Basic Beliefs of Hinduism & Islam

o no. rani wants to be pitiful again. dont count on getting an answer extreme buddy. you have already been called a stalker, harraser, a moron etc. all for asking a question.

any shoodars here who would like to refute these claims made by rani. since their ancestors would know first hand information on brahmans abuse of hinduism. and how much glory they have had while living under the brahman BOOT especially before Islam introduced concepts of equality to the dark age hindutvas.

anyone brave enough to admitt to their shoodar roots?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Now that ZZ has and Rani have managed to create enough attention in the other thread, I'm also curious to know what Rani has to say on Xtreme's question.

Apparently she is busy at work...and cannot answer right away.....

We wait anxiously for her to spare some time.

Dhir man.

interesting post with all the scientific details..

I believe that old books will have such details.. as such information must have been given to previous prophets as well.

As all Muslims (I hope know) is that all prophets brought the same religion again and again. all were muslims and most of their true followers were as well.

But i think the basic difference lies in the fact that Quran does not have any untruths -scientific or otherwise- and challenges the reader to prove it otherwise.

I doubt there will be any other book which will stand the same challenge, as in time they have been altered by man.

Xtreme,

Please read the following article to understand how India went back to dark ages when Abramical religions came to India. The post is little too long but most of it is relevant to the discussion at hand. ==========================================================================================

Let the Mute Witnesses Speak

SITA RAM GOEL

The cradle of Hindu culture 1 on the eve of the Islamic invasions included what are at present the Sinkiang province of China, the Transoxiana region of Russia, the Seistan province of Iran and the sovereign states of Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Nepal and Bangladesh. The Islamic invasion commenced around 650 A.D., when a Muslim army secured a foothold in Seistan, and continued till the end of the eighteenth century, when the last Islamic crusader, Tipu Sultan, was overthrown by the British. Hordes of Arabs, Persians, Turks, and Afghans who had been successively inspired by the Theology of Islam poured in, in wave after wave, carrying fire and sword to every nook and corner of this vast area. In the process, Sinkiang, Transoxiana region, Seistan and Afghanistan became transformed into Daru'l-Islãm, where all vestiges of the earlier culture were wiped out. The same spell has engulfed the areas which were parts of India till 1947 and have since become Pakistan and Bangladesh.

We learn from literary and epigraphic sources, accounts of foreign travelers in medieval times, and modern archaeological explorations, that, on the eve of the Islamic invasion, the cradle of Hindu culture was honeycombed with temples and monasteries, in many shapes and sizes. The same sources inform us that many more temples and monasteries continued to come up in places where it was forced to retire for some time by the rallying of Hindu resistance. Hindus were great temple builders because their pantheon was prolific in Gods and Goddesses and their society rich in schools and sects, each with its own way of worship. But by the time we come to the end of the invasions, we find that almost all these Hindu places of worship had either disappeared or were left in different stages of ruination, of the sacred sites had come to be occupied by a variety Muslim monuments - Masjids and Idgãhs (mosques), dargãhs and ziãrats (shrines), mazãrs and maqbaras (tombs) madrasas and maktabs (seminaries), takiyas and qabristans (graveyards). Quite a few of the new edifices had been from the materials of those that had been deliberately demolished in order to satisfying the demands of Islamic Theology. The same materials had been used frequently in some secular structures as all — walls and gates of forts and cities, river and tank embankments, stepwells, palaces and pavilions.

