Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Since it is usless to open a thread in the world forum that does’nt include U.S. Here is one more.
Another post that will get “0” replies, but as a conscientious guppy I feel obligated to bring to light the good things U.S does for the Muslim World. But thankless Ummah still blames U.S for their ills, While the article brings to light other issues. See the bold below, thats what caught my attention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/16/opinion/16friedman.html?oref=login

In the wake of U.S. aid to help Muslim and other victims of the recent tsunami, Colin Powell suggested that maybe, now that the Muslim world had seen “American generosity” and “American values in action,” it wouldn’t be so hostile to America.

**Don’t hold your breath waiting for a thank-you card. If the fact that American soldiers have risked their lives to save the Muslims of Bosnia, the Muslims of Kuwait, the Muslims of Somalia, the Muslims of Afghanistan and the Muslims of Iraq has earned the U.S. only the false accusation of being “anti-Muslim,” trust me, U.S. troops passing out bottled water and Pop-Tarts in Indonesia are not going to erase that lie. It is not an exaggeration to say that, if you throw in the Oslo peace process, U.S. foreign policy for the last 15 years has been dominated by an effort to save Muslims - not from tsunamis, but from tyrannies, mostly their own theocratic or autocratic regimes. **

It clearly has not made much of an impression. So you will pardon me if I say that I don’t care whether the state media in Saudi Arabia - whose government gave far less to the Muslim tsunami victims ($30 million) than the amount spent by King Fahd’s entourage on his last two vacations in Marbella (reportedly $100 million) - say nice things about us.

I believe the tensions between us and the Muslim world stem primarily from the conditions under which many Muslims live, not what we do. I believe free people, living under freely elected governments, with a free press and with economies and education systems that enable their young people to achieve their full potential, don’t spend a lot of time thinking about who to hate, who to blame, and who to lash out at. **Free countries don’t have leaders who use their media and state-owned “intellectuals” to deflect all of their people’s anger away from them and onto America. **

Ah, you say, but the Europeans live in free-market democracies and they have become very anti-American. Yes, some of them. But for Europeans, anti-Americanism is a hobby. For too many in the Muslim world it has become a career.

I am sure that young Taiwanese, young Koreans, young Japanese, young Poles and young Indians have their views on America, but they are not an obsession. They want our jobs, not our lives. **They live in societies that empower their young people to realize their full potential and to express any opinion - pro-American, anti-American or neutral. **

So I don’t want young Muslims to like us. I want them to like and respect themselves, their own countries and their own governments. I want them to have the same luxury to ignore America as young Taiwanese have - because they are too busy focusing on improving their own lives and governance, running for office, studying anything they want or finding good jobs in their own countries.

The Bush team is certainly not fostering all this when it mismanages a war it launched to liberate the people of Iraq. Its performance has been pathetic, and I understand anyone on the right or the left who wants to wash his hands of the whole thing. Speaking personally, though, I am still hoping that these Iraqi elections come off - out of respect for the Iraqis who have been ready to risk their lives for a chance to vote, out of contempt for the insurgents who want to prevent that and out of a deep conviction that something very important is at stake.

No, these elections won’t change Iraq or the region overnight, and Thomas Jefferson is not on the ballot. But they will at least kick off what the Iraq expert Yitzhak Nakash calls “a real, Iraqi political process run by and for Iraqis.”

That Iraqi political process “has to begin now to enable the U.S. to get out sooner rather than later,” added Mr. Nakash, a Brandeis professor and currently a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center. “The U.S. must go ahead with the elections in Iraq, accept the likelihood that Shiites and Kurds will do well, and leave the door open to Sunnis to join as partners in writing the Iraqi constitution. We want a system there that answers to the aspirations of Iraqis, not Americans. That is the key to a legitimate Iraqi government.”

Before the war, I said of Iraq, “We break it, we own it.” Today, my motto is, “If they own it, they’ll fix it.” America’s standing in the Muslim world will improve, not when we get a better message, but when they have more control. People with the responsibility and opportunity to run their own lives focus on their own lives - not on us. More of that would be a very good thing.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Babybell, I don't understand the following. "In the wake of U.S. aid to help Muslim and other victims of the recent tsunami, Colin Powell suggested that maybe, now that the Muslim world had seen "American generosity" and "American values in action," it wouldn't be so hostile to America.

So the people who would otherwise fly a plane into WTC would think twice simply because we are giving aid to Indonesia? If someone is going through such rationalizations in moving away from terrorism then I am sorry, I would like to keep the $$'s here and take my chances with my military against their tactics. Historically there has been poor returns on such stategies.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Welcome back. Now I am not the spokes person for Powell or Friedman but IMO what they are/were referring to, is the general muslim (even though emphasis is on arab street) street, while you are singling out a few from the muslim street that are hell bent on destruction of life and property.
As for your last sentence, We Americans ( and I dont have to tell you that) are kind hearted people there have been poor returns not only from Arab world but also from south america. It just shows our generosity towards the human kind towards the betterment and development of civilisaton knowing that it is thankless.:D.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Lets see bosnia? What exactly did the US troops do? Read Aza Best by Colum Murphy. Educate yourself.

