Re: Believers on Believers
yea, and give god a break too. Who gets the perks of jannah. muslim soldiers or muslim molvies? The confusion continues even after the suckers are dead.
Re: Believers on Believers
Its also human nature to be selfish, lie, to take advantage when possible, to be greedy ... it doesn't make these actions moral.
I am not claiming that if someone slaps me and Br. ravage, I will feel his pain as much as mine. But there is something definitely wrong if I start to convince myself that my pain is worse and satisfy my conscious that I am bound by human nature to think so.
clearly people on that site are expressing their feelings rather than evaluating the value of one life versus another from an objective standpoint Br Ahmadjee. as in your example, the immediacy and relateability of a tragedy greatly increases how much you feel it.
Re: Believers on Believers
"The government could have held a longer dialogue. We can sit and have dialogues with the Indians, why couldn't we talk to these people? They are fellow Muslims."
i believe this was said by a lady MNA, and it was "hindus", not "indians". so it might not be the average man-on-the-street's sentiments.
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi, can I slap you and then myself just to be sure?
Roman Bhai, it erks me too but I find solace in the fact that I am not like them. What can I say, its human nature.
Re: Believers on Believers
well wat i know is politicians of Pakistan (or its better to say of entire worldz) dont have ny religion. they make their own ""religion"" and they themselves become khalifa of it.
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi, can I slap you and then myself just to be sure?
Roman Bhai, it erks me too but I find solace in the fact that I am not like them. What can I say, its human nature.
Perhaps finding solace in feeling different from others is also human nature ahmadjee. That feeling may not always be justified though.
Perhaps you dont associate as strongly with the "believer" or "pakistani" identity. Try thinking of an identity you do strongly associate with, wouldnt you be more concerned/motivated/aggrieved when loss happens to someone sharing that identity (family/religion/locality/neighbourhood/whatever)?
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi Jaan, you are not getting the point.
I felt more sad when Katrina happened if compared to 9/11 because what I saw on TV were the streets I have been on. And probably more so at 9/11 than at 7/7 and oh yeah Spain had some bombings too. I felt the Pakistan Earth Quake more than Indian Tsunami probably for the same reason some Jews feel their genocide was more tragic than the ones happening in Africa. I can argue that for the same reason, Pak army killings in the border region haven't stressed Islamabad as much as Lal Masjid.
No matter how much of a human nature it may be, it doesn't make it right. And the first step is to acknowledge that.
Re: Believers on Believers
^^ yep. it depends on which lineage u want to protect
as the old arab saying goes : Me against my brothers, me and my brothers against my cousins, me and my cousins against the world.
sheesh it stops there?
me and the world against other species
me and all life form on earth against other planets.
me and other planets against other solar systems
me and other solar systems versus everyone else in teh galaxy
me and the galaxy versus the universe
me and the universe versus god
me getting the **** kicked out of me for eternity ...
Re: Believers on Believers
i believe this was said by a lady MNA, and it was "hindus", not "indians". so it might not be the average man-on-the-street's sentiments.
a lady MNA especially of the MMA variety has an intelligence level that is pretty sub par. its not cream rising to the top issue, its just that some ppls turds are plopped at the top and just never sink...ijaz ul haq is a prime example of that
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi Jaan, you are not getting the point.
I felt more sad when Katrina happened if compared to 9/11 because what I saw on TV were the streets I have been on. And probably more so at 9/11 than at 7/7 and oh yeah Spain had some bombings too. I felt the Pakistan Earth Quake more than Indian Tsunami probably for the same reason some Jews feel their genocide was more tragic than the ones happening in Africa. I can argue that for the same reason, Pak army killings in the border region haven't stressed Islamabad as much as Lal Masjid.
No matter how much of a human nature it may be, it doesn't make it right. And the first step is to acknowledge that.
Yes Im not getting the point.. on the one hand you are finding solace that you are not like them, on the other you feel you do the same thing for things like Katrina and Pakistan Earthquake.
But supposing it is human nature to feel one's own tragedy strongly compared to others, I dont agree that it is wrong. If you start making decisions that affect other people's lives based on the assumption that their lives have less value, then it would be wrong. Feeling more for what you have attachments to is just an expression of your emotions, which may be irrelevant in an objective analysis, but you arent really a Turing Machine.
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi, read the quotes in the very first post and then tell me if they reflect
"it is human nature to feel one's own tragedy strongly compared to others"
or do they reflect the feeling
"that their lives have less value"
or both?
Do you think one feeling stems the other?
Re: Believers on Believers
But supposing it is human nature to feel one's own tragedy strongly compared to others, I dont agree that it is wrong
ravage, your problem has always been that you take a general broad principle and apply it on a specific situation. you're naive at best.
the core of the issue is the underlying bigotry and undermining sentiments of these people. by saying that it's sad that muslims are doing this to muslim they are actually diverting attention from what's at the heart of this conflict which got nothing to do with being muslim or not. it got to do with a rebelious upheavel (reminds me of Waco, Texas incident as a matter of fact) and general law and order situation. so not counting for what it was and labeling it as murder of muslim by a muslim is NOT friggin' human nature, it's simply stupidity and ignorance. It's the inability of the people to look at what it is and then associate it with some kinda religious stance is what's stupid.
it's like saying for someone who's going to be hanged next day for murder that how tragic it is that a muslim is going to be hanged by a muslim ruler. of course the ukp will be hanged for what he did...it got nothing to do with his religion and anyone feeling sorry will be a fool.
Re: Believers on Believers
what can i say…it seems to be an arab’s fate these days!
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi, read the quotes in the very first post and then tell me if they reflect
"it is human nature to feel one's own tragedy strongly compared to others"
or do they reflect the feeling
"that their lives have less value"
or both?
Do you think one feeling stems the other?
If we speak of value, and if value is the extent to which I care for someone's life and feel their loss, then we all attribute different value to the lives of different people depending on how close we are to them/their ethnicity/their city/their country etc etc, whereas from an objective/non-human perspective all humans have the same value.
It is immoral when you impact others adversely based on the fact that you dont care for their well being as much as you care for the well being of your own.
Perhaps both of us are wearing tinted lenses, but I dont see a reason for supposing that that is the case for the quotes you posted except for the first one.
Substitute the word "Muslim" with something you and I both would strongly identify with. Say brother. so "it is such a great tragedy. Muslims have killed Muslims - what could be worse?", becomes "it is such a great tragedy. Brothers have killed Brothers- what could be worse?". Do you feel saying that would be immoral?
Re: Believers on Believers
But supposing it is human nature to feel one's own tragedy strongly compared to others, I dont agree that it is wrong
ravage, your problem has always been that you take a general broad principle and apply it on a specific situation. you're naive at best.
the core of the issue is the underlying bigotry and undermining sentiments of these people. by saying that it's sad that muslims are doing this to muslim they are actually diverting attention from what's at the heart of this conflict which got nothing to do with being muslim or not. it got to do with a rebelious upheavel (reminds me of Waco, Texas incident as a matter of fact) and general law and order situation. so not counting for what it was and labeling it as murder of muslim by a muslim is NOT friggin' human nature, it's simply stupidity and ignorance. It's the inability of the people to look at what it is and then associate it with some kinda religious stance is what's stupid.
it's like saying for someone who's going to be hanged next day for murder that how tragic it is that a muslim is going to be hanged by a muslim ruler. of course the ukp will be hanged for what he did...it got nothing to do with his religion and anyone feeling sorry will be a fool.
Tell me, do you feel there is nobody who feels that what happened in Waco Texas and other religious fanatical/brainwashing cults (Georgetown for example) was a tragedy? And if you go so far as to say that it is a tragedy, then why shouldnt people identify both the Army and the Lal Masjid as Muslims, if that is a strong identity for them?
Its one thing to consider these people misguided and ignorant, another to dehumanize them to an extent that we dont feel the pain of the many parents who's kids got killed/maimed or are still missing. If you can switch your TV on, you would see parents hurrying to the grave yard to see if they can identify their children before the bodies are all deposited into a mass grave. I have supported the Army's operation against Lal Masjid but not identifying with these people too as my own is not something that I can do.
If you strongly believe in your religious identity, (and it is stupid to say that you can believe strongly in a nationalistic or cultural or racial identity but not religious identity), then these people who got killed were still Muslims and Pakistanies. If the comparison of all of them to a murderer on death row was appropriate then the thousands who managed to escape being killed would have been executed too. Or are you sorry they werent killed too?
While commenting on the political situation and who was right and who was wrong and the religious correctness of either group you cant say that any other comment is diversionary. It is completely fair to say that the lal masjid mullas were a bunch of aholes and in the same breath say that any kind of bloodshed in our country at the hands of each other, is extremely tragic.
Re: Believers on Believers
Ravi, weather you acknowledge it or not, there is an underlying bigotry in those comments I quoted or it could be my tainted glasses.
Yeah, the second one can be given the benefit of doubt as its more of a cliche, even if I believe that killing a stranger is no better than killing a brother. "whosoever killed a person - ...]- it shall be as if he killed all mankind"
Re: Believers on Believers
so you give benefit of the doubt to 1 out of 3, i give it to 2 out of 3 (to perform my brother replacement on statement 3, "if you can talk to Saleem Ghunda for so long without clonking him over the head, why cant you talk to your own brother?")
we're almost there if you give this guy a break
Re: Believers on Believers
that is the way of the world, in an ideal world every one should be equal but that is not the case. not in the recent incident nor in the recent wars (entire afghanistan paid for 9/11), it has always been the selfish side of love. unlikely it would change.