Some apologists of Islam have tried to lay the blame at the door of the White Huns or Epthalites who had overrun parts of the Hindu cradle in the second half of the fifth century A D. But they count without the witness of Hiuen Tsang famous Chinese pilgrim and Buddhist savant, who traveled all over this area from 630 to 644 A.D. Starting from Karashar in Northern Sinkiang, he passed through Transoxiana Northern Afghanistan, North-West Frontier Province Kashmir, Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, North-Eastern Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Nepal, Bengal, Assam, Orissa, Mahakosal and Andhra Pradesh till he reached Tamil Nadu. On his return journey he traveled through Karnataka, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Madhya Bharat, Sindh, Southern Afghanistan and Southern Sinkiang. In most of these provinces he found in a flourishing state many Buddhist establishments consisting of vihãras (monasteries), chaityas (temples) and stupãs (topes), besides what he described as heretical (Jain) and deva (Brahmanical) temples. The wealth of architecture and sculptures he saw everywhere confirms what we learn from Hindu literary sources. Some of this wealth has been recent times from under mounds of ruins.

During the course of his pilgrimage, Hiuen Tsang stayed at as many as 95 Buddhist centers among which the more famous ones were at Kuchi, Aqsu, Tirmiz, UchTurfan, Kashagar and Khotan in Sinkiang; Balkh, Ghazni, Bamiyan, Kapisi, Lamghan, Nagarahar and Bannu in Afghanistan; Pushkalavati, Bolar and Takshasila in the North-West Frontier Province, Srinagar, Rajaori and Punch in Kashmir; Sialkot, Jalandhar and Srihind in the Punjab; Thanesar, Pehowa and Sugh in Haryana; Bairat and Bhinmal in Rajasthan; Mathura, Mahoba, Ahichchhatra, Sankisa, Kanauj, Ayodhya, Prayag, Kausambi, Sravasti, Kapilvastu, Kusinagar, Varanasi, Sarnath and Ghazipur in Uttar Pradesh; Vaishali, Pataliputra, Rajgir, Nalanda, Bodhgaya, Monghyr and Bhagalpur in Bihar; Pundravardhana, Tamralipti, Jessore and Karnasuvarna in Bengal; Puri and Jajnagar in Orissa; Nagarjunikonda and Amaravati in Andhra Pradesh; Kanchipuram in Tamil Nadu; Badami and Kalyani in Karnataka; Paithan and Devagiri in Maharashtra. Bharuch, Junagarh and Valabhi in Gujarat; Ujjain in Malwa; Mirpur-Khas and Multan in Sindh. The number of Buddhist Monasteries at the bigger ones of these centers ranged from 50 to 500 and the number of monks in residence from 1000 to 10,000. It was only in some parts of Eastern Afghanistan and the North-West Frontier Province that monasteries were in a bad shape, which can perhaps be explained by the invasion of White Huns. But so were they in Kusinagar and Kapilavastu where the White Huns are not known to have reached. On the other hand, the same invaders had ranged over Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and most of Uttar Pradesh where HiuenTsang found the monasteries in a splendid state. The white Huns had even established their rule over Kashmir where Hiuen Tsang saw 500 monasteries housing 5,000 monks. It is therefore, difficult to hold them responsible disappearance of Buddhist centers in areas where Tsang had found them flourishing. An explanation h as to be found elsewhere. In any case, the upheaval they caused over by the middle of the sixth century. Moreover, the temples and monasteries, which Hiuen Tsang saw, were only a few out of many. He had not gone into the interior of any province, confined himself to the more famous Buddhist Centers.

What was it that really happened to thousands upon thousands of temples and monasteries? Why did they disappear and/or give place to another type of monuments? How come those there architectural and sculptural fragments got built into the foundations and floors and walls and domes of the edifices which replaced them? These are crucial questions, which should have been asked by so medieval Indian history. But no historian worth his name has raised these questions squarely, not to speak of finding adequate answers to them. No systematic study of the subject has been made so far. All that we have are stray references to the demolition of a few Hindu temples, made by the more daring Hindu historians while discussing the religious policy of this or that sultan. Sir Jadunath Sarkar 2 and Professor Ram Sharma 3 have given more attention to the Islamic policy of demolishing Hindu temples and pointed an accusing finger at the theological tenets, which dictated that policy. But their treatment of the subject is brief and their enumeration of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb and the other Mughal emperors touches only the fringe of a vast holocaust caused by the Theology of Islam, all over the cradle of Hindu culture, and throughout more than thirteen hundred years, taking into account what happened in the native Muslim States carved out after the British take-over and the formation of Pakistan after Partition in 1947.

