME PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIMS?And whats with that Ayatollah business, kindly explain what is your point? What wrong did he do which made you such a hater of Shari’ah law?
Now lets talk about Allah being Rahman and Rahim.
Rahim signifies that the Mercy of Allah on the DAY OF JUDGEMENT will surround the true believers only, and that unbelievers and hypocrites will be left out.
It is apparent that both of these names signify a distinct aspect of God’s Mercy. His Mercy in this world, as signified by ‘Rahman’ is general, and the one in the life-hereafter, as signified by ‘Rahim’ is special. It will be of interest to note that the word ‘Rahman’ cannot be used except for Allah, while ‘Rahim’ can be used for others also.That is why 'Rahman is a reserved name which denotes unreserved Mercy, and Rahim is an unreserved name which denotes Reserved Mercy."
Dear Logical, or faceup or whoever you are, why are you ACUSSING Islamic teachings for the disorder and cruelty in the world.Because what Quran teaches is:
“…nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brothers? But you abhor it…” Holy Quran(49:12)
“And whoever commits a fault or a sin and throws it on one innocent, he indeed, takes upon himself the burden of a calumny and a manifest sin” Holy Quran(4:1)
“Allah does not like the public utterance of hurtful speech except by one who has been wronged…” Holy Quran(4:148)
Don’t these verses reflect how merciful Allah is? Well i’m afraid only people who have been shown the light of Islam can understand how Merciful and Compassionate Allah is.
Allah also says:
“…and argue with them in the best of manner…” Holy Quran(16:125)
“Kind word and pardon are better than charity followed by injury…” Holy Quran(2:263)
“O you who believe render not your charities worthless by reproach and injury…” Holy Quran(2:264)
The Messenger of Allah is quoted to have said:
“Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, should be kind to his neighbor; whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should honor his guest and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should speak good, or else keep silent”. “The faithful are, in their mutual love, mercy and sentiment, like the body, of which if any organ aches the whole body becomes restless and sick”.
Faceup, you have no right what so ever, to accuse Islamic teachings for what is going on around the world. Another thing is, why your just looking at Muslim countires?What about non-muslim countires?Will you consider God responsible for the disorder?(NA-AZUBILLAH)
He gave a free will and the right to choose path.
Allah, the Most High, declares:
“Allah does not charge a soul save to His ability…” Holy Quran (2:286)
“…and your Lord shall not wrong anyone.” Holy Quran(18:49)
Quran is a source of guidence for everyone, BUT if people do not apply what is written in Quran depending on situation, it doesn’t grant you right to accuse Islamic teaching for what people are doing.
Faceup, you are trying so hard to convince us muslims, that there is something wrong with the relegious teachings, but why do you not point out that their is something wrong with the mental ability of people who are applying the teachings?And why are you just pointing out the muslim leaders, such as Ayatollah? Please kindly explain, what wrong do you think he did, beside making women cover their head,and punishing the people who deserve a harsh punishment. When Ayatollah took over Iran, that so called Muslim country was totaly westernized, prostitution, getting high and such un-sophisticated behaviour was a common thing. What he did was, introduce Islamic cultural values to those muslims. If you think, by FORCING them to surrender for a better life, and to live a sophisticated life, he was being UNMERCIFUL AND CRUEL, i do not agree with you. He didn’t bring any harm to the society in IRAN.
You will accuse Ayatollah being unmerciful because he did not free american hostages?But why won’t you accuse non-muslim army killing inocent muslims only because THEY HATE MUSLIMS?(you know i’m talking about Kashmir)
In Conclusion, my point is, STOP ACCUSING ISLAMIC TEACHINGS FOR WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING!STOP saying that Islamic teachings don’t reflect kindness towards our fellow human beings, whether they are muslims or not, but yea one thing is clear, WE WON’T HARM NON-MUSLIM BUT IF THEY TRY TO HURT MUSLIMS IN ANYWAY, THERE IS NO REASON WHY WE SHOULDN’T ANSWER THEM BACK.
And as an agent of OSAMA BIN LADIN said as he was interviewd by a CNN official:
“If someone comes up to me and slaps me on my face, i will punch him back and break his teeth”
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/wink.gif
I know, you will still come up with same old stinky, senseless questions but hey, actually this whole article wasn’t for you to read (because i know this will not sound “LOGICAL” to you) but for the people who have the ability to understand, and who don’t repeat questions already being answered several times.
Masooma
Dear Guppos,
First thing First! Let's be clear, I am not criticizing Quran or the Prophet (s), I am, most definitely, criticizing the way Quran has been abused by muslims and, the Shariah laws are the biggest example of that abuse! Now, back to the discussion.
Masooma,
This the same message you posted in the other thread. Never mind!
1) Re: Khomeni - He was a mullah, a power usurper who give himself absolute power.
His contributions:
(i) He took away almost all rights that the previous secular Govt had given to the women.
(ii) He sent 1 million people to their death in a fratricidal war that achieved nothing.
(iii) Iranian economy & living standards are worse off under the Islamists.
(iv) Religious freedom, freedom to ctiticize doesn't exist.
(v) Discrimination & attrocities against non-muslims were barbaric under Khomeni.
(vi) Last & not the least, he contributed to worsening relations with sunni islam by his acidic writings & fiery speeches.
2) On other matters, give up, don't waste your time debating on matters that is a dead end for Orthodox Islam.
I am not sure why you keep glorifying verses from Quran when you know I am looking for proof that the teachings of the Quran are actually practised in real-life. Get it, show me where the beef is?
If you cannot then just repeat what you said in our previous encounter that the problem is :NOBODY IS PRACTISING TRUE ISLAM and THE TRUE ISLAM EXISTED ONLY DURING PROPHET'S TIME!
3) No sense in getting emotional with the following:
"STOP ACCUSING ISLAMIC TEACHINGS FOR WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING!STOP saying that Islamic teachings don't reflect kindness towards our fellow human beings.."
Who is accusing! I am stating facts that Islamic laws are INCAPABLE of kindness towards fellow beings. This has been further CONFIRMED here by lack of real life substantiation of it from you or salafi or shaheen or anybody else for that matter.!
4) BRAVO for the following statement and proves what exists at the centre of Islamic teachings today. It takes the cake:
"yea one thing is clear, WE WON'T HARM NON-MUSLIM BUT IF THEY TRY TO HURT MUSLIMS IN ANYWAY, THERE IS NO REASON WHY WE SHOULDN'T ANSWER THEM BACK.
And as an agent of OSAMA BIN LADIN said as he was interviewd by a CNN official:
'If someone comes up to me and slaps me on my face, i will punch him back and break his teeth' "
Yea, way to go! Talk about violence & killing and, people like you can really start to quote real life examples of violence against others. Switch over to topics of Compassion and the conversation turns to name calling. That speaks a lot!
5) Talk about the extent of hypocrisy:
"Don't address him as a follower of any sect of Islam, ....if you use Names of Islamic sec to show your disagreement, this reflects DISORDER among muslim ummah."
There is order in muslim ummah! When was there order in muslim ummah? Even when the prophet (s) lay dying, muslims were plotting and stabbing the other in the back!
You want UNITY in the muslim Ummah, then deal with the issues of absolute lack of compassion & tolerance in teachings & laws. Once there is tolerance, unity & respect will follow.
Salam all,
Bahi Faceup, I am sorry to say, baat samajh nahin aarahi kuch… aap kahna kya chah rahay ho… if you will stay on one theme we would all like to share our views… this seems to be very bizarre to me… anyways. excuse moi
As for the topic I am not sure what Salaheddin Mohsen means to sell. On the other hand people who make fun of divine religions are not new to this world; they were present since time immemorial… being unable to understand the actual theme of the religion, they put charges against Divine reformers and their teachings, strikingly similar, that it seems they leave it as a legacy to their successors to go on repeating those accusations. Allah says… Is this the legacy they have transmitted, one to another? Nay, they are themselves a people transgressing beyond bounds! [51:54] … so you will never miss these people, they are universally present.
Regarding the issue of implication of Islamic laws, I don’t think its possible at least in Pakistan… which is the only country of the world, tailored on the basis of Islamic fundamentalism. Still in the light of 1400 old shariah, they are unable to implicate it. Every other day there hold conferences on how to bring in such laws… Is that not hypocrisy? Well other Muslim countries are more or less the same. To some extent, my ideology matches yours, as I believe that every religion at its source is pure and unspoiled, it’s the later followers who distort and deorate them according to their needs, egotism and leadership. This is what exactly happed with all the religions. And this is what exactly we see in Islam, shattered into so many pieces… Everyone claiming that he belongs to the path of the righteous, but don’t have the courage to ask Allah regarding their reliability.
Regarding the ethical issues; I observe both of you guys (salafi and you) are saying the same think, but imposing the deteriorated side of Islam on each other. While Masooma is trying to patch up the work, in sensible way. Well such ailments is not because of one or the other,… it’s a time dependent dust that is encrusted upon Muslims over the past 1400 years… so no need to blame anyone…
Let me give you a broad aspect of today’s Islam fatal condition and the reason behind it.
Some 4000 years ago, a man named Mosses under the commandment of Allah laid the foundation of Hebrew nation…. After Him, Allah being Rahman and Rahim, continued to send his pious men towards them to keep them on the right path…. Despite all that, they distorted and mingled their teaching with the materialistic bits and pieces… (precisely like Muslims) again Allah blessed them with His Rahmaniyat and Rahimiyat… around 1300 later, a REMEDY was sent to that morally-ill nation… a MASSIAH was raised among them as a healer… unfortunately they rejected Him and persecuted Him along His followers…. Alas! He was considered dead with a death of ‘great disgrace’…. (as they were and are still waiting for someone else to descend). In short major part of that nation remained untreated…
Exactly the same scenario was repeated…. An illiterate man in the hot deserts of Arabia raised his voice that He(saw) was appointed by Allah for the whole mankind…. As a sunnah of prophets… many rejected him… very few accept him… A great wave of persecution aroused… Allah supported Him(saw)… soon an ummah is formed… from east to west, north to south, His name spread like jungle fire… for about three hundred years… this ummah did their best to protect and progress their faith… after that gradually a night of thousand years came over them…. And they lost all their prestige and honor… Exactly the same situation was repeated… Allah sent a REMEDY to cure this morally-ill followers of His most precious Creation(saw). … a MASSIAH was raised among them as a healer… Alas! He was rejected, persecuted and when he died… they considered that He died a death of disgrace… (as they were and are still waiting for someone else to descend)
There is no excuse for such anguish… All these turmoil, all this state of chaos, all these maladies which we observe among His(saw) ummah is the fruit of their there own planted seeds. I observe they have feeling of helplessness… a felling of emptiness… a thirst for someone who can save them…. Sadly they don’t want to be revived… Actually this is the promise of Allah that one day this nation will resemble the Hebrew nation, but only those who thrive to seek His ways will be protected.
Your argument about “Muslims being Iblis followers” is quite valid and logical…. But face-up you are saying the same thing in a quite impolite way… ~> accusing Islam, instead of accusing its followers …
Yes Muslims! Today Islam is very poor, it needs you… Instead of nurturing hatred in your blood… try to scrutinize your beliefs and save your coming generations, Save Islam, ‘cause this is your sole lifeline… Look at your Moral and Ethical conditions… its like a ‘body without soul’… Look you are facing misery at every nook and corner of the world. Sad to see such an example of peace and equality. Wake up now and feed your starving souls.
Remember the promise of Allah; *“wal lazeena jahadu fena la nahde yanna hum subulana wa in nal’laha lama’al mohsayneen… And as for those who strive to meet US - WE will, surely, guide them in OUR ways. And, verily, ALLAH is with those who do good.” *
PS1: Faceup, is this what you are looking for? I know it’s a very deep topic.. will continue, inshallah…
PS2: Masooma sis, you owe me a reply. acha ummmm Ok forget it.. khush raho.
Wa’salam
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited July 11, 2000).]
Asalam-u-ALikum
Zalimmmmmmm bhaaiiiiii…sorry haaan about not replying, the truth is, i didn’t read that thread after my last reply, because it was going no where, hmmm forget it!
and as for Faceup, bhai sahib, you are still moving in circles!about Ayatollah, dear faceup, all i can say is, Allah aapko akal dai!
And that statement given by an agent of OSAMA BIN LADIN, what he is talking about is Justice!! NOT violence!! if someone hits you, you have complete right to hit the person back!This is NOT violence my dear brother, this is Justice!!
And before making “SHARI’AH LAW” perfect, try to give justice to the family of a young Pakistani boy, got shot in bronx yesterday, by three black guys, only because they wanted to test if the gun works.NOW THIS IS WHAT I CALL VIOLENCE!
We both have very different philosophy about violence, isn’t it?
Masooma
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smile.gif
P.S YEA I KNOW THERE IS NO UNITY AMONG MUSLIM UMMAH, BUT ATLEAST I HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPRESS WHAT I WANT ON THIS FORUM, AND THATS WHAT I DID. YOU DON’T HAVE TO DISHEART ME BY TELLING ME WHATS GOING ON BETWEEN MUSLIM SECT, AS I ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT.Thanx anyways.
Zalim,
1) You say:
"Your argument about “Muslims being Iblis followers” is quite valid and logical…. But face-up you are saying the same thing in a quite impolite way… accusing Islam, instead of accusing its followers … "
Here's my response, posted previously:
"First thing First! Let's be clear, I am not criticizing Quran or the Prophet (s), I am, most definitely, criticizing the way Quran has been abused by muslims and, the Shariah laws are the biggest example of that abuse! "
2) You say:
"Yes Muslims!Instead of nurturing hatred in your blood… try to scrutinize your beliefs and save your coming generations, Save Islam, ‘cause this is your sole lifeline… Look at your Moral and Ethical conditions… its like a ‘body without soul’… "
Zalim,
What I am saying is not different than your message.
We extol: Allah is Rahman & Rahim but in real life our actions are quite the reverse; our actions, in no way, imbibe the virtues of Rahman & Rahim (compassion & mercy). That is why I keep asking to provide me with real life examples to prove that you are, indeed, following the true teachings of Islam which are based on Rahman & Rahim.
If you cannot provide real-life examples that exude compassion & mercy then something is seriously wrong with you as a follower of Islam.
My message is very Direct: Islam is a religion of peace, compassion & tolerance. If, in real life, we are not obvious or practising the tenets of peace, tolerance & compassion, then we are not following the message of Islam or worshipping Allah.
Pls let me know where I am be confusing or being impolite.
...face up,
Most of your arguement is correct...there are muslims that WORSHIP Allah, but FOLLOW the ways of Iblis...
Your attempt on slinging mud on QURAN, and the PROPHET, and ALLAH is a mixture of intelligance, and ignorance...You start with insulting all of the above, then you insult everyone that posts their point of view...then you say you don't mean it in that way...
[This message has been edited by Admin (edited July 19, 2000).]
Tuba Tuba
How can one even suggest this!!!!!!
Book of ignorance ! Tuba tuba
It is true when it says in the quran that
unbelivers hearts are sealed and they are deaf and dumb.
Give mushraf a chance!
BlaDaMunda007, Pakistani, etc
If you say: " Most of your arguement is correct.....is a mixture of intelligance, and ignorance..."
Then you charge me with:"Your attempt on slinging mud on QURAN, and the PROPHET, and ALLAH"
First: I made it clear that Quran is a book of guidance and hope BUT has been made into a book of ignorance by the muslims. How? By linking the Quran with the Sunnah! The Sunnah is a guide & reference but should not be used to mean the Quran or in cases even superior than the Quran.
In other words Sunnah has been made the interpretations of the Quran and, Shariat is based 100% on the Sunnah! Is something wrong with that? The problem is the Sunnah reflects the 7th century and if you make everything EQUAL to the 7th
century , then we re-live the 7th century with its barbaric customs & rites.
Pls also REVIEW my comments in the thread; THE STATUS OF SUNNAH. Love to hear your opinions.
...No Offense Mr.Faceup ...you remind me of Iblis... knowledgeable yet ignorant, and stubborn...(don't take it personal)
A lot of time Faceup/Logical has asked the question of quoting examples of Allah's mercy in real life. Lets start from the basics:
Light
Water
Health
Oxygen
Can once imagine life without any of the above?. The thing that Quran emphasis most about is that there are millions of bounties like fruits, foods, juices and so on that Allah has bestowed upon man and yet he refuses to even believe in the existence of God.
The mercy He put in the hearts of our parents when we were young and helpless, the love that he put between our kin and kith to make life bearable and a thousand other blessings.
He gave us the intelligence of making life better for ourselves and designated us as his Khalifa (governor) on Earth.
How do we repay him:
Shirk (make others part of His greatness)
We refuse to believe in him
We follow man made rules and abandon his rules
We defy his commands by lying, cheating and fighting
YET!!!!!
He still forgives us and lets us enjoy the air we breath, the food we eat and the body that our soul occupies regardless of us being belkievers or non-believers. Can anyone of us divert a calamity that befalls us? Can we dodge fate? No, so lets thank Him for all that He has bestowed upon us.
I dont know if you (Faceup) are a muslim or a non-muslim but please follow the essence of the religion before claiming that Shariah is Iblees or whatever.
Time and again you have stated that you are not against Islam but the way it is practiced. So if Islam is right then what is your argument and if you feel it is right then what is wrong in following that which is right? If you feel it is right then follow it otherwise say that it is wrong and abandon it. Allah is "ALLAH hus Samad" (Does not need help). Allah will not gain anything if you are to remain what you are and venomize against Islam. It is far bigger than you and me and it will survive with or without your arguments. However if you are to accept Islam then only you will be the gainer (this is another bounty and mercy of Allah)
Think about it my friend
Rational
First - you are responding to faceup not logical. I suggest you keep the names straight.
Second - the ability to think & reason is what sets humans apart from lower beings. I did NOT ask for examples of Allah's mercy in real life! I had asked for real life examples of compassion & tolerance in your practise of Islam. I had asked fellow muslims to Cite examples of Allah’s Rahman, Rahim and Peace in the way you practise 'your Islam' whatever that might be, towards muslims & non-muslims. Are you clear on what I was asking?
The chances are - if you 're a follower of Sunnah then you cannot or are unable to comply as above. I suggest you read the thread:The STATUS OF SUNNAH IN ISLAM.
The sunnah or life & sayings of prophet(s) reflects 7th century. Why would a person able to reason & think want to emulate 7th century sunnah in the 21st century? Not only that, but make sunnah EQUAL to quran or in certain cases superior to it. The Shariat likewise is based upon sunnah that reflects 7th century ; ergo, the shariat reflects 7th century and “your Islam” reflects 7th century with its abuse of women & minorities and interactions with non-muslims like you had in the other thread: Muslims INTERMARRYING Hindus. Your statement therein are inappropriate and an insult to Islam. This is how you all have chosen to repay Allah.
Your quote: “Shirk (make others part of His greatness)”. Could you kindly elaborate what you state here. I would love for you to entertain me with your explanation of “shirk”. I am sure it will reflect equal lack of reason.
Just like there are followers of Sunnah even though the Prophet (s) clearly commanded otherwise; there are also people who denounce sunnah as examples of massive FABRICATIONS & lies. I strongly recommend that you read the thread:THE STATUS OF SUNNAH..... These people reject sunnah and direct people to follow Quran - the words of Allah with all the answers. However, the same people realize that without “Religious Authority” the Quran is a book of parables unintelligible to most. Is it any wonder that the Egyptian in the main/cover post called Quran - a book of holy ignorance!
