Black Hawk down over Karbala - 7 US soldiers killed

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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All is not exactly going well for the American military in southern Iraq?

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=GVOGI1VKVRCMMCRBAELCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=2498708

U.S. Chopper Down in Iraq; Confusion Over Casualties

A U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter has been shot down by small arms fire in southern Iraq, killing seven and wounding four on board, a U.S. official said on Wednesday. The official at the Pentagon, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the helicopter was shot down near Kerbala, 50 miles south of Baghdad, early on Thursday Iraqi time. But Central Command in Tampa, Florida, issued a contradictory statement, saying the Black Hawk was downed at about 7:30 p.m. local time on Wednesday and that initial reports put the number of people on board at six. The Central Command statement said there was no confirmation of casualties. There was no immediate explanation for the discrepancies in information from the Pentagon and from Central Command. The Pentagon official said search and rescue personnel were at the scene where the craft came down, adding: “They were pulling people out.” The Black Hawk had been carrying 11 personnel, the official said. The Black Hawk was the second U.S. helicopter lost in combat since U.S. and British forces invaded Iraq two weeks ago. An Apache gunship went down last week and its two crew members were captured by Iraqi forces.

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BBC news is just reporting that a US Hornet warplane has crashed over southern Iraq. The “fate of the pilot [is] unknown”. It’s flashing on the top of the main webpage, no specific URL at this point - Home - BBC News

i’ll try to post a direct URL with more information as soon as i locate one.

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The plane was reported shot down by a missile over Karbala, same place as the Black Hawk helicopter. It’s getting messy over Karbala…

Missile Downs U.S. FA-18 Hornet Over Iraq -Networks

A U.S. FA-18 Hornet fighter-bomber has been shot down over southern Iraq by a surface-to-air missile, U.S. television networks reported on Wednesday. Fox News Channel and ABC News said the fate of the pilot from the carrier-based aircraft was not known. Pentagon officials had no immediate comment on the reports.

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OK good job. now you guys can go to sleep with a smile but sadly very unfortunate for the folks who fired these anti air guns, because right now there is a big brother flying right over those locations, digitizing the exact co-ordinates. Sad that these poorly equiped Iraqis ragtags will be dying tonight for a short lived thrill for you guys.

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Exactly.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChannMahi: *
OK good job. now you guys can go to sleep with a smile but sadly very unfortunate for the folks who fired these anti air guns, because right now there is a big brother flying right over those locations, digitizing the exact co-ordinates. Sad that these poorly equiped Iraqis ragtags will be dying tonight for a short lived thrill for you guys.
[/QUOTE]

It's a war, what do you expect them to do, throw flowers at the US troops? Is that what the sikh cannon fodder that makes up the Indian army would do under attack from an invading army?

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That’s an excellent point…:k:

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Might be a short lived thrill, but these valiant soldiers are fighting for their country, honour and way of life despite the disadvantage.

This separates the men from the boys!

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Chan Ji, I bet that plane was there to kill those iraqis anyway.

Khud to doobain gay, per tum ko bhi lay doobain gay sanam fits here.

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The Iraqis are known to have taken SAMs designed to be fired from static launchers and modified them to be mobile - I wouldn't be surprised if the spot that SAM was fired was empty by the time the retaliatory air strike came. They seem to have learned the lesson that when fighting the US, unless something is mobile it's just scrap waiting to happen.

I *do/i hope that SAM was fired from a mobile launcher and not a fixed one....

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Judge^MentuLL: *

It's a war, what do you expect them to do, throw flowers at the US troops? Is that what the sikh cannon fodder that makes up the Indian army would do under attack from an invading army?
[/QUOTE]

No, they would would do the same as the muslim, hindu, christian, buddhist and jewish soldiers of the Indian army. FIght! Not hide behind women and children and hole up in mosques like the brave muj rats.

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I think you’re getting mixed up with the rats who hid in the Golden Temple wearing orange turbans. Indhira’s boys gave them a good kicking and rightly so :k:

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No I am talking about the ones that are currently holed up in the mosque in Iraq. The ones that use women and children as shields in Iraq and else where in the muslim world and the ones that shoot POW’s in the head. Wear burkhas instead of engaging the enemy.

You see, American women are braver than most of your fighters. Who surrender at the first sign of trouble…enjoy

POW Reportedly Fought Captors With Gun
2 hours, 24 minutes ago

By JOE COLEMAN, Associated Press Writer

LANDSTUHL, Germany - Spirited but hungry, rescued prisoner of war Pfc. Jessica Lynch arrived in Germany for treatment of two broken legs and bullet wounds reportedly suffered in a fierce gun battle she waged against her Iraqi captors.

The Washington Post reported Thursday that the 19-year-old Army supply clerk shot several Iraqi soldiers during the March 23 ambush that resulted in her capture. She kept firing even after she had several gunshot wounds, finally running out of ammunition, the newspaper said, citing unidentified U.S. officials.

“She was fighting to the death,” the Post quoted an official as saying. “She did not want to be taken alive.”

Pentagon (news - web sites) officials and family members contacted late Wednesday declined comment on the report.

Lynch was rescued from an Iraqi hospital in a daring nighttime raid Tuesday by U.S. commandos acting on a CIA (news - web sites) tip.

The former POW left Iraq (news - web sites) on a stretcher with an American flag folded across her chest, and arrived at a U.S. air base in Germany late Wednesday for treatment at the U.S. military’s Landstuhl Regional Medical Center.

From Germany, she spoke with her family at their home in Palestine, W.Va., in a 15-minute telephone call.

“She’s real spirited. She hasn’t eaten in eight days and she’s hungry,” said her father, Greg Lynch. “She wants some food.”

Randy Coleman, a military spokesman in West Virginia, said Lynch had fractures in both legs, and her family said she also injured her arm. U.S. officials in Kuwait said earlier she had two broken legs, a broken arm and at least one gunshot wound.

According to the Post account, she was also stabbed when Iraqi forces closed in on her.

Landstuhl spokesman Capt. Norris Jones would not comment on Lynch’s injuries other than to say she was in stable condition.

“She’s weak, she knows she’s injured and they’re doing the best that they can to get her so she can travel,” said her brother Greg Lynch Jr. Her father said she will be transferred to Walter Reed Hospital in Washington as soon as possible.

The U.S. forces who rescued her also found 11 corpses — some believed to be Americans — in and around Saddam Hospital, and the military was trying to determine whether any of them were captured members of her unit.

Lynch and as many as 12 other members of the 507th Maintenance Company were captured after making a wrong turn in Nasiriyah. She watched several soldiers in her unit die in the ambush, the Post reported.

Not long after the fighting, five of Lynch’s fellow soldiers showed up in Iraqi television footage being asked questions by their captors. The video also showed bodies, apparently of U.S. soldiers, leading the Pentagon to accuse Iraq of executing some POWs.

Lynch joined the Army after graduating from high school in 2001. Her brother Greg enlisted the same day. Her 18-year-old sister Brandi will report for duty in August.

“I still want to do it even more. It’s the Lynch blood,” Brandi Lynch said.

To help Lynch reach her goal of becoming a kindergarten teacher, West Virginia and Marshall universities and Liberty College in Lynchburg, Va., offered her competing packages Wednesday.

And West Virginia Gov. Bob Wise said the state would finance Lynch’s education at a state public college or university of her choosing.

“She wants to become a teacher, and we are going to see that she becomes one,” he said after visiting the Lynch family at home.

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Something I thought was neat about this also and deserves as much credit as the Special Forces Guys who took her out of there.

I heard (rumors) an Iraqi passed a note to a journalist/or someone saying she was still alive.

Someone in Iraq wanted to help her. I wonder if thats because she was from Palestine? W.V.?

Anyway I would imagine the people at the hospital in Nasaryiah took pretty good care of her for 7 or 8 eight days. My goodness, have heard the injuries were 2 broken legs and a broken arm and possibly a gunshot wound. Maybe exagerated. Maybe not.

I think those that she was captured by did a kindness. Those that faught against her could have left her to die as an enemy, but they didn't. They were honorable by taking her to a hospital and the hospital must have been taking very good care of her with all of those injuries.

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Yes American soldiers are well known for their bravery 30,000ft up.