Muslim historians, in India and abroad, have written hundreds of accounts in which the progress of Islamic armies across the cradle of Hindu culture is narrated, stage by stage and period by period. A pronounced feature of these Muslim histories is a description - in smaller or greater detail but always with considerable pride - of how the Hindus were slaughtered en masse or converted by force, how hundreds of thousands of Hindu men and women and children were captured as booty and sold into slavery, how Hindu temples and monasteries were razed to the ground or burnt down, and how images of Hindu Gods and Goddesses were destroyed or desecrated. Commandments of Allah (Quran) and precedents set by the Prophet (Sunnah) are frequently cited by the authors in support of what the swordsmen and demolition squads of Islam did with extraordinary zeal, not only in the midst of war but also, and more thoroughly, after Islamic rule had been firmly established. A reference to the Theology of Islam as perfected by the orthodox Imams, leaves little doubt that the citations are without foundation

The men and women and children who were killed or captured or converted by force cannot be recalled for standing witness to what was done to them by the heroes of Islam. The apologists for Islam - the most dogged among them are some Hindu historians and politicians - have easily got away with the plea that Muslim "Court scribes" had succumbed to poetic, exaggeration in order to please their pious patrons. Their case is weakened when they cite the same sources in support of their own -speculations or when the question is asked as to Why the patrons needed stories of bloodshed and wanton destruction for feeding their piety. But they have taken in their stride tiles, doubts and questions as well.

There are, however, witnesses who are not beyond recall and who can confirm that the "court scribes" were not at all foisting fables on their readers. These are the hundreds of thousands of sculptural and architectural fragments which stand arrayed in museums and drawing rooms all over the world, or which are waiting to be picked up by public and private collectors, or which stare at us from numerous Muslim monuments. These are the thousands of Hindu temples and monasteries which either stand on the surface in a state of ruination or lie buried under the earth waiting for being brought to light by the archaeologist's spade. These are the thousands of Muslim edifices, sacred as well as secular, which occupy the sites of Hindu temples and monasteries and/or which have been constructed from materials of those monuments. All these witnesses carry unimpeachable evidence of the violence that was done to them, deliberately and by human hands.

So far no one has cared to make these witnesses speak and relate the story of how they got ruined, demolished, dislocated, dismembered, defaced, mutilated and burnt. Recent writers on Hindu architecture and sculpture - their tribe is multiplying fast, mostly for commercial reasons -ignore the ghastly wounds which these witnesses show on the very first sight, and dwell on the beauties of the limbs that have survived or escaped injury. Many a time they have to resort to their imagination for supplying what should have been there but is missing. All they seem to care for is building their own reputations as historians of Hindu art. If one draws their attention to the mutilations and disfigurements suffered by the subjects under study, one is met with a stunned silence or denounced downright as a Hindu chauvinist out to raise "demons from the past" 4 with the deliberate intention of causing "communal strife".

We, therefore, propose to present a few of these witnesses in order to show in what shape they are and what they have to say.

Delhi

Archaeological excavations during 1992-95 at Lalkot, Tomar citadel near Mehrauli before Delhi was occupied by Muhammad Ghuri in 1192, have uncovered the following antiquities in the levels of Period II (Early Sultanate):

"A number of sculptural (PI.87) and architectural fragments in stone of Rajputs period have been noticed scattered on the surface or found in the levels of Period II, either in the deposits or reused in construction of early Sultanate structures. They included a Varãha head (PI.86); ãmalakas; adhisthãna moulding; pillar bases; parts of sculptured door jambs, one with mithuna figures (PI.89); moulded and decorated architectural fragments; small sculptures showing Tirthafikara, deities, vase etc.; Nandi figure and a lion's head (PI.88) which can be connected with the story of stone lion figures at the gate of the palaces of Anang Pal Il and Iltutmish. The evidence of stone Nandi (PI.18) suggests for the first time the existence of a Siva temple in the vicinity.

"The pre-Muslim association of this structural period of early Sultanate age is evidenced by a number of scattered or reused architectural and sculptural stone fragments. Among them, the hind part of a figure of Nandi, the vãhanaof Lord Siva, reused in the foundation of wall as a rubble (PI.72), four decorated pillar bases reused in room-1 of palace complex around the circular water cistern, the figure of sãrdula (lion) and a figure of mithunas found from the debries are noteworthy which were reused in construction of the walls in early Sultanate sub-phase IA; the figure of Varãha, incarnation of Vishnu, ãmalakas, pieces of adhisthãna moulding with other architectural fragments come under, category of such pieces which were further reused in the successive phases of Sultanate period. The quarter part of a huge ãmalaka and pillar bases scattered with other pieces and around the Anang Tal area of the mound LKT-1 still retain this evidence."5

Tordi (Rajasthan)

"At Tordi there are two fine and massively built stone baolis or step wells known as the Chaur and Khari Baoris. They appear to be old Hindu structures repaired or rebuilt by Muhammadans, probably in the early or middle part of the 15th century ... In the construction of the (Khari) Baori images have been built in, noticeable amongst them being an image of Kuber on the right flanking wall of the large

Steps…" 6

Naraina (Rajasthan)

"At Naraina ... is an old pillared mosque, nine bays long and four bays deep, constructed out of old Hindu temples and standing on the east of the Gauri Shankar tank ... The mosque appears to have been built when Mujahid Khan, son of Shams Khan, took possession of Naraina in 840 A.H. or 1436 A.D... To the immediate north of the mosque is the three-arched gateway called Tripolia which is also constructed with materials from old Hindu temples ... " 7

Chatsu (Rajasthan)

"At Chatsu there is a Mohammedan tomb erected on the eastern embankment of the Golerava tank. The tomb which is known as Gurg Ali Shah's chhatri is built out of the spoils of Hindu buildings ... on the inside of the twelve-sided frieze of the chhatri is a long Persian inscription in verse, but worn out in several places. The inscription does not mention the name of any important personage known to history and all that can be made out with certainty is that the saint Gurg Ali (wolf of Ali) died a martyr on the first of Ramzan in 979 A.H. corresponding to Thursday, the 17th January, 1572 A.D." 8

Saheth-Maheth (Uttar Pradesh)

"The ruined Jain temple situated in the western portion of Maheth ... derives the name 'Sobhanãth' from Sambhavanãtha, the third Tìrthamkara, who is believed to have been born at Srãvastì ... 9

"Let us now turn our attention to the western-most part of Sobhanãath ruins. A domed edifice, apparently a Muslim tomb of the Pathãn period... 10

"These remains are raised on a platform, 30' square, built mostly of broken bricks including carved ones ... This Platform, no doubt, represents the plinth of the last Jain temple which was destroyed by the Mohammedan conquerors ... It will be seen from the plan that the enclosure of the tomb overlaps this square platform. The tomb proper stands on a mass of debris, which is probably the remains of the ruined shrine ...11

"3. Sculpture ... of buff sandstone, partly destroyed representing a Tìrthamkara seated cross-legged attitude of meditation on a throne supported by two lions couchant, placed on both sides of a wheel...

"4. Sculpture ... of buff sandstone, partly defaced representing a Tìrthamkara seated cross-legged (as above)...

"8. Sculpture ... of buff sandstone, defaced, representing a Tìrthamkara standing between two miniature figures of which that to his right is seated.

"9. Sculpture ... of buff sandstone, defaced, representing a Tìrthamkara standing under a parasol...

"12. Sculpture ... of buff sandstone, much defaced representing a male and a female figure seated side by side under a palm tree.

"13. Sculpture ... of buff sandstone, broken in four and carved with five figurines of Tìrthamkaras ... seated cross-legged in the attitude of meditation. The central figure has a Nãga hood. The sculpture evidently was the top portion of a large image slab."12

Coming to the ruins of a Buddhist monastery in the same complex, the archaeologist proceeds:

"In the 23rd cell, which I identify with the store-room, found half-buried in the floor a big earthen jar ... This must have been used for storage of corn...

"This cell is connected with a find which is certainly the most notable discovery of the season. I refer to an inscribed copperplate of Govindachandra of Kanauj ... The charter was issued from Vãrãnasì on Monday, the full moon day of Ãshadha Sam 1186, which... corresponds to the 23rd of June, 1130. The inscription records the grant of six villages to the 'Community of Buddhist friars of whom Buddhabhattaraka is the chief and foremost, residing in the great convent of the holy Jetavana,' and is of a paramount importance, in as much as it conclusively settles the identification of Maheth with the city of Srãvastì. 13

He describes as follows some of the sculptures unearthed at Srãvastì:

, S.1. Statuette in Grey stone ... of Buddha seated cross-legged in the teaching attitude on a conventional lotus. The head, breast and fore-arms as well as the sides of the sculpture are broken.

"S.2. Lower portion ... of a blue schist image of Avalokitesvara in the sportive attitude (lìlãsana) on a lotus seat.

"S.3. Image of Avalokitesvara seated in ardhaparyanka attitude on a conventional lotus... The head and left arms of the main figure are missing." 14

Sarnath (Uttar Pradesh)

The report of excavations undertaken in 1904-05 says, "the inscriptions found there extending to the twelfth century A.D, show that the connection of Sarnath with Buddhism was still remembered at that date". It continues that "the condition of the excavated ruins leaves little doubt that a violent catastrophe accompanied by willful destruction and plunder overtook the place."15 Read this report with the Muslim account that Muhammad Ghurì destroyed a thousand idol-temples when he reached Vãrãnasì after defeating Maharaja Jayachandra of Kanauj in 1193 A.D. The fragments that are listed below speak for themselves. The number given in each case is the one adopted in the report of excavation.

a. 42. Upper part of sculptured slab...

E. 8. Architectural fragment, with Buddha (?) seated cross-legged on lotus...

  1. Defaced standing Buddha hands missing.

a. 17. Buddha heads with halo.

a.8. Head and right arm of image.

E. 22. Upper part of image.

E. 14. Broken seated figure holding object in left hand

a. 11. Fragment of larger sculpture; bust, part of head, and right over arm of female chauri-bearer.

E. 25. Upper part of female figure with big earring.

E. 6. Fragment of sculpture, from top of throne (?) on left side.

n. 19. Seated figure of Buddha in bhumisparsamudrã much defaced.

n. 221. Torso, with arms of Buddha in dharmachakramudrã

n. 91. Lower part of Buddha seated cross-legged on throne. Defaced.

n. 142. Figure of Avalokitesvara in relief. Legs from knees downwards wanting.

n. 1. Relief partly defaced and upper part missing, Buddha descending from the Trayastrimsa Heaven. Head and left hand missing.

i. 50. Lower half of statue. Buddha in bhumisparsamudrã seated on lotus.

i. 17. Buddha in attitude of meditation on lotus. Head missing.

i. 46. Head of Buddha with short curls.

i. 44. Head of Avalokitesvara, with Amitãbha Buddha in' head dress.

n. 10. Fragment of three-headed figure (? Mãrìchì) of green stone.

i. 49. Standing figure of attendant from upper right of image. Half of face, feet and left hand is missing.

i. 1. Torso of male figure, ornamented.

i. 4. Female figure, with lavishly ornamented head. The legs from knees, right arm and left forearm are missing. Much defaced.

i. 105. Hand holding Lotus.

n. 172. Torso of Buddha.

n. 118. Head of Buddha, slightly defaced.

n. 16, Female figure, feet missing.

n. 163. Buddha seated. Much defaced.

