The essence maybe... but not the examples...
Punishment for adultery is the same in Christianity/Judaism and Islam?
Not sure about Christianity (at least as it stands now)... why do you ask?
Because even when the example is for adultry, the fact remains that the rules in Christianity and Judaism are similar atleast as far as when it was revealed or practised by Hazrat Isa (Peace be upon him)... but that in Islam, its a new sharia, that doesn't borrow, but in many cases, cancel out the previous sharias.
Also, for example, in Judaism, the sharia is to keep Saturday holy. There is no such sabbath in Islam. The rule for Friday is infact the opposite. That is, to come and pray the jummah salah and then spread out to earn your livlihood. Very contrasting.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Because even when the example is for adultry, the fact remains that the rules in Christianity and Judaism are similar atleast as far as when it was revealed or practised by Hazrat Isa (Peace be upon him)... but that in Islam, its a new sharia, that doesn't borrow, but in many cases, cancel out the previous sharias.
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You need to understand your examples better before you start basing conclusions on them... again, your thinking process based on this example is incorrect because
--- The earlier "casting the first stone" example you cited from Prophet Isa (you thought it referred to murder, whereas it refers to adultery/fornication) proves that in fact the rule for this in Christianity and Judaism are not similar even at the time of Prophet Isa (as). Saying "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" is poles apart from the Old Testament judgement on adultery. Your example disproves your own point!
--- You haven't shown how in Islam it is a "new sharia" and how it differs with what is in the Old Testament.
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Also, for example, in Judaism, the sharia is to keep Saturday holy. There is no such sabbath in Islam. The rule for Friday is infact the opposite. That is, to come and pray the jummah salah and then spread out to earn your livlihood. Very contrasting.
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If anything, the Islamic sabbath (for want of a better term) lasts from the time the imam sits on the pulpit until he completes the Friday prayer... during this time Muslims (males at least) are told not to trade and are asked to leave all worldly pursuits and come to the prayer as is mentioned in the Qur'an... resembles the sabbath i'd say with a shorter time span... think about your examples and don't be hasty...
I guess your own response to this thread is summarized in this one sentence.
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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
God's word doesn't contradict and he revealed one religion since time began...
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So lets leave it at that.
Yes, but think through your examples before citing them... with inaccurate examples your conclusions might be all wrong... this time you likely concluded right, even though your examples were misplaced... so not sure what your thinking process was...
Murder or fornication is not the main point. I am pretty certain Christ did not cancel out Moses' sharia. He supplemented it. Islam is different, as it gives a complete new sharia and does not ask its followers to follow the old one. We are not asked to observe the sabbath of Saturday, for example.
Your one line summary, quoted above, suggests something else. Not sure.
Where some may see contradictions in the divine texts, it can either be because of additions made later into the word of God, or more complete guidance provided by God, Himself. Either way, as a muslim, when I read Quran, I don't necessarily have a problem that why it does or does not conform to the message of previous texts. Its more a matter of belief that Quran is accurate. And for me, that is enough.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I am pretty certain Christ did not cancel out Moses' sharia.
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He amended some halal/harams as i've already mentioned. In the same way, the Islamic sharia is not a complete overhaul of previous sharia in the way that you seem to be suggesting... some things remain the same (you've already mentioned the 'eye for an eye' rule yourself), some things are different... its not all new... think about it
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Your one line summary, quoted above, suggests something else. Not sure.
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It doesn't.
Well, if it doesn't than just leave it at that.
I never suggested Islam changed everything. I just said Islam is a complete sharia and it doesn't give out parts and points to older ones for further guidance.
You said: "Muhammad was given the sharia that an eye for an eye"
Where in the Qur'an?
I was paraphrasing earlier. The complete command is here
002.178
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom.
And you understand from this verse about murder that an eye can be taken out/injured in retaliation for a similar eye injury?
p.s. Or did you mean "a life for a life"?
^ Yes.
And lets focus on the question of this thread, stated in the first post. Whether the messages of God, i.e. divine texts contradict each other or not. And what does it mean if it does or does not.
