Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

[vroom]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

i really cant decide who's worse, bhutto for meeting dan gillerman or dan gillerman for meeting bhutto.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

i really cant decide who's worse, bhutto for meeting dan gillerman or dan gillerman for meeting bhutto.

It seems she requested the meeting with him, not the other way round.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

I have no issue with continuity, we need more continuity in the country, right now every govt comes in dismantles whatthe previous govtw as workign ( as noted by teh adb report that you had shared in a diff thread)

but are we saying that these ppl have no ideas of their own? wow if they are goign to continue ebveryting then there is nothing to change eh?

I am not against planning. But the ground realities r that our politics hasn't matured to the level where every party has proper plans about how they r going to implement their agenda.

How many plans did Mush have when he assumed power? None. He himself admits he knew practically nothing about economics.

failing to plan is planning to fail.

so u are right, we consistently fail, because we dont plan right.

Like I said, in principle I dont disagree with you but the ground reality of our politics is different. Our political parties have not matured/ do not have enough resources/ political will to carry out such academic work. If democracy is allowed to run it's course with proper checks and balances, over a period of time, soon I hope, where our politics will evolve from personality based cults to issue based politics. Trouble with democracy in pakistan has been that there were no checks and balances and no media to confront the government over its adventures. With these two institutions in place, I think we r sailing in the right direction.

its not a question of sellign plans to get votes it is the question to have plans because you have a vision for the nation and you want to make a change, dontr do it for the masses if the masses cant comprehend it but do it because it needs to be done. But it is not done, which basically shows that its power they are after, not a will to really serve the nation.

Like I said, we need to give time to democracy in Pakistan under proper environment. Environment which has never been there and is only now slowly emerging. Free judiciary, free media, a vibrant civil society. All the ingredients r there.

so why dont educated people like you and I hold politicians accountable and ask them for their vision mission strategy, plan, tactics, game plan...

why should we give them a free pass, especially if we want them to mature?

Good question but the fact is that educated people in Pakistan don't vote.

[vroom]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

i hope benazir wasnt as desperate as to give the impression pakistan would change its position on the middle east issue. this decision is not hers to make

this is great example of why you shouldnt exile your previous heads of state, and any allegations of looting should be made in a court of law so as to stop people taking desperate measures to get back in

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

You know, it may not be a bad idea to see a musharaf bb combo. Mush setting agenda and bb the marketing face.Mush has tried gallantly in the past but beyond outwitting a few press corp people, has in general come of as clown in front of other leaders. OTOH bb is capable of genuinely engaging others in substantial conversation and has the invaluable asset of diplomats - shamelessness.Nawas sharief should deputized to Anbar province. Its a short commute from Riyadh

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

I wonder what PPP supporters have to say about this?

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

It seems she requested the meeting with him, not the other way round.

Who paid the bill? Which restarant did they meet in?

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Benazir meets Israel’s UN ambassador

@Fraudz

I dont disagree, but it has to be run in parellel, so you have the systems of checks and balances getting in place now, you need clear clean elections which to my knowledge have never taken place in the modern era in Pakistan.

We might have some fair elections this time. At least fairer than before. All fingers r pointing towards that.

@Fraudz

but we cant wait and say these are not some expectations that we have.

we need to have TV and live debates between candidates, townha meetings and al where they are asked the tough questions.

Dawn News has a debate program going on. The program is called 30:30, where each participant is giving 30 seconds to respond to questions/comments etc. They haven’t pitted any election candidates against each other yet but they probably will when elections come near. Unfortunately Dawn has a small, educated viewership so it is probably not peneterating the mass market.

On other hand, CNBC Pakistan was given a license to operate an Urdu language news and current affairs channel so that should take care of quality debate reaching most Pakistani’s. With CNBC’s backing, they’ll be a lot better than Geo/AAJ/ARY etc.

Channel’s called JAAG. weird name, I know.

Townhall meetings..hmmm not sure if that’s such a feasible idea with terrorists having a Khilafat agenda out to under mine democracy.

@Fraudz

and one more thought, they dont need academics to do planning. In my work, before a product is even aunched, when it is goign through gating process and just has been greenighted as a product that wil be designed, deveoped and launched, My team has aready done competitive assessment, by the time the product is ready to be aunched we know exacty how it wi be aunched, our pitch, media outets, conferences we will sponsor.

u need practitioners not academicians, so the dude who may get the nod as education minister, what woud he do how wi he do it differenty what will the costs be, what will the rollout be. Now if they dont stick 100% to the plan thats fine but you have some direction set some goals and all.

itnay achay agr hamaray politicians hotay toh kya chaiyay tha. Like they say, it’s complicated. The feudal culture, weak political organizations, weaker institutions..all have combined to create personality cults. people don’t vote for ideologies/parties. They vote for personalities. If Nawaz were to join PML-Q, he’d still win from his constituency. Only over time when these folks r given a good run [full term] will people be able to figure out how good or bad these folks really were. Once that starts to happen, people will automatically start questioning them. Elections r the best accountability. Let’s have fair elections, I say.

@Fraudz

Peope may think of planning and strategy as just some unimpementabe pie in teh sky view, those strategies are not worth the paper they are on. They have to be realistic.

anyways so if you have all these assessments education, heath, infrastructure etc etc and the cost for that, and you also know what you wil have in your pocket, then u start prioritizing things.

otherwise u make promises, without knowing if you can keep em, get in power and ppl get

hmmm pml-n has a long list of promises on it’s website:

http://www.pmln.org.pk/manifesto.php

if u have the time, check it out. some of the ideas r simple and straight forward. time to fire some emails

but I see ur point and there’s nothing much u said with which I can disagree. My only point is that all of what u wrote is not possible as long as the parliament is hijacked by military AND as long as parties keep thinking they can get into power through back channels [stand up Benazir]

@Fraudz

why would they? with bad choices and no direction or vision from these leaders why woud someone vote, on what basis.

so pp may vote based on ethnicity religion or other factors, that is teh bind support that we see. **but how can pp make an educated choice when there is nothign to realy gauge the candidates on.
**
what the decision is based on then is, is one evil bigger than the other, is an unknown evil bigger than a known evil etc.

true.

[Flame_of_Life]

Re: Benazir meets Israel’s UN ambassador

@Fraudz

fruedian slip mon ami? j/k

I think we agree on all points

it is late here

[Prince_Abbas]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

dude when someone gets on a bus and blows himself up along with innocent passengers on the bus, that person is a terrorist in my view.

I have heard that all Israeli Zionists are reservist soldiers. And killing soldiers occupying one's country is not considered terrorism.
And do we know how did Zionists control Muslim "terrorists"? Through apartheid and anti-semitic discrimination. Are we willing to implement such practices in Pakistan?

[Captain1]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

I have heard that all Israeli Zionists are reservist soldiers. And killing soldiers occupying one's country is not considered terrorism.

May be just like all (those who go through NCC training) Pakistanis are 'reservist' soldiers.

[Prince_Abbas]

Re: Benazir meets Israel’s UN ambassador

NCC is a joke. Those are real army reservists in Zionist regime.

List of countries by number of military and paramilitary personnel

PAKISTAN: Active personnel: 619,000 Reserve force: 528,000
Active troops per thousand citizens: 3.72

ISRAEL: Active personnel: 168,000 Reserve force: 408,000
Active troops per thousand citizens: 23.90

[Captain1]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

^ well, whether NCC is a joke or not, but the purpose is same i.e. reservists.

[Iconoclast]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

^Cmon, we know that she is not discussing counter terrorrism with the jew. She is lobbying support from US Jewish community.

What a pity that now only Uncle Sam's "Aasheerbaad" is not enough, one has to be endorsed by Israel too to come in power in land of the pure.

[Prince_Abbas]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

^ well, whether NCC is a joke or not, but the purpose is same i.e. reservists.

NCC people are not reservists. They are not considered reservists by anyone. Wikipedia's information is a proof. Giving one week parade-training to people does not make them military reservist.

If NCC people really are considered reservists then enemies have the right to kill them, just like they would have the right to kill other soldiers.

[Prince_Abbas]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

you dont have to replicate everything that have, but if you can learn what they are ding, what is working and what if not working then what is so wrong with that?

What is working is apartheid treatment of Palestinians, and the brutal repression of the whole nation.
Can we do it with all Pathans?

There is no need to talk to Israelis to control terrorism in Pak. We can do it by talking to Britain or Americans.

[Aalsi]

Re: Benazir meets Israel’s UN ambassador

@Reza_Pahlavi

I wonder what PPP supporters have to say about this?

I don’t know about PPP supporters, but I am very happy about BB or any other Pakistani political leader meeting Israelis. Pakistan should be moving towards nomalizing relationship with Israel.

People should forget about what the so called Arabs might think. As if the Arabs really give a damn about Pakistan.

Just imagine, Pakistan, India, Israel, USA and China - all bosom buddies

[Captain1]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

If NCC people really are considered reservists then enemies have the right to kill them, just like they would have the right to kill other soldiers.

Yes, NCC people are considered "reservists", atleast thats what we were told that in case of war we might be called to help out army.

[vroom]

Re: Benazir meets Israel’s UN ambassador

@Aalsi

I don’t know about PPP supporters, but I am very happy about BB or any other Pakistani political leader meeting Israelis. Pakistan should be moving towards nomalizing relationship with Israel.

People should forget about what the so called Arabs might think. As if the Arabs really give a damn about Pakistan.

its a pakistani issue, its what you believe to be right or wrong as a nation. arabs dont think anything and what they think doesnt matter all that much. pakistan as a nation believes in only recognising israel after palestine has been established. pakistan poses no ambition or threat to israel at state level.

you cant go around pretending or being yes men. imaan is at stake so the consequences of a bitter decision of recognising israel is a recipe for disaster.

the way israel took and have kept the land is despised by many. its something which is deeply deplorable to people of imaan and honour. this is the only shared oppinion regarding palestine across the whole ‘ummah’.

Just imagine, Pakistan, India, Israel, USA and China - all bosom buddies

!

dan gillerman was just testing the waters

when he must have heard ‘‘yes, of course’’ for the 62nd time, including whether pakistan would support (to some extent) an attack on iran, he must have decided she is great.

looking great in the eyes of the israellis is expensive

[Prince_Abbas]

Re: Benazir meets Israel's UN ambassador

@Captain1

Yes, NCC people are considered "reservists", atleast thats what we were told that in case of war we might be called to help out army.

Like I said, NCC is a joke. And if it really is reservist army then enemy can kill them at the time of war.