Afghanistan? Lets see, more foriegn aid workers have died after Taliban rule than the 12 years of Taliban rule.

Somalia? Yeah they left after what 1 week?

Just last week it was made public that 45% of brits do not know what Aushwitz is. How many americans can spell it?

[quote]
It just shows our generosity towards the human kind towards the betterment and development of civilisaton knowing that it is thankless.
[/quote]

Now that is rich. Do to US subsidies on Agriculture on average 30 people die in the cotton producing countries in Africa. The US subsidies on Sugar constitute a good 20 people. Not to mention that the US is in a bigger agriculture war with the EU where it has forced countries in Africa struck by famine to return food sent by the EU and instead take american grown food otherwise Aid will be cut off.

It amazing how opinions are ignorant of the true facts and realities of the world. "Americans" live in a bubble.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

"Do to US subsidies on Agriculture on average 30 people die in the cotton producing countries in Africa. The US subsidies on Sugar constitute a good 20 people. Not to mention that the US is in a bigger agriculture war with the EU where it has forced countries in Africa struck by famine to return food sent by the EU and instead take american grown food otherwise Aid will be cut off."

Oh please. US farmers being paid to produce food kills Africans? What have you been smoking? I would love to see some convoluted quasi-political-economic analysis of that! So by the same logic, Chinese steel subsidies are killing Pennsylvanians?

Abject poverty, AIDs, social collapse, corruption, virtually no education, never ending wars, virtually no healthcare, and periodic genocide kill Africans. Finding some circuitous reason to blame the US certainly proves the point of this thread.

Undoubtedly you will tell us that you dined with a head of state this morning so you must be right.

By the way, welcome back Matsui...

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Just last week it was made public that 45% of brits do not know what Aushwitz is. How many americans can spell it?
And neither can you. But that besides the point.
Afghanistan? Lets see, more foriegn aid workers have died after Taliban rule than the 12 years of Taliban rule.
Yeah if Tailiban (dum daba keh baghay)was any good maybe they wouldn't have required foreign aid. Obviously it is the tailiban that is threatened so they take it out on innocent foreign aid workers SHAME on them but it's ok another thankless appreciation not only to America but the rest of the world as well. tsk tsk.
Somalia? Yeah they left after what 1 week?
Once again thankless Muslims. I am thinking already to myself that maybe Matsui is right screw 'em all (not exaclty his words), and I don't even know the guy.
It amazing how opinions are ignorant of the true facts and realities of the world. "Americans" live in a bubble.
I'll have to agree with you there. Americans do live in a bubble if they saw the thanklessness towards them in reality they should stop. But Naah.. even then they wont, because of their generous nature. I know it's hard to admit but eventually it does sink in.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

What have i been smoking? Where have you been living? You never heard Cancun? Cotton subsides? WTO? Oxfam paper on Cotton Subsidies? IIE? Out of 140 odd WTO members, only the US is not accepting the agreement on Cotton. Every much like the essential medicines issue.

I should start a thread on denial. It seems that the American citizens here, coconuts or paki can not accept what the rest of the world does. And Ohioguy if you want i can attach WTO documents on the subject of cotton.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Verizon if you are gonna pick on my spelling why don't you go back to claiming 10 wives and a dozen kids.

Isn't it interesting that your ignore my comments with regard to what the US does, but instead choose to comment on subjects which you can defend.

A quick question about Iraq and Afghanistan since when did it become right to violate international law? Secondly did the People of these countries request the US to attack? If so show it to me. These actions were inviolation of the UN, International Law and any moral code set out by man kind since the dawn of time. Heck even Westphilia said what the US did was wrong.

Generous nature? Shall we discuss subsidies? Or the fact that the US dumps enough food in to the ocean to feed half of starving africa?

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Verizon if you are gonna pick on my spelling why don't you go back to claiming 10 wives and a dozen kids
Maybe you should have concentrated on spellings rather than my 10 wives, but you liked my 10 wives I can tell.
Isn't it interesting that your ignore my comments with regard to what the US does, but instead choose to comment on subjects which you can defend.
Actually all you had was just plain old rhetoric and gripes. Nothing New and thats exactly what what the newpaper article talks about, muslims griping and blaming the west. Read it again. Oh by the way after you are done reading the wives thread read the pathetic -sunni muslims or arabs thread as well.
A quick question about Iraq and Afghanistan since when did it become right to violate international law? Secondly did the People of these countries request the US to attack? If so show it to me. These actions were inviolation of the UN, International Law and any moral code set out by man kind since the dawn of time. Heck even Westphilia said what the US did was wrong.
We should have bombed Saudi Arabia as well. International law doesn't cover terrorism. UN is still debating on the definition of terrorism (Terrorism and U.S foreign Policy p13 chapter 2) and calls it as "national liberation movements". U.S was attacked by Al-Qaeeda (last known address afghanistan) so US attacked. No issues there (and please dont hit me with another conspiracy theory, better yet post it in the joke forum).
Edit: Forgot your Iraq Gripe:
IMO U.S should not have liberated Iraq. We should have waited for U.N to finish their discussion on the terrorism discussion. But now that we did I support our troops and feel sorry for the majorit of Iraqis still being supressed by a few rogue sunni insurgents.
Generous nature? Shall we discuss subsidies? Or the fact that the US dumps enough food in to the ocean to feed half of starving africa?
Gripes again.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

By the way I thought this thread was another low performer "0" replies. Wow I am impressed.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

CM did you just write a paper on Cotton subsidies for your Int’l dev course at college? Good yaar… keep up the good work.

