Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

What a beautiful place it was…KARACHIIIIIII we miss you:teary1:

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Well, some people living in their dreams of self-righteousness find all truth a joke, even killing those with whom they do not agree or those whose interpretation of Islam is different than theirs.

So, what can one do? ... stop mentioning truth and cry? :)

[Whatever I wrote, I stand by that and believe that whatever PPP site mentioned, that is true too]

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

First, it is jamia binori town and not binoria. They are 2 different madressas.

عالم اسلام کی معروف دینی درسگاہ | جامعہ علوم اسلامیہ](http://www.banuri.edu.pk/)

Binoria University International | Madrasa Jamia Binoria

He was against fata operation and pakistani agencies were after him for that.Let me locate that fatwa for you.
https://www.box.com/s/93l0ngi0854lrmlus9xk

The shia link that saleem has posted is just nonesense, i need to know writings of current deobandis that give any evidence that they are nasibis. the aqeedah about ibn khaldun is a deobandi aqeedah that he was just historian and we take things from him with caution. lame attempt to mix filth with truth in this article.

as far as moulana hassan jan is concerned, i think it is the work of agencies who wanted to kill him for his strong stance against these operations.

The thread is just a showcase for the brainwashing media has done, people here are trying to justify killing of scholars(see saleem or shamraz posts).

This happens when you have internal hatred for islam and try to wrap this hatred in sugar coated statements.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Start with moulana ahmed raza khan barelvi, i can show you tons of fatwa that are just identical to deobandi stance on shias. This shows how the writer was deliberatly trying to misguide people, and that is the plan, uniting barelvi and shia against deobandis.

It is binori town and not binoria :)

and deobandis dont get support from saudia, salfis may get some. and shias get support from iran.

All the rest is false with no support. The writer do not know the differences amongst the groups and do nott even know the corect names of the groups and missed all shia terrorist organisations that is creating fitna in pakistan alongwith terrorist organisation in deobandis LeJ.

Shame on you to justify killing like that, May ALLAH show you the haq.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

there should be no difference amongst sipah e mhammad and Lej. People just highlight one side and do not show complete picture.

i agree with you on that ali.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Nothing, I mean nothing justifies killing of any human without due process.

I cannot believe there are people here who directly or indirectly favor killing of any person/target assassination.

Even in one post Saleem said these people do not deserve to live....something like that.

What happened to civil acts and humanity?

If for any reason someone hates for these fake or real scholars, then supporting their killing and murder means there is no difference in terrorists and those who support target killing of anyone.

Remember, claiming to be civilized carries some responsibility.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Thanks for correcting me regarding the Madrassah (Madrassah Binooria and Binoori Town mess me up). I will still give him benefit of doubt regarding TTP as they didnt exist at that time, and there was no terrorism at the scale of what we have witnessed after 2007. Who ever is responsible for murder needs to be punished. As far as the fatwa is concerned I’ll go through that and respond accordingly after some time.

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And this is about shahdats of just one madressa, there are other madaris like farooqia,ahsan ul ullom , jamia tru rasheed that had thier share of shuhada

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Saleem, If its simply Deobandis out there killing Shias and Barelvis then who is killing Deobandis?

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Post 28 States the following:

" State of Pakistan does not 'impose' any religion. And not any sect for sure.

People are free to 'practice' any religion/sect. It only makes sure that some people do not act as imposters since it says in the law. No forced conversion to any religion or sect is sanctioned in the law.".

What does " makes sure some people do not act as IMPOSTERS" mean? Are there any imposters currently? Never heard of this description with respect to any religion. Who are the imposters this law addresses?

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

I love these debates especially people on right crying about being killed when they are the one who promote sectarianism and terrorism in the name of religion. What is even more interesting is the the fact everyone is ignoring the giant elephant in the room that is reason for most of violence/killings in the county, ie the religion itself. And overtime governments meddling and promoting jihadi terrorists have made things worse. So, until we recognize this problem and separate religion from state/government things will only get worse.