I guess, that still leaves us with the last part of the question about why Bible is not protected by God. The only answer I can think of is that Allah, in His infinite wisdom knew that there will be a complete guidance coming in the form of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and Quran, so He will only protect the authenticity of the final message. Your thoughts...?
ps. ^ "Your" means anyone who is interesting in contributing a response.
In the context of your point about sharias being same/different... a "life for a life" (changed from your earlier "an eye for an eye") is not "clearly different" because this is the same law as in the Old Testament...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
^ Yes.
And lets focus on the question of this thread, stated in the first post. Whether the messages of God, i.e. divine texts contradict each other or not. And what does it mean if it does or does not.
I guess, that still leaves us with the last part of the question about why Bible is not protected by God. The only answer I can think of is that Allah, in His infinite wisdom knew that there will be a complete guidance coming in the form of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and Quran, so He will only protect the authenticity of the final message. Your thoughts...?
ps. ^ "Your" means anyone who is interesting in contributing a response.
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Faisal, I respect your veiws,, but the question remains. Why would God confuse His creatures by sending different commands to different regions and cultures when He, with His Infinte Wisdom, knew that people will be moving around the Globe and end up living in mixed societies. The books which clash with each other but beleived to be from the same God. Now even in Quran, we see numorous contradiction which are well known. OK, they are may be contradictory in interpretations but people end up with different beleifs. and that would obviously mean that God has failed to protect the Book. after all the book itself means nothing until it is put into practice and if people would translate it differently according to their understanding, regardless of their intentions, it is bound to create an environment like we have today.
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*Originally posted by Sher: *
Why would God confuse His creatures by sending different commands to different regions and cultures when He, with His Infinte Wisdom, knew that people will be moving around the Globe and end up living in mixed societies.
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Well, its not just "different regions and cultures", but different times as well. From my perspective, the single biggest message is monotheism: To worship only one God. That message is consistent throughout history for all messangers. The details on how to spend your life, how to pray, jurisprudence etc, are gradual and built upon over time. My belief is that it matured in or around the year 630 AD.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
The books which clash with each other but beleived to be from the same God. Now even in Quran, we see numorous contradiction which are well known.
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I don't believe the books clash. If you follow sequentially from Scrolls to Psalms to Torah to Injeel to Quran, the message builts upon and matures over time. The final message says, "this is complete, the previous ones were from Me too, but now you only need to read the final and most complete message" and live your lives accordingly.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
OK, they are may be contradictory in interpretations but people end up with different beleifs. and that would obviously mean that God has failed to protect the Book. after all the book itself means nothing until it is put into practice and if people would translate it differently according to their understanding, regardless of their intentions, it is bound to create an environment like we have today.
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People end up with different beliefs because God has given us the gift of mind and God has programmed human beings to analyze and interpret. This is part of our genetic function. That doesn't mean the Book is not protected. God has given us the Message and given us the choice to decide what we want to do with our lives. Anyone who makes a good faith effort to read, understand and comply with the Message is successful. In my mind, it doesn't matter if, despite his best faith efforts, he did not reach the right conclusions 100% of the time. To make the effort to understand the message and comply is more important.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
That doesn't mean the Book is not protected. God has given us the Message and given us the choice to decide what we want to do with our lives. Anyone who makes a good faith effort to read, understand and comply with the Message is successful. In my mind, it doesn't matter if, despite his best faith efforts, he did not reach the right conclusions 100% of the time. To make the effort to understand the message and comply is more important.
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Right Faisal. But the majority doesn't think so, whichever religion they belong to. We want our religion/our sect to prevail above all the others. This is what religion does to you. It almost makes you crazy. Just look at the some of the people in this thread jumping up and down on my queries. They are so insecure about their faiths that they cant accept someone talking about it in a logical and practical manner.
Anyways. We should be least concerned about whether the books were protected or not. Religion on paper looks quite beautiful but a religion in action is what effects us. Everything else said about all this is bull.
Likewise, "different interpretations" might be just honest attempts at understanding the same book but it can create hovac to nations and mankind. We all know that well.