^^^
One should know the problems to sort out the problems that are causing all these sectarian killings in Pakistan.
In my opinion, state should keep itself away from religion, should not tolerate sectarian hate mongering and should make all sects to live together in harmony, without infringing over others’ beliefs. If that would happen, then I think most of Pakistan problems would end and Pakistan would start progressing towards a better Pakistan in every way.
Note: I would like to make few things clear before people start misunderstanding my post.
Amongst Deobandis, there are good ones who practice what they believe without hating anyone, without doing takfeer, without promoting or supporting killings, or without killing anyone. They are Muslims just like other Muslims. Whatever they believe is their personal matter, as should be for all Muslims. If one do not like beliefs or practices of other sect then they can discuss cordially, but nevertheless, one should keep their dislike and religious beliefs to themselves and avoid creating problem for others because of their beliefs.
[For me, I live in UK where we have mostly Deobandi managed mosque, thus, most of the time I used Deobandi managed mosques for prayers, regardless of differences in beliefs].
On the other hand, there are another group of Deobandis who are Takfeeries, killers, hate mongers and fitna creators. Unfortunately, they have got big support from many Deobandi Madrasas. It is this 'Takfeeri Deobandis' that is problem and Muslims should get united to get rid of them for Pakistan to see end of sectarian violence, sectarian killings, and religious disharmony.
^^^
One should know the problems to sort out the problems that are causing all these sectarian killings in Pakistan.
In my opinion, state should keep itself away from religion, should not tolerate sectarian hate mongering and should make all sects to live together in harmony, without infringing over others’ beliefs. If that would happen, then I think most of Pakistan problems would end and Pakistan would start progressing towards a better Pakistan in every way.
In other words you are saying these systematic killing are because of 'state' being responsible since 'state' is not separating it away from religion?
In other words you are saying these systematic killing are because of 'state' being responsible since 'state' is not separating it away from religion?
Really?
Nope. :) ... What I am saying is that, state (or people running the state) have no spine (or showing no spine) and have become hostage to these Takfeeries. They are not protecting Pakistanis from these animals, rather silently accommodating them. It is possible that many running the state are part of or sympathetic with these groups too.
What is needed is that, state should crush them with state force and forget any compromise, negotiation, or accommodation.
Another fact is that, Pakistani politics, bureaucracy, armed forces, judiciary, and religion intermingle with each other, such should not happen, rather running of state should be separate and religion should be separate. Actually, state should take-over all religious institutions and make sure that they are not used for sectarian hate preaching, and make sure that they are used in such way that they create sectarian harmony in the country. That means, state controlling religion in harmonious way and making sure that religion do not control or effect running of the state.
Nope. :) ... What I am saying is that, state (or people running the state) have no spine (or showing no spine) and have become hostage to these Takfeeries. They are not protecting Pakistanis from these animals, rather silently accommodating them. It is possible that many running the state are part of or sympathetic with these groups too.
Sorry, after you wrote the cause needs to be sorted out you talked about state should kee itself away from religion. hence the confusion.
What is needed is that, state should crush them with state force and forget any compromise, negotiation, or accommodation.
Agreed.
But we cannot say who is to be blamed. Certainly the end result is killings of religious people.
Another fact is that, Pakistani politics, bureaucracy, armed forces, judiciary, and religion intermingles with each other, that should not happen, rather running of state should be separate and religion should be separate. **Actually, state should takeover all religious institutions and make them neutral of sects, and make sure that they are used in such way that they do not create sectarian disharmony in country. **That means, state controlling religion in harmonious way and making sure that religion do not control or effect running of the state.
Are you proposing KSA model?
Anyhow:
You do know you have two opposite and conflicting thoughts.
First: The state should separate itself from religion.
Second: State should take over all religious institutions.
Sorry, after you wrote the cause needs to be sorted out you talked about state should kee itself away from religion. hence the confusion.
State keeps away from religion means state not promoting or imposing any religion or sectarian beliefs on people. It does not mean state not facilitating and protecting people practicing their religion (or sectarian beliefs).
[quote]
But we cannot say who is to be blamed. Certainly the end result is killings of religious people.
[/quote]
Those who preach hate, abuse and accuse others (takreer is the biggest abuse and accusation in Islam), use force to make others follow religion (or religion they believe), kill others in the name of religion, etc ... are not religious people, rather they are religious parasites who create 'fitna on land', and thus do not deserve to live.