Here’s an independent assessment from a Brit ex-commander who rates them more in the pussy category:

**That, however, is the Brits: the fierce Iraqi resistance may have come as more of a shock to American soldiers who need to believe in a glory fantasy, a cultural narrative in which they are the knights in shining armour. Fired up by their leaders’ hysterical chauvinism and encouraged to believe in their invincible power, their confidence may have been badly dented. Accustomed to wars such as those in Afghanistan or Bosnia, where they are primarily used to clear up after the air force has shocked, awed and flattened the enemy, they may not be so well prepared for actual combat. **

Their serotonin levels will have been lowered, making them more impulsive, aggressive and depressive. Their cortisol levels, the fight-flight hormone, will have rocketed, jamming them into a permanent state of anxiety.

Based on his experience of joint exercises, Arkell believes there is a real difference in the American troops’ mental approach. “If you are going to plunge your bayonet into someone’s gut or empty a gun into them from six feet, you need to feel really good about it, that you are a good boy doing the right thing.

“The Americans seem to need to think of themselves as highly glamorised, feel the need for a richer and more morally black and white justification. When I was in the British Army it was much more a case of ‘point and shoot’. Insofar as justification was consciously considered, it was apolitical, about protecting your mates and surviving.”

Another problem for the Americans is the ambiguity of many of the scenarios confronting the coalition forces. This is a war in which Iraqis in civilian clothing could be killers, while those in enemy uniform could be desperate to surrender. British troops are used to that ambiguity in Northern Ireland; the Americans are not. **In any case, again from Arkell’s experience on exercises, the Americans are “not what you would call warriors. They were very long on externals, with excellent kit, like uniforms, body armour and weapons, and they loved demonstrative battle cries — lots of ‘Yes Sah’ and marching chants.

“But when night fell you sensed that all they wanted to do was fire up the barbecue and tuck into their rations — not 24-hour soldiers. **By contrast, perhaps because of our feudal society, the Brits are more likely to expect to have boots that leak and to think their officers are idiots, but they are maybe better at just getting on with it.”

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Judge^MentuLL: *
Yes American soldiers are well known for their bravery 30,000ft up.

“But when night fell you sensed that all they wanted to do was fire up the barbecue and tuck into their rations — not 24-hour soldiers. **By contrast, perhaps because of our feudal society, the Brits are more likely to expect to have boots that leak and to think their officers are idiots, but they are maybe better at just getting on with it.”
[/QUOTE]

Probobly because the majority of the combat troops are teenagers, early 20's, kids, who the most part joined the service for education money.

It's hard imagine them up against battle hard for 20 years Iraqi soldiers who are fighting to defend Saddam. Yeah maybe the technology is there. I know they are strong and have heart, But I worry, and the worry is close to home as my relative is headed to Saudi in a month, for a year.

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Defend Saddam you turnip? Iraq more like.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
No I am talking about the ones that are currently holed up in the mosque in Iraq. The ones that use women and children as shields in Iraq and else where in the muslim world and the ones that shoot POW's in the head. Wear burkhas instead of engaging the enemy.
......
[/quote]

right and Um-al-Qasr and Baghdad and Karbala were taken a month ago, what we see today is just a movie.

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AAG, you over look the fact that most of the British troops are equally young. They're also mainly in their early 20s at most, kids who joined the army (many enlisted at the age of 16, though Britain has a policy of only sending soldiers 18 or over into battle to avoid accusations of using child soldiers). For example In a recent tank accident, the only person not to become a casualty out of a 3-man tank crew was the 18-year old driver. He had already been a professional soldier for 2 years.

And yet the difference between the level of professionality of British troops and American troops is staggering, as made clear in the Guardian article. Just compare the number of civilian deaths at checkpoints by emotional gung-ho ill-disciplined American troops, versus the figure of absolutely zero known civilian deaths at checkpoints inflicted by British troops.

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Re: Black Hawk down over Karbala - 7 US soldiers killed

what does it really take for US public to start opposing war at mass level? I was hearing NPR yesterday, where a “pro-troop” demonstrator lady said “we support them, they are fighting for our freedom”.

I laughed, but had to be careful because I was driving. What people can be led to believe. :disgust: