Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

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Re: Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

You mentioned Quran ... so please read my post (past post and I am repeating in this post too) to know why what is written in Ayah you mentioned could not be referring to biological father of Ibrahim (AS), but referring to carer and father figure of Ibrahim (AS).

Anyhow, you also quoted hadith to prove that Prophet (SAW) ancestors were polytheists.

I also mentioned few hadith in my earlier posts that confirms all ancestors of prophet (SAW) were believers and amongst best creation of their time.

As far as Muslims are concerned, all such and similar hadiths that tries to prove that any of Prophet (SAW) ancestors were ‘Mushriks’ are fabricated by Munafaqeens who may be calling themselves Muslims but in their heart had ‘bugz’ with prophet (SAW) and wanted to demean and degrade Prophet (SAW) blood line and family tree (reason: Ayah 26:119).

In my past post, I also mentioned ayah (26:219) from Quran to confirm that ancestors of prophet (SAW) were all believers

[If what Ayah 26:219 says is accepted, what all believing Muslims accept, then we can understand why all hadiths contrary to this ayah (as Muslims understand) is considered fabricated].

As for person (Azar) mentioned as father of Ibrahim (AS), we (Muslims) believe that he was not biological father of Ibrahim (AS) … and reason is ayah 26:219.

Obviously, one can argue that since Azar is mentioned in Quran as father of Ibrahim (AS), he was somehow, father of Ibrahim (AS). Anyhow, one cannot deny the fact that from ayah in Quran, one cannot be certain that Azar was biological father of Ibrahim (AS) or was carer and father figure to Ibrahim (AS).

Since ayah 26:219 is clear that Prophet (SAW) moved amongst those who prostrate themselves [Prophet (SAW) ancestors were all believers], and since father of Ibrahim (AS) was also one of Prophet (SAW) ancestor, then knowing that Azar was Mushrik, it becomes clear that Azar was not biological father of Ibrahim (AS) but was carer and father figure to Ibrahim (AS).

26: 215 … And lower thy wing to the Believers who follow thee.
26: 216 … Then if they disobey thee, say: "I am free (of responsibility) for what ye do!"
26: 217 … And put thy trust on the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,-
26: 218 … Who seeth thee standing forth (in prayer),
26: 219 … And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,
26: 220 … For it is He Who heareth and knoweth all things.

Looking into ayahs, what we get is:

Ayah 26:215 … Talks about how prophet (SAW) should treat believers.
Ayah 26:216 … Tells Prophet (SAW) to free himself from believers if they disobey.

Ayah 26:217 …. Tells Prophet (SAW) that … if Prophet (SAW) would free himself of believers (who if start disobeying) then Prophet (SAW) would not be alone, rather, Allah is there and Prophet (SAW) should trust Allah.

Then Ayahs 26:218-220 tells Prophet (SAW) why he should trust Allah … and that is:

218: Allah sees Prophet (SAW) standing forth in prayers.
219: Allah has seen Prophet (SAW) movement (from one generation to next) amongst those who prostrate themselves (were believers)
220: And that Allah hears and knows everything.

Obviously, above ayahs are sent addressing to Prophet (SAW), but fact is that, these ayahs are message for believers, and one of the message is that, even if Prophet (SAW) free himself from all believers, Prophet (SAW) movement (Passing from one generation to next) was amongst those who were believers.

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Re: Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

Peace brother Sa1eem,

Plz pardon me it was my bad that I didn’t understood your post and also on selection of poor wordings by me. Allow me to rephrase my wording again. By saying portion of one ayah, I meant a part of it that “when it is clear that a person is polytheist and it is not allowed to ask forgiveness”. However, you wrote (purple text, underlined as conditional on second part.

I think condition comes when there is “if” used but nowhere in this verse “if” or something like protasis used/said. Therefore, it is not appropriate saying that the first portion of the ayah is conditional on second part.

Even if we agree on what you wrote still we don’t know whether a ‘polytheist’ before few seconds of his/her death, accepted Islam or not, unless he/she openly (loudly declared and heard by those who were present), otherwise we shouldn’t go against the verse.

Lastly, you are talking about beyond. By saying beyond I meant future and Almighty Allah knows about future, we don’t and we must act by seeing what is happened now, I mean in present.

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Re: Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

^^^ Brother ... not just if, there are many words that can make earlier part of a sentence conditional. In the ayah, the word used is 'after' (I think, the word in Arabic is 'baad'). look at the translation.

9:113 ... It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.

or ... (A) after (B)

In above sentence ... 'A' is only applicable 'after B' ... and not 'before B' ... so 'A' is conditional on 'B' happening (or knowing).

Since in above ayah 'B' is knowing about someone's faith at the time of his death or later (as a person can only become companion of fire after death), for people like you and me, that 'after' is unlikely to get fulfilled.

[Though praying for someone is a prerogative of a person, I am just talking about condition that can stops a person praying ... ]

[quote]
Lastly, you are talking about beyond. By saying beyond I meant future and Almighty Allah knows about future, we don't and we must act by seeing what is happened now, I mean in present.
[/quote]

When it comes to determining faith of other person ... seeing, believing, assuming, perceiving etc do not apply. Confession ... or ... having best guman (expectation) about that person, applies.

Actually, it is this belief (determining faith of someone on what one see, believe, assume or perceive) that has lead and would lead many to hell. Such belief is not belief on Allah but belief on oneself when determining faith of others ... that is belief on what one sees, one believes, one assumes, one perceives ... and not what faith other person have or what faith other person have in front of Allah.

This belief is tool of Iblees (Shaitan), who uses it on human to become unbeliever and reach hell. It is this belief of Kharjees and Wahabis who judge faith of others on what they perceive (what they see and assume to be true), rather on confession of other person or having best guman (expectation) about other person, that would lead them to hell.

As for Muslims, when judging other person faith, relying on what we see, believe, assume or perceive, is against Islam. Islamic belief is to accept other person's confession, or to have best 'guman' (expectation) about other person's faith.

That means, believe the confession of other person's faith, or when facing silence (or unknown situation), guman should be what one thinks is the best about faith of other person.

[When determining the faith a dead close relative or having guman regarding his faith (hoping that dying person may have died as believer), even when an undetermined stage is present (stage when he may have believed but one do not know and can only hope), I think it is 'curse of Iblees' not to have best guman for that person, especially when person is close relative].

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Re: Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

Peace brother Sa1eem,

(1) If a person died unrepentant after Islam was preached to him,
(2) If a person actively resisted or opposed the Faith to the last, and
(3) If the person praying knows that on account of deliberate contumacy the deceased may be said to have had the doors of mercy closed to him. How is to be know?

The knowledge must come from special commands as declared by the Holy Prophet PBUH in his lifetime regarding individuals. If you read the very next verse i.e., 9:114 “And Abraham prayed for his father’s forgiveness only because of a promise he had made to him. But when it became clear to him that he was an enemy to Allah, he dissociated himself from him: for Abraham was most tender-hearted, forbearing.” clearly states that the Prophet Ibrahim a.s., dissociated himself from his father. And the special commands (source of hadith) is already quoted earlier.

Brother, if anyone from my kin associate any deity beside Almighty Allah then he/she is polytheist i.e., disbeliever unless if he/she repents during his lifetime, otherwise we shouldn’t go opposite to what Almighty Allah ordered in that verse. Also Almighty Allah says in the next verse i.e., 9:115: “And Allah will not mislead a people after He hath guided them, in order that He may make clear to them what to fear (and avoid)- for Allah hath knowledge of all things.”

Almighty Allah knows best.

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Re: Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

^^^ Brother, if you had read and understood my posts you would not have asked question or written what you wrote in above post, as I have already answered each and every thing you are asking in my previous posts.

No one is saying that you should pray for forgiveness of someone you think died as 'Mushrik' as that is your right (so you should not be concerned) ... but we are talking about validity of praying for forgiveness when someone is close ... and excuse for praying.

Even though it is surprising that you did not understood what I have written, I will try to clear it again … referring to your above post.

You are talking about a person, a relative, who died (obviously hypothetical situation, still) … and claiming that he was unrepentant even when Islam was presented and preached to him. He died actively resisting and opposing Islam until his last moment. The person praying knows on account of consistant and stubborn refusal by person who died, that the desceased may have died as unbeliever and doors of mercy was closed on him.

*

Now tell me (or at least think), whatever you claimed, how the ‘person praying’ knows with certainty (clearly) that the person who died did not repented in heart to Allah at last moment of his death, and thus died as unbeliever?

Regardless of his actively resisting and opposing the faith, how the person praying knows that he did not accepted the faith in his heart at last minute before his death?

Most ridiculous statement is that person praying ‘knows’ … Knows, but how?

Is the one praying consider that he is Allah so he knows every bit of what is in heart of the person who died, or knows that the person died has surely did not repented and accepted Islam because the person praying gets knowledge directly from Allah?

You might say that it is unlikely that the person repented, and remote possibility that he did, still no one can say for certain that person repented or not, as even if there is 0.0001 percent possibility (or even lower), we cannot say that certainty is there.

As Muslim, we believe that what is in the heart of a person only Allah knows, and for us that is unknown. While dead person was alive, we can only consider that person unbeliever because he must be confessing that he does not believe. But after death, we cannot consider him unbeliever with certainty (in clear way), because we are not Allah, neither we get wahi (we are not prophet), nor we have any means to know that the person has accepted the belief or not before death (that could be last moment in dead person life or at anytime). Not knowing about reality clearly, we can assume (make guman) that the person may have repented and believed before death (even if that may represent 0.0001 percent or lower chance), leaving rest on Allah.

I hope what I wrote above (as Muslim) would be clear to you … and if not, please read it again carefully.

As for the ayahs you quoted (9: 113, 114 and 115) … few things are clearly mentioned there.

One: Ayah talk about a person (Azar) who Muslim believe was not biological father, but father like figure for Ibrahim (AS) … hence is mentioned in ayah as father.

Second: Ibrahim (AS) was prophet, so he use to get wahi, and that is how he knew that Azar died as unbeliever, hence ayah 9:113 (after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire) applies on Ibrahim (AS) due to Ibrahim (AS) getting wahi, but since we are neither Alalh, neither Prophet of Allah who gets wahi, neither have company of prophet who can tell us, neither saint who may get Ilham, we cannot make judgment that the person who died surely died as Mushrik.

Ayah 9:114 and 115 … also talks about same thing, that … Ibrahim (AS) disassociated himself from praying for forgiveness of Azar once it became clear to him that he died unbeliever … and obviously it became clear to Ibrahim (AS) because of Wahi from Allah, else he could not have had such knowledge … that is also told to us Muslims in ayah 9:115 that Allah guided Ibrahim (AS) and made it clear to him (about Azar).

Obviously, if the person who died has no relation with us then we can ignore such person, but if that person is related to us (hypothetical situation) than we can assume (can have guman) that is best for the dead person ... and one of the assumption could be that he may have died as believer (we cannot be certain of anything, but hope could be there), so we can pray (assumption or not knowing with certainty is excuse).

Just look at Ayahs in sequence:

Ayah 9:113 … It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.

It is not right to pray for people who are polytheists even if they are kin … But when not to pray for them? … Is there condition?

After … it is clear that they are companions of fire.

Ayah 9:114 … And Abraham prayed for his father's forgiveness only because of a promise he had made to him. But when it became clear to him that he was an enemy to Allah, he dissociated himself from him: for Abraham was most tender-hearted, forbearing.

Story of Ibrahim (AS) … that Ibraim (AS) prayed for forgiveness of his father (Azar … who we Muslim consider was father like figure to Ibrahim (AS), hence mentioned as father).

So, why Ibrahim (AS) stopped praying and dissociated himself from Azar?

When it became clear to Ibrahim (AS) that Azar was enemy of Allah.

How it became clear, next ayah tells that ... it is Allah who made it clear to Ibrahim (AS) and one way to make clear something to prophet (AS) is through wahi (or ilham or dream or whatever)

Ayah 9:115 … And Allah will not mislead a people after He hath guided them, in order that He may make clear to them what to fear (and avoid)- for Allah hath knowledge of all things.
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Re: Believer Ask Forgiveness Of Non-Believer (Polytheist)

Peace brother Sa1eem,

I read your post by paying full attention and I understood what you are trying to say here. However, I still unable to grasp that maybe or maybe not the person at his/her very last moment, repented before dying. This verse doesn't predict such and your explanation doesn't make sense to me.

For example: "It is not fit to a person to name a newborn as "Nasir", after it is clear to him that the newborn is 'female'". But in case if a child die because of premature delivery, will you going to name her (the child) as 'male', even though all medical statement proves that the child was female?

By giving the above example what I'm trying to say here that it is said in Holy Qur'an, after it is clear that the deceased was polytheist we shall not pray for his/her forgiveness. Unless the deceased declared openly same as when the deceased was doing 'shirk openly and repented before his/her death.