[quote]
Are you proposing KSA model?
[/quote]
Not really. KSA promotes and imposes religion on people, something state should not do.
People are born free and should have freedom to chose what they would like to believe, practice and follow. It is Allah who created people, have right to judge people and give reward or punishment ... something that should not happen in this world but would happen after death, on judgement day.
State keeps away from religion means state not promoting or imposing any religion or sectarian beliefs on people. It does not mean state not facilitating and protecting people practicing their religion (or sectarian beliefs).
Those who preach hate, abuse and accuse others (takreer is the biggest abuse and accusation in Islam), use force to make others follow religion (or religion they believe), kill others in the name of religion, etc ... are not religious people, rather they are religious parasites who create 'fitna on land', and thus do not deserve to live.
Not really, as in KSA state promotes and imposes religion on people.
State of Pakistan does not 'impose' any religion. And not any sect for sure.
People are free to 'practice' any religion/sect. It only makes sure that some people do not act as imposters since it says in the law. No forced conversion to any religion or sect is sanctioned in the law.
State of Pakistan does not 'impose' any religion. And not any sect for sure.
People are free to 'practice' any religion. It only makes sure that some people do not act as imposters since it says in the law. No forced conversion to any religion or sect is sanctioned in the law.
Pakistan do not impose religion? Are you serious?
It is Pakistani constitution that every law should be according to Shariah when Shariah is later development in Islam (that took help of Quran, assumed saying of Prophet (SAW), culture and practices of the time, thinking, interpolation and interpretations by some religious personalities, etc).
Actually, in Pakistan religion is part of running of state at every level.
It is Pakistani constitution that every law should be according to Shariah when Shariah is later development in Islam (that took help of Quran, assumed saying of Prophet (SAW), culture and practices of the time, thinking, interpolation and interpretations by some religious personalities, etc).
Actually, in Pakistan religion is part of running of state at every level.
Yes. Dead serious.
The word imposing means people are being forced/coerced to follow a particular religion (or a sect). OR if they do not follow a particular shariah they will be punished. Not true.
Anyone in Pakistan has freedom to follow his/her religion or sect. No state sponsored persecution just because someone follows a particular religion or sect.
You do know you have two opposite and conflicting thoughts.
First: The state should separate itself from religion.
Second: State should take over all religious institutions.
State should separate itself from religion: State should not use religion in running of the state.
State should take over all religious institutions: That is facilitating citizen so that they can practice their religion harmoniously. ...
Thus, taking control of religious institutions would not be making religion running the state but ... facilitating citizens in what they do (practice whatever religion they want to harmoniously in state institutions, without fear of persecution or abuses).
State should separate itself from religion: State should not use religion in running of the state.
State should take over all religious institutions: That is facilitating citizen so that they can practice their religion harmoniously. ...
Thus, taking control of religious institutions would not be making religion running the state but ... facilitating citizens in what they do (practice whatever religion they want to harmoniously in state institutions, without fear of persecution or abuses).
But you said earlier state should take over religious institutions. That simply means state controlling religious affairs and not separating it from religions/sects.
Making religious instituions harmonious means meddling with their affairs. Just like in KSA. Almost all religious institutions in KSA are harmonious of one particular sect.
You said:
**
"Actually, state should takeover all religious institutions and make them neutral of sects, and make sure that they are used in such way that they do not create sectarian disharmony in country. **"]
The word imposing means people are being forced/coerced to follow a particular religion (or a sect). OR if they do not follow a particular shariah they will be punished. Not true.
Anyone in Pakistan has freedom to follow his/her religion or sect. No state sponsored persecution just because someone follows a particular religion or sect.
I am sorry to say that practicing religion what one wants does not mean state is free from religion. State is free from religion means, there should be no laws that is due to religion nor there should be any prosecution due to religious beliefs.
I am sorry to say that practicing religion what one wants does not mean state is free from religion. State is free from religion means, there should be no laws that is due to religionnor there should be any prosecution due to religious beliefs.
But again that is not what you said sir. If you want state to take over religious institutions then that would be under some kind of law.
I already said there is no persecution by the law in Pakistan against someone holding any religious beliefs. Otherwise you would be seeing jails full of people of different religions.
But you said earlier state should take over religious institutions. That simply means state controlling religious affairs and not separating it from religions/sects.
Making religious instituions harmonious means meddling with their affairs. Just like in KSA. Almost all religious institutions in KSA are harmonious of one particular sect.
You said:
**
"Actually, state should takeover all religious institutions and make them neutral of sects, and make sure that they are used in such way that they do not create sectarian disharmony in country. **"]
Probably the way I put things in above para, what I wanted to say do not come out. Actually, what I wanted to say is that, religious institutions of common interest should be run or supervised by state.
For instance, all Mosques should belong to government and should have government supervision, so that hate preaching cannot be carried out using mosques. Similarly, all Madrasas should have government supervision and government should make sure that they do not create sectarian hate or preach sectarian abuses in the country.
97 Killed in Week of Militant Faction Fights in Pakistan Tribal Agency
Militants Fight Over Control of Key Valley Along Afghan Border
by Jason Ditz, January 31, 2013
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An extremely bloody fight between two rival Islamist militant factions in Pakistan’s Khyber Agency continued today, with each hoping to oust the other from the extremely valuable Tirah Valley, which lies along the border of Nangarhar Province, Afghanistan. A week of fighting has left 97 people killed and thousands of civilians displaced.
The clash is between a faction of the Tehreek-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and the local chapter of Ansar-ul Islam (AI). The TTP sees the area as vital to their ability to cross into Afghanistan, but has run afoul of AI in trying to assert those claims.
Though both are Sunni Islamist factions, they have extremely different ideologies, with AI adopting the more moderate Barelvi movement popular in the Indian subcontinent to provide an alternative to rival Lashkar-e Islam (LeI), a group associated more with the Wahhabist teachings popular with Islamists in the Arab world. The TTP is also in the Wahhabist milieu, and has thus found itself unwelcome in AI territory.
While the two sides have fought, the Pakistani military is also carrying out offensives in Khyber and neighboring agencies, and has launched air strikes into the same region. It is unclear from the reports how much of the death toll is associated with Pakistan’s own military, and how much is a function of the TTP-AI fight.
Probably the way I put things in above para, what I wanted to say do not come out. Actually, what I wanted to say is that, religious institutions of common interest should be run or supervised by state.
For instance, all Mosques should belong to government and should have government supervision, so that hate preaching cannot be carried out using mosques. Similarly, all Madrasas should have government supervision and government should make sure that they do not create sectarian hate or preach sectarian abuses in the country.
I am sorry for any misunderstanding.
I think what you want is strict laws against hate preaching and that is well accepted. Anyone trying to foul mouth against any religion or sect should be caught and face due process.
This can be done WITHOUT controlling or owning the religious institutions.
All Imams or religious scholars should abide by the laws of decency and Govt. should take serious notice of those who break this rule.
But again that is not what you said sir. If you want state to take over religious institutions then that would be under some kind of law.
I already said there is no persecution by the law in Pakistan against someone holding any religious beliefs. Otherwise you would be seeing jails full of people of different religions.
You mean, there is no persecution for adultery, drinking, gambling, etc? ... or there is no persecution for blasphemy? ... or there is no law regarding divorce discriminating women due to religion (women have to go to court for divorce whereas man can give divorce at will)?
Do you know that the way Shariah has put down law on adultery, it is bias?
For instance, if a married woman is caught in adultery they have no way to save themselves from death. Whereas, if married man is caught in adultery he can claim that he divorced his wife before adultery (as divorce do not need any witness) and thus would save himself from death by converting adultery crime into fornication.
Even though in Quran, both adultery and fornication has same punishment (and that is just too), but people who developed shariah law, put down different punishment for adultery and fornication. ... and unfortunate thing is that, there is no rape crime in Shariah, only adultery or fornication, so if a woman claim she got raped, she gets in due to confession that she had sex, whereas person raped stay free as there are no witness ... all these due to flawed religious laws that Pakistan has.
I think what you want is strict laws against hate preaching and that is well accepted. Anyone trying to foul mouth against any religion or sect should be caught and face due process.
This can be done WITHOUT controlling or owning the religious institutions.
All Imams or religious scholars should abide by the laws of decency and Govt. should take serious notice of those who break this rule.
If they are not supervised then who would know what they are preaching behind the doors?