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Its 2 way street. When the so called "ulmas" come out against terrorism and killings in the name of Islam you'll have point.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Attempts to make a common Islam acceptable to all the muslims in Pakistan have totally failed. We have to accept the fact that there are followers of different religions with a common name Islam in Pakistan. The interpretations of the scriptures are totally different from one group to another. We must work only on the agenda that how these different groups can coexist in this country without state trying to impose on interpretation as the state version of Islam. The basic role of the state has to be defined clearly.. state should not indulge in moral evaluation of the individuals in religious sense. State must confine it's domain to check only the criminal behavior of individuals. State has no business of determining who is a good muslim and who is a bad muslim.. and the privileges only a good muslim in the eyes of state can enjoy..

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

^^^ We had long discussion on this very topic while back.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/518957-what-is-your-argument-against-secularism.html

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

What is the reason of so many ulemas being killed in Karachi? Its not the same in the rest of Pakistan.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

This fatwa discusses four aspects of the war imposed on South Waziristan:

  1. Is Pakistan Army justified in attacking, arresting and killing people in Waziristan?

The fatwa says that the army is not justified in carrying out operations in Wazirstan (FATA), and that its not allowed to arrest and kill muslims to please the kuffar.

Even if we discard the fatwa for a minute as most Pakistanis have not read it, and see the feelings of the people. Most of them have always opposed these operations, drone attacks and the alliance of Pakistani government with the Americans. The fatwa talks about one dimension, that is the army cannot kill ‘muslims’. What about the other side, are they allowed to kill people to fulfill their political aims? All those ahadith and ayaats that are applicable on Pakistani army applies on those who were attacked (TTP).

  1. According to the fatwa, since attacking muslims is haram therefore the army should disobey and not carry out attacks against their brethren. Again this applies on TTP as well, if the army is not permitted to kill muslims, TTP is also not allowed for doing the same.

  2. Since the attack on muslims is against shariah, hence the soldiers killed will be kafirs and no one should attend their namaz e janaza. Does this also apply on the TTP commanders who order attacks on public places, markets and mosques?

  3. And those people who will be killed by the army are innocents and would be martyrs. I’ll not dispute that, but the ones killed by TTP are also martyrs.

I’ll add a few things here. When the war began in FATA an overwhelming population was against it and for a very long time there was a confusion in the minds of people that muslims are killing muslims here so who is on the right path. The soldiers were on the defensive as the people considered them to be the aggressors and the tribals to be the aggrieved. I have read in the newspaper that a soldier was killed in FATA, when his dead body was brought for burial (in Mandi Bahauddin) his father threw his shoes on the soldiers who had brought him there saying that his son was a kafir as he was killing muslims.

Come 2007, and the TTP started attacking viciously in markets, religious places and killing indiscriminately. This was the time when people started questioning themselves, as the difference between the ‘aggressor’ and ‘innocent’ disappeared. Indiscriminate killings have an impact and that usually results in hatred towards the party carrying those attacks.

Here I am talking about targeting and killing muslims, where as Quran forbids killing any innocent person (regardless of his religion):

If anyone slew a person unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole humanity.” (Al-Qur’an 5:32)

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Diwana: I was talking about Takfeerie outfits and preachers who do Takfeeri (not Deobandis or anyone following Deobandi sect peacefully). As for Takfeeries, there is no doubt that they are creating fitna and in Quran it is order of Allah to kill people who create fitna. I have no concern about anyone’s interpretations of Islam but my concern is about people creating Fitna in the name of Islam.

Because of their fitna, innocent citizens of Pakistan are dying, jawans of Pakistan army are dying, suicide attacks and killings of innocent citizens have become norm in country, Markets and Mosques are getting bombed, life in Pakistan have become life of living in terror, people are migrating out of Pakistan to save themselves from these takfeeries, etc, etc, etc

Actually, other than Quran that says fitna-creator should be killed, there is hadith about a group that would appear during the end times who seemingly would be following Islam vigorously and strictly, still Islam would not enter them. They would create fitna in the name of Islam and would kill Muslims (obviously, they would kill those who would not agree with them in Islam), and about them Prophet (SAW) also said that they should be killed (I think it is mentioned in Mishkat).