I am with CM on this one. US should not accept the agreement and then should bomb Oxfam, Cancun and the WTO. Maybe that will make these people more thankful.

Lastly, dumping grain has nothing to do with the fact that Americans are the most generous folks in the world. Next time you see an arab in a maybach…slap that man…atleast our poor are fat. :snooty:

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Coming back to the article that started this discussion. Generally I think Friedman makes some intelligent points, but unfrotunately in this one, he misses the boat in several areas.

For example he says

[QUOTE]
I believe free people, living under freely elected governments, with a free press and with economies and education systems that enable their young people to achieve their full potential, don't spend a lot of time thinking about who to hate, who to blame, and who to lash out at.
[/QUOTE]
This point would have been blown away in two seconds, and Mr Friedman realized it, so he tries to pre-empt it by saying

[QUOTE]
for Europeans, anti-Americanism is a hobby. For too many in the Muslim world it has become a career.
[/QUOTE]
This is as much a broad generalization as you see, and clearly its Mr Friedman's personal bias that is getting the better of him. Why would people be spending any time hating other people, or nations or countries? There have to be logical reasons behind it (assuming ofcourse, a small fraction of any society is completely devoid of logic). To brush aside broad world-wide and muslim-wide hate/mistrust of America by concluding that muslim dictators guide their populace to hate America in order to divert the public pressure, is perhaps taking a very naive view. Yes, that is one reason, but the real reason remains the US policies towards the governments of various Islamic dictatorships in the ME, as well as its protection of the state of Israel.

Having said that, its true that a person who has a job and who has a family to take care of, will not have so much time to be putting up hate slogans against US in the middle of the day as part of a mass-protest. But a lot of people still take time to do that, not just in Islamic countries but generally all over the world, including Europe. US has grown kinda immune to all this hate. Or should.

On the remaining part of his opinion that relates to Iraq, I don't disagree much with what he is saying, but I don't think anyone on this forum, myself included, has a good understanding of the real situation on the ground in Iraq. Generally we all will agree that US should leave as soon as possible, and Iraqis should govern their country themselves. No arguments there.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Actually that is the whole point of the article Faisal. There are some people who would hate the US while all logic suggests otherwise. Saying so is not a bias on his part but is the most salient point in the article.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Well, to me it seems he can't understand the logic of their reasoning. Not that those people are devoid of logic. Its more like seeing what you want to see. :)

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

I would think that someone like Friedman, who has won more pulitzers than the arab world has patents, and has covered the area he is writing on for over 30 years would be able to make that simplest of observations that you just coined mis-"understanding"...but I am thankful that you have change it from "bias". :)

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Some biases are hard to overcome even with years of conditioning and research. ;)

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Plus, I am not disagreeing that a lot of Americans will find his views absolutely fantastic. Maybe he will get another Pulitzer prize for this (or similar) writing too. But from where I see, its the "why" that is important, and I don't think this article is doing much justice on that point.

Re: Blame U.S easy scapegoat.

Well you said it bro..hopefully the more time people spend in America and among americans the more open minded they will become. :k:

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Verizon How are facts and the norms of international relations gripes and your idiotic illogical statements worthy of discussion. Btw the only reason this forum has been dead is because many of the people that frequeneted this section were kicked out for not conforming and learning double speak.

Look i suggest you get your facts straight before you even think about discussing issues with me? International laws do not cover terrorism? Right! ETA and Northern Ireland were not covered by International Laws. The hijackings in the 1970s and 1980s were not covered by international law.

Secondly the UN under the 6th committee came up with 3 different definitions of Terrorism. Each one was rejected by the US. Why? Ask them, because it seems they do not want a definition.

Lets ignore my gripes for now as you have no clue what i am talking about. Limited knowledge narrows the field for conversation. So lets stick to topics you can discuss at a grade school level.

Now on to your gripes which one would you prefer? "Oh we violated international law, killed civilians and destoryed 1000s of livelihoods but we did it for the right reasons" gripe? Or the "we do not get enough credit for what we do right" gripe? or "why does everybody hate us" gripe?

[quote]
Actually that is the whole point of the article Faisal. There are some people who would hate the US while all logic suggests otherwise. Saying so is not a bias on his part but is the most salient point in the article.
[/quote]

And people support the US devoid of any logical reasons. But its good to see 50% of the US population is not a bunch of red neck hicks or immigrants selling their soul for a visa.

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^ Yes, thank god for Mushy. :k: