Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Salam alaikum

Sheraz wrote:

*gupguppy..give it a rest..let the learned guppies discuss this topic..go read a few books..increase ur knowledge and then come back and discuss stuff in religion forum *

Such arrogance :(

Then gupguppy wrote:

^ hey, at least i've actually seen some of the books you kids pretend to quote from...

More arrogance ! :(

Can't we all talk in a civil manner?

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Ibn Sadique wrote:

**All the above relate to history and historical incidents have been recorded very subjectively with a lot of false narrations thrown in to enhance the stance of biased parties and nothing that occurred in the above incidents will add or take away from Islam as Islam was complete on the revelation to the following verse.

"Al yawma akmaltu lakum dinakam wa atmamtu alaikam ni'mati wa raditu' lakumul islama dinan''," which means "Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favour to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion." (5:3)**

Interesting that you bring this up. The verse you mention came down, by a lot of accounts, on the day of Ghadeer Khumm, when the Prophet (s) said for Ali: "For whomsoever I am master, 'Ali is his master". This, in fact, was the completion of religion. It is no surprise then to find a narration in al-Haakim's Mustadrak volume 3, page 371:

**We were with Ali on the day of al-Jamal when he sent word to Talha b.Ubaydallah: Come and meet me! Talha came to him and he said: "I adjure you by Allah, did you hear the Messenger of Allah say: "Of whomsoever I am master, `Ali is his master. O Allah, befriend the one who befriends him and be at enmity with one who is at enmity with him?"

He said: "Yes." He said: "Then why do you fight against me?"

He said: "I do not remember." He (the narrator) said: Then Talha departed.**

So I guess it is the question posed by 'Ali that awaits an answer !

Smilies make it FUn......
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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

^
i guess only he can answer the question who fought against Ali (ra)....
me and u really can only play a guessing game, nothing more....

it was the same when Uthman (ra) recalled for the people surrounding his house all what the Prophet (saw) had said in praise of Uthman (ra) and they acknowledged that verily all those praises and merits had been attributed to Uthman (ra) by the Prophet (saw) himself....
but they still did the wretched deed that they had come for....

me and u can also not tell why a man of such piety as Uthman (ra) wud be assassinated....
this was the same Uthman (ra) for whose life the muslims, the best of them, had made a baya't on the hands of the Prophet (saw) to fight until they avenge his death....
and Allah had approved of the baya in the Quran saying that Allah's hand is on their hands....
why were the sahaba not present to save him????
we cant say, we just dont have the right accounts of all that happened....

so better not invent stories from our own selves....

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

I am going to use the same expression as brother armughal

"that was very nicely put brother…

jazak Allah khayr for the effort to put in such a good reply"

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

armughal wrote:

i guess only he can answer the question who fought against Ali (ra)....
me and u really can only play a guessing game, nothing more....

Fair enough, thank you for your response.

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

1-what will we establish after answering those questions

2-Agar ALLAH ko manzoor hota to hum uss jang main hotay---jo cheez hum say directly related hi nahin hay uss kay baray main kahay ko fikar kertay ho bachoon

3-BAshir bhai---why dont you post with your original nick.....

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

bao bihari wrote:

3-BAshir bhai---why dont you post with your original nick.....

I didn't realise I was meant to have another nick on this forum. What is my "original nick" ?

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Sorry to disagree with you. It’s only the Shia that say the verse 5:3 “Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favour to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion.”] was revealed at Ghadeer Khum to confirm Imamate of Hazrat Ali (ra).

Overwhelming scholars hold the view that this verse was revealed at Hujat Al-Wada year 10, some 90 days before the death of the prophet at the plains of Arafat.

Others scholars hold the view that the following ayah (2:281) was the last one to be revealed just 9 days before the Prophet (saw) passed away.

*“And fear the day when ye shall be brought back to God. Then every soul shall What it earned and none shall be dealt with unjustly” * (2:281)

This verse was revealed 9 days before the prophet (PBUH) passed away.

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/Ch1S4s7.htm

*Contrary to the widely used opinion that the verse “…This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed my Favours upon you and have chosen Islam as your religion…” (5:3) was the last of the revelations. As a matter of fact this verses 5:3 was revealed at Hujat Al-Wada year 10, some 90 days before the death of the prophet (PBUH). *

Check the following links as well.

http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Denffer_uaq/Ch1S4.htm

http://www.sunnah.org/sources/ulumquran/chapter1.htm

Here Hazrat Ali (ra) is not pitching for Khilafat or Imamate, but emphasis should be on O Allah, befriend the one who befriends him and be at enmity with one who is at enmity with him.

Read the Nahjul Balagha – No where in this famous book has Hazrat Ali (ra) laid any claim on Imamate ordained by Allah (swt).

Concept of Imamate is not supported by any ayah from the Quran.

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

^ also, it has been said that the verse "This day I have perfected your religion..." was the last in one respect as no verse regarding halal/haram or shariah rulings was revealed after it - hence the deen had been completed in that regard, even though the verse "And fear the day when ye shall be brought back to God..." was chronologically the last (okay, just noticed that one of the above links already said something to this effect).

and may i add my thanks for your earlier reply, Ibn Sadique... very well put

i think it was khalifa Umar ibn Abdul Aziz who when asked about the fighting that took place in the time of Ali/Muawiya replied: "Allah saved us from entering our swords into the fighting, so let us likewise withhold our tongues from entering into the matter" (or words to that effect)

Just one of those days/months/weeks
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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

no its not fair; because atleast we know that answer which the holy Prophet told us about Ali(AS) and the one who fight against him.

our guessing game stops where we find something very clear from him(PBUH&HF)

no more, and no less then that too.. am i right

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Jazakalleh brethran! please keep posting. am bussy finishing a project right now and will join you tomorrow night (CET) Inshahallah.

And guys! please stay on topic. :) thx

I'm Back I'm Back
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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Ibn Sadique wrote:

*Sorry to disagree with you. It’s only the Shia that say the verse 5:3 "Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favour to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion."] was revealed at Ghadeer Khum to confirm Imamate of Hazrat Ali (ra). *

Thank you for your opinion and also to gupguppy. I am quite interested in comparing the Sunni understanding of this event with the Shia. Perhaps I'll start a new topic, if that's ok.

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

I have one question to ask. Was hz bibi Ayesha doing jihad while fighting to catch the culprits behind hz usmans murderers?

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Salam alaikum

Does anyone know why the Ghadeer Khumm topic got locked !?

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

^ maybe because it conflicted with the following hadith?

Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5879:

A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in his (last) illness asked me to call Abu Bakr, her father, and her brother too, so that he might write a document, for he feared that someone else might be desirous (of succeeding him) and that some claimant may say: I have better claim to it, whereas Allah and the faithful do not substantiate the claim of anyone but that of Abu Bakr.

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 459:

Narrated Jubair bin Mutim:

A lady came to Allah's Apostle and she talked to him about something, and he gave her some order. She said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I should not find you?" He said, "If you should not find me, then go to Abu Bakr." Ibrahim bin Sa'd said, "As if she meant the death (of the Prophet)." (also Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5878)

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

^ who might write a document?

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

gupguppy wrote:

^ maybe because it conflicted with the following hadith?

You're not serious, are you? The Ghadeer Khumm riwaya was from Ibn Katheer and in any case can be quoted from a very large number of Muslim scholars. The question is really of what it means and that can't be such a shockingly horrific topic to discuss, surely! :(

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

Brother armughal

Here's the page from the Tafseer of Ibn Katheer. I have even marked the section in the margin to help you find Ibn Katheer's criticism of the incident of Ali Zain al-Abideen that you recall reading and which I cannot spot.

[thumb=H]ibnkatheerqurba6019_5104077.JPG[/thumb]

Apologies for the irrelevance to this topic but all the other ones are getting shut down!

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Re: Battle of Safeen and Camel.

I think question raised by the author of this thread have been answered in very amicable manner. Thanks for the contribution.