Your quote again: “Time and again you have stated that you are not against Islam but the way it is practiced. So if Islam is right then what is your argument and if you feel it is right then what is wrong in following that which is right? However if you are to accept Islam then only you will be the gainer (this is another bounty and mercy of Allah)”
My advise to you is not to preach ‘your Islam’ to others. Based on what has already been described about "your Islam" , not only on this board but also by world's leading authorities; it would be best that you refrain from further harm to Islam.
Allah’s bounty that you flaunt has been denied the muslim ummah. The deviant worshippers of Iblees cannot claim Allah’s bounty. Check out the muslim’s pathetic state of affairs. The muslims today are the lowest of the low. Hell is for you in this world and the here-after!
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited July 19, 2000).]
Interesting faceup. I wonder what you really stand for? Why don't you explain YOUR VERSION of Islam, as all I see you do is bicker about what the rest of the muslims are doing.
Again a delusion that you suffer from is about applying the Sunnah of 7th century in the 21st century, which according to you is obsolete. On the contrary, not much has changed as far as human habits are concerned. Are you even aware of what Sunnah is? Teachings of the prophet (PBUH). Now what did he teach? The way of life covering all aspects of society like:
Social behavior
Personal behavior
Aspects of war and peace
Rights and duties of a muslim
Treatment of non-muslims
Trade and commerce
and so on
All can still be applied without any problem whatsoever. If there are any problems then why dont you put them on the table and I am more than willing to answer any queries that you might have.
Another very big weapon which he gave to the Ummah is "IJTEHAD". Do you know what that is? It is application of islamic rules as seen by the islamic scholars fit to implement in instances where there is no clear ruling in the Quran or the Sunnah, or in cases where ground reality has changed from the 7th century. A very simple case is the timing of namaz. During the prophet's(PBUH) time muslims will look at the length of their shadow to see if it was time for Maghrib or Asr etc. Now of course there are all kinds of calculators that can compute the timings to the minute. Have you seen anyone looking at their shadows now to pray? That is not abandoning Sunnah but using Ijtehad and following the spirit of Islam even after 14 centuries. Please dont venture your ill concieved and ignorant opinions without knowing the truth about what you are saying.
Also you seem to have found the formula for the true path of Islam, so why dont you enlighten us as I am sure it will be a favor to all of us who read these mails. We all need to know about Islam and unlike you I have a broader mind and will welcome any opinions that make sense and comply to the teachings of the greatest religion on Earth.
As far as Shirk is concerned I cannot be any more clearer on what I stated earlier. If you have a mental handicap then I can only feel sorry for you.
One sincere piece of advice. If you really want ot argue then do it with an open mind, cede to what you feel I am right about and I will cede to what I think is right coming from you. If you just want to argue for argument sake then we are both wasting each other's time.
Take care faceup
Rational,
Is Islam today confined to 7th century or not?
It is!
In both thoughts & deeds, because of Orthodox Islam refussal to de-link from the 7th century Sunah. Lest you forget this link that you'll have made is for all eternity or, you'll be stuck in the 7th century for all eternity.
Re: Ijthehad, I am a strong supporter of independent Ijthehad. Can you tell me when was the last time 'independent Ijthehad' took place? Note: This is a question for you.
Rational,
Here are other quotes of yours worth examining:
1) "Please dont venture your ill concieved and ignorant opinions without knowing the truth"
2)"I have a broader mind and will welcome any opinions that make sense and comply to the teachings of the greatest religion on Earth."
3) "As far as Shirk is concerned I cannot be any more clearer on what I stated earlier. If you have a mental handicap then I can only feel sorry for you."
Did the readers examine the 3 quotes. Then Rational makes the following:
"If you really want ot argue then do it with an open mind, cede to what you feel I am right about"
Rational,
I'll again ask you to explain your statement re: Shirk.