You can find the hadith if you google for it. Anyhow, I am putting down the hadith that you can also use in search to look for hadith.

"A person with eyes protruding, with a long beard and head clean-shaven came to the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) and declared: 'O Muhammad! (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) fear Allah. "' The Prophet(Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) replied: "If I disobey Allah, then who else will obey Him? I am obedient to Allah at all times and never disobedient. Allah has sent me as Amin(Honest for the entire world, but you don't accept me as an honest man?' A Sahabi (Companion) became infuriated and sought permission to remove him from the presence of the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam). The Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) prevented the Sahabi from doing so After the person had left, the Holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) said: "From his progeny will rise a Group who will recite the Holy Quran but it will not go below their throats. They will leave the Deen just as an arrow leaves the bowstring. They will kill the Muslims but spare the idolaters. If I ever confronted these people I would slaughter them just as the people of Aad had been destroyed" (Mishkat Shareef, pp/535)

Now, you can see that these people would be a group who would follow someone from the progeny of the person mentioned, and these people would be killing Muslims what these takfeeries are doing. They would not kill idolators is obvious, as idolators are kuffar following their own religion and killing them is not allowed except in war, so they would not find justifications. On the other hand, these people would kill Muslims as they are doing, and for that they create excuse by doing takfeer.

[If you will go into detail and other related hadiths, you will find that the person mentioned was from Najd, same place from where Abdul Wahab was and had same tribe name ... could be coincidence but a very worrying coincidence]

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Bao Bihari … Please do not take things personally as whatever is happening is nothing personal. As for religious beliefs, we are all responsible of our own faith, and no one believe what they do not consider right regardless of what others might be thinking of someone else beliefs or thinking that other’s belief is wrong. None of us are Prophet or have direct contact from Allah to confirm what we think is right or wrong in black and white. No one would be there to save our soul on judgment day, except ourselves and our beliefs. We have what we learn, read or listen around, and thus all are looking for truth.

Anyhow I was just trying to avoid details, but since you asked and made big accusations on me, here are some details. Probably, others might also read and get all what I wrote confirmed. I myself would be obliged if corrected, as what I am writing is my own research (that I believe is correct). I am open in my beliefs and I am willing to correct myself if my information and beliefs are wrong.

Ahmed Raza Khan was a scholar who was following Sunni Islam [sect that Muslims are following since time of Prophet (SAW) and they practices all over Muslim world]. He got known as Barelvi, because he used to live and write from North Indian town ‘Bareilly’.

He was not originator of any sect or brought changes to Aqeedah of Sunni Islam (rather, he was defender of Sunni Islam). His fatwa (Opinion) or fatwa (opinion) of any scholars are not binding on anyone, as every Muslim would be responsible of their own Emaan and Aamaal on judgement day, and no one can take responsibility of others in this matter.

[My aqeedah is that, if a person says that he is Muslim, recite Kalma-e-Shahadah … then I take him as Muslim and do not judge that person in any other way. Exception is when a person starts doing takfeer on people who call themselves Muslims, as if he considers himself Allah (Nauzobillah) that he can know what is in the heart of one he is calling kafir, and that makes him Kafir regardless of his confession (as he also confessed with his takfeer that he can judge faith of someone contrary to confession, what is Prerogative of Allah alone). As far as I know, Kalma-e-Shahadah of Shia and Sunni are same … that is confirming and witnessing that ‘There is no God except Allah and Muhammad (SAW) is Messenger of Allah’.

Here is hadith to support my Aqeedah:
[COLOR=#b22222]Usama bin Zaid was sent in an expedition, he spoke about one man in the battlefield, he said:

“… I saw one of them, he said “laa ilaaha illallah”. I stabbed him, and after that I felt bad and so told Muhammad (saw) what I did. The Prophet (saw) asked: “did he say laa ilaha illallah, and you killed him?” I said: “He said it, but only out of fear for my sword.” He (saw) asked “did you check his heart to see if he believed it?” … **he kept on repeating that question until I wished that I was not Muslim yet until that day.” **[Muslim V-2 P-107]

Imam Nawawi repeated another narration where the prophet (saw) continued,

“(the Prophet (saw) said) …did you kill him?” I said: “yes” he said “what will you do about that laa ilaha illallah if it comes to you on the day of judgment?” I asked “ask forgiveness for me o Rasulullah.” and every time he saw me after that he (saw) would ask me “what will you do if laa ilaaha illallah comes to you on the day of judgment?”"

Usama bin Zaid was dispraised by Muhammad (saw) strongly because he judged someone’s intention i.e. what is inside his heart, though his APPARENT i.e. his sayings and actions was showing Islam.

Note: I could not find actual hadith in full to quote, but what I remember (story as I remember), in battle, one kafir warrior injured a Muslim badly. Later that Muslim with his partner chased that Kafir opponent. That kafir climbed a tree to save himself, and they started waiting underneath. In middle of this chase, Kafir from tree declared that he is now Muslims and recited Kalma.

Anyhow, when that person came down, these Muslim killed him and when Prophet (SAW) heard of that, he became angry and asked the Muslim that how can he kill that person who read Kalma … the reply was that, the person read kalma just to save his life, and then Prophet (SAW) said that, did you cut his heart open to check what you are claiming. And then Prophet (SAW) asked him that what he would do when his confession ‘la-e-laha-illlallah’ would come to you on judgment day?]

Anyhow: During Ahmed Raza Khan (RA) Saheb time, Deobandi sect started with establishment of Darul-uloom in Deoband (around 150 years ago). This sect is entirely an India event that got its inspiration from teaching of Abdul Wahab (Suadi Arabia … in around 1750 AD) who gets his inspiration from beliefs and writings of Ibn-Tamiya [around 1300 AD …. or over 650 years after the death of Prophet (SAW)].

The differences in beliefs between Deobandi Islam and Sunni Islam made Ahmed Raza Saheb counter their beliefs with his replies defending Sunni Islam.

Anyhow, since Deobandis also call themselves Sunnis, to differentiate Sunnis from Deobandis in Indian-subcontinent, Sunnis were given name Barelvi.

Now, let see the differences between Aqeedah of Shia, Sunni, and Deobandi (that is from my knowledge, discussions and understanding … and if you believe what I am writing is wrong, point that out).

Shia and Sunni beliefs regarding Allah: … Deoandi and Wahabis beliefs are different:

1: Allah is one who is not confined to any place, rather he is present at all places (he is one who has no ‘Muqam’), and that means, there is no place where Allah is not present.

Any other belief would make Allah smaller than space, and belief is that space cannot confine Allah, as Allah himself created space.

[Deobandi and Wahabi believe that Allah is confined to a chair in heaven]

2: Allah is what he was before he created anything … that means, stance of Allah do not changes due to him creating anything … and it also means Allah is not sitting, standing, walking, talking or moving, or doing anything that we can think of (as Allah is neither in need of these things nor is possible, as all such can only be done by creations and needs space, whereas Allah is beyond requirement of space).

[The belief of Deobandi (and wahabi) that Allah sitting down in a chair shows that his stance changed before and after creating of chair.]

3: Regarding ‘Astawa on Kursi’ Sunnis believe is that ‘Astawa on Kursi’ means ‘establishment on the throne of power’ and not literal sitting on a chair.

[Wahabi and Deobandi belief that Allah ‘literally sitting down on a chair’ is different from Sunni and Shia belief of ‘establishing on the throne of power’]

It is just like when we say that once elected as President, Zadari ‘established himself on Kursi’ of Pakistan, it does not means literally he is sitting on kursi rather it means ‘ chair of power’

etc … etc

Now come to Prophet (SAW) … Deobandis beliefs are different from Sunni and Shia (who have same beliefs):

1: Prophet (SAW) is Noor that was created much before Allah created anything.

[Wahabi and Deobandi believe that Prophet (SAW) was just like any other human being, except that he got chosen by Allah to be his prophet]

2: Prophet (SAW) is present as alive all the time.

[Wahabi believe that Prophet (SAW) is dead (nauzobillah) and thus could not benefit anyone in any way]

[Actually, according to our belief, Ruh stays alive and only Nafs dies. This is true for all humans, be they Muslims or non-Muslims, pious or sinner. Thus when a person dies, Ruh leave this body (Nafs that attach ruh with body dies) hence dead are still present around us but are beyond human sight (Barzakh means partition or ‘one on this side of curtain and other behind curtain’ and those who die move to other side of curtain).

Thus, one can ask those who have died to do dua from Allah for them. On the other hand, if Allah has still given them ability to act in this material world, as Allah can do that if Allah wants to, they can even do that (just like a living person can act in material world just because Allah gave that person ability to do so).

Going to Mazar and asking is chain of same belief, that if Allah has given power and ability to the pious person who left this world, he may be able to help, and if not than well and good. It is just like one ask someone for money (or any thing materially or spiritually) with belief that Allah may have given him ability and authority to provide, but if not, than well and good … no shirk or believing that person who left this world is nauzobillah God].

3: Sunnis and Shia, both celebrate Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi as they think that the day was blessed day when they got a gift from Allah. Deobandis and Wahabis not only abhor this celebration, but they get pain in their head … when others celebrate this day. Their hate is such that they even blow themselves to kill Muslims showing happiness and celebrating gift of Allah they received on that day (Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi).

[For Deobandi and Salafi (Wahabis), celebrating Eid-e-Milad-ul-Nabi is against Islam rather these people would not mind blowing themselves so that this day is not celebrated]

[Actually, it is way of Allah to make people remember and celebrate anniversaries of events. The day Quran was revealed to Prophet (Shab-e-Qadar), Hajj, stoning at devil during Hajj, running between Safa and Marwa, sacrificing animal on Hajj … are all anniversaries of past events that are related to people Allah loved.

During life of a prophet, Allah does not make things directly attached to that prophet as part of religion, thus running between Safa-and-Marwa, stoning the devil, Qurbani … and all things associated with Ibrahim (AS) and bibi Hajra (AS) did not became part of religion for Ibrahim (AS) to follow in his lifetime. Nevertheless, Allah made them part of religion for Muslims. Similarly, even though birth of Prophet (SAW) is not part of Islam, if there would have been later prophet, most likely it would have become part of Allah’s religion.

So, regardless of these ‘people’ who get antagonised say about this day and its anniversary celebration, it would stay blessed day for Muslims who received gift of Prophet (SAW), and Muslim would keep celebrating this day]

Etc … etc.

Quran …. Both Shia and Sunni have similar beliefs regarding Quran. Deobandis and especially Salafis have different beliefs.

1: Most interpretations of Quran is same for Shias and Sunnis, whereas Wahabis and Deobandis give different interpretations. There are stark differences in interpretations when it comes to Shirk, Attributes of Allah, person (zaat) of Allah, and many more… Further …

Quran has ayahs that are for Muslims and ayahs that are for non-Muslims. Shia and Sunnis comply with this principle, but Wahabis and Deobandis regularly apply ayahs meant for non-Muslims on Muslims.

Confessions by a Muslim (Kalma-e-Shahadah): Both Shias and Sunnis believe that confession determines a person faith whereas Wahabis (Salafis) and Deobandis do not, and that is the reason they do takfeer.

According to Shias as well as Sunnis, a person who read Kalma-e-Shahadah cannot do Shirk at all, as in that Kalma he is making himself witness (giving Shahadah) that:

There is no God (La-e-laha) … Except The god (illal-lah) … or only one God (word ‘Al’ or ‘The’ means One the Unique). So, in this confession, there is denial of all God except Allah, and that means, one who confesses this Kalma cannot do Shrik as that person completely denied existence of any gods except Allah.