Re: Islam being the greatest religion on earth! Really? Based on what do you make this statement. Are followers of Sunnah the greatest manifestation of Islam?
Finally, your last post really was useless other than calling me 'names' and heaping 'self-applause' on yourself & what-ever you follow.
There is no such thing as an independent Ijtehad. That would mean 3 billion versions of Islam as each person will do "his own thing". Very smart.
Now why don't you tell us all what you believe in? You seem to know all the answers and think we are all wrong. So on behalf of all the readers please enlighten us on what your beliefs are?
So far the only things we know about you are:
- You think(claim) Quran is the right book
- Believe in independent Ijtehad
- Have unclear undurstanding on the concept of shirk.
The GLOBAL ISLAMIC (not independent ijtehadi) concept of SHAHADAH is to firmly believe in "THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD (ALLAH) AND MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IS THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH". Any deviation or doubt of eny kind from this simple statement constitutes SHIRK.
We are all living in the 21st century and I have no problems following the 7th century Sunnah while adapting to the lifestyle, technologies and innovations made available to me by the grace of Almighty. So please don't refute that Sunnah is obsolete. As painful as it is for you to fathom but believe me that there are millions of good practicing muslims living happily by following the Sunnah and Quran. Your earlier statement of hell for muslims in this life and the hereafter is kinda immature as we are REALLY ENJOYING OURSELVES HERE. It hurts you does'nt it to see us happy my friend :)
well keep being jealous and hateful as it will only make you suffer more.
Take care
Rational,
I asked you when was the last time there was Independent Ijthehad? Instead you give a response that "with independent Ijthehad there would be 3 billion version of Islam." Really?
Since Islamic schools do not provide broad Islamic education and thus we have people like you saying things without proper understanding.
1) Were there always 4 sunni taqlids (shaefi,hanafi, hanbali, maliki)? If not, what do you think happened to the others?
2) If 4 sunni Taqlids are the limits in Sunni-ism, or, sunnis have been instructed to follow 1 of the 4 taqlids in its entirety; then wahabi, deobandi, etc are illegal taqlids. Wouldn't you agree?
You claimed that Islam is the greatest religion on earth. I asked you to provide the basis of your statement. You, who cannot give examples of compassion & tolerance in the practise of "your Islam" but yet claim it to be the greatest religion. Is this something you heard on the Jumma khutba?
A few posts back you made a vague statement about shirk and partner with Allah. I asked you to clarify; was there something wrong in this request to you? This is how you finally respond; your quote:
"Have unclear undurstanding on the concept of shirk." The GLOBAL ISLAMIC (not independent ijtehadi) concept of SHAHADAH is to firmly believe in "THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD (ALLAH) AND MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IS THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH". Any deviation or doubt of eny kind from this simple statement constitutes SHIRK."
Let's see the magnitude of your ignorance:
1) Since you have made Sunnah of the 7th century to be the meaning of the Quran and based shariat on sunnah; then how can there ever be Ijthehad on the Sunnah? Are you going to revise the sunnahs; Fabricate the fabrications in the spirit of Ijthehad?
2)Your concept of Shirk:"THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD (ALLAH) AND MUHAMMAD (PBUH) IS THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH". Any deviation or doubt of eny kind from this simple statement constitutes SHIRK."
This makes the Shahadah a shirk, according to your logic!
How?
In the Kalema we say - "There is no God" but then we also say or ADD - "Muhammad is the last Prophet of Allah." Actually, it is Muhammad is the Prophet/Messenger of Allah; but I'll allow your insertion of the word "last".
1) The shahadah makes Prophet Muhammad(saw) a Partner of Allah, according to your logic.
2) Then following Sunnah makes it Shirk as well; because, you're following Sunnah of the prophet and NOT Quran of Allah!
Finally, there is nothing in "your version of Islam" that makes me jealous as you say or imply. You are back to heaping self-applause on yourself again?