Now anyone who knows that someone who confess (La-e-laha … Illal-lah) and still accuse that person of shrik (what both Salafis and Deobandis do) means that the person himself is doing shirk as he is trying to be Allah (judging other person regardless of what that person is confessing … something only Allah can do as far as faith is concerned).

Ahl-e-Bayt: Both Shia and Sunni believe that children of Prophet (SAW) in eyes of Allah have higher status than any Ummati of Prophet (SAW), just like children of Yaqub (AS) or ‘bani-Israel’ had higher status than any human.

Thus, as far as Aqeedah is concerned regarding Allah, Prophet (SAW), Quran, Confessions, and even ahl-e-Bayat … Shia and Sunni have same (or similar) beliefs but Wahabi and Salafis have different beliefs.

[If you or anyone thinks that I am wrong then instead of claiming in general terms, point out where I wrote wrong so that I can go further in detail, or correct myself]

Deobandis do not get support from Saudi Arabia? That is news to me. :slight_smile: … Anyhow, that PPP sight I quoted, also claims that they do. :slight_smile:

You claimed that all what I wrote is false … so, point them out … and yea, I put down names of outfits and claimed they are all Deobandis. Are you denying that?

As for Shia outfit, I have heard of them (and you might be right that they do not come that much in news), but can you please let me know if they killed, who they killed?

Ordinary people (Sunnis) doing their duties as citizen or all their killings are targeted on those who they believe are involved in killing Shias?

Because, if they targeted those who they consider as killers or promoting killing than it would be revenge attacks, whereas if they were/are targeting those who are ordinary innocent citizens (Sunnis or whoever) following their religious or worldly duties, than that is terrorism.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

Saleem bhai, you are saying EXACTLY what terrorists and fake 'Muslims' say.

Now Quran and hadith are being used to kill and assassinate people by 'civilized' and 'secular minded'? Very interesting. :)

There maybe people who pretend to be 'Muslims' and do exactly opposite but they use the same logic that what they are doing is in the name of 'religion' or it is the order from Quran to take laws in to their hands.

In the above hadith you quoted, there is no mention that the Prophet SAW wanted people to kill anyone indiscriminately or without due process.

Anyhow, this was then when the Prophet SAW from his knowledge might have known who is creating fitna or hate.

Today, we cannot say the law should be placed aside and target assassination or killing is justified.

Open trials is what is needed, not killings and murder.

We have to act on higher moral and ethical level otherwise there will be no difference in criminals and us.

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Re: Blood of scholars has no value in karachi

^^^ Brother, I think you are trying to put words in my post, words that I never used. I have not said anywhere that anyone should be killed without trial or without any course of justice. If I have, can you please show me, where?

Abstract of what I wrote is that, since these people (Takfeeries) have declared war on Pakistan and are killing Pakistanis indiscriminately, Pakistan have to act against them with force and without mercy. Since they are doing all this fully armed, Pakistan police cannot tackle them, and that means, army should be used against them (what Pakistan is already doing in KPK) and kill them if they resist arrest, and government should make sure justice to them is done (they do not get released without getting punished for their crimes). That is all.

I know that if that would be done, it is possible that many would defend them using Islam (something what many anchors on media and some politicians are already doing), so I quoted Islam to justify that war against them would not be un-islamic or unjustified, as all who creates fitna on earth, it becomes duty on Muslim state to wage war against them.

My writing that they deserve getting killed, is nothing to do with getting killed even when they are innocent, as in post I was referring to those who are creating fitna in the country with their actions, are Takfeeries and killing innocent civilians indiscriminately, and so on ... so for me, if they do get killed in any government action, then they deserve that (like lal-masjid goons).

[As for hadith of Prophet (SAW), it is nothing to do with his (SAW) time, but it is to do with later time]