K. 4. Fragment of seated Buddha in Blue Gaya stone.

K.5. Fragment of large statue, showing small Buddha seated in bhumisparsamudrã.

K. 18 Fragment of statue in best Gupta style.

J.S. 7. Figure of Kubera in niche, with halo behind head. Partly defaced.

r. 67. Upper part of male figure lavishly adorned.

r. 72. a and b. Pieces of pedestal with three Buddha in dhyanamudrã

r. 28. Part of arm, adorned with armlet and inscription in characters of 10th century, containing Buddhist creed.

B. 22. Fragment of Bodhi scene (?): two women standing on conventional rock. Head and right arm of left hand figure broken.

B. 33. Defaced sitting Buddha in dhyãnamudrã.

B. 75. Lower part of Buddha in bhumisparsamudrãseated cross-legged on lotus.

B. 40. Feet of Buddha sitting cross-legged on lotus on throne.

B. 38. Headless defaced Buddha seated cross-legged on lotus in dharmachakramudrã.

24 Headless Buddha seated cross-legged on throne dharmachakramudrã.

B. 52. Bust of Buddha in dharmachakramudrã. Head Missing.

B. 16. Standing Buddha in varadamudrã; hands and feet broken.

Y. 34. Upper part of Buddha in varadamudrã.

B. 24. Bust of standing Buddha in abhayamudrã; hand and head missing.

B. 31. Defaced standing Buddha in abhbayamudrã, Head and feet missing.

B. 48. Feet of standing Buddha with red paint.

B. 15. Lower part of Avalokitesvara seated on lotus lìlãsana.

Y. 23. Bust of figure seated in lìlãsana with trace of hallo

B. 59. Legs of figure sitting cross-legged on lotus,

B. 7. Female bust with ornaments and high headdress. Left arm and right forearm missing. 16

Vaishali (Bihar)

"In the southern section of the city the fort of Raja Bisal is by far the most important ruin ... South-west of it stands an old brick Stupa, now converted into a dargãh ... The name of t1te saint who is supposed to have been buried there was n the me as Mìrãn-jì ..." 17

Gaur and Pandua (Bengal)

"In order to erect mosques and tombs the Muhammadans pulled down all Hindu temples they could lay their hands upon for the sake of the building materials...

"The oldest and the best known building at Gaur and Pandua is the Ãdìna Masjid at Pandua built by Sikandar Shãh, the son of Ilyãs Shãh. The date of its inscription may be read as either 776 or 770, which corresponds with 1374 or 1369 A.D. The materials employed consisted largely of the spoils of Hindu temples and many of the carvings from the, temples have been used as facings of doors, arches and pillars..."18

Devikot (Bengal)

"The ancient city of Kotivarsha, which was the seat of a district (vishaya) under Pundravardhana province (bhukti) at the time of the Guptas...is now represented by extensive in mounds of Bangarh or Ban Rajar Garh ... The older site was in continuous occupation till the invasion of the Muhammadans in the thirteenth century to whom it was known as Devikot or Devikot. It possesses Muhammadan records ranging from the thirteenth to the sixteenth century ... 19

"The Rajbari mound at the South-east corner is one of the highest mounds at Bangarh and must contain some important remains. The dargãh of Sultan Pir is a Muhammadan shrine built on the site of an old Hindu temple of which four granite pillars ... are still standing in the center of the enclosure, the door jambs having been used in the construction of the gateway.

"The dargãh of Shah Ata on the north bank of the Dhaldighi tank is another building built on the ruins of an older Hindu or Buddhist structure ... The female figure on the lintels of the doorway now fixed in the east wall of the dargãh appears to be Tara, from which it would appear that the temple destroyed was Buddhist...20

Tribeni (Bengal)

"The principal object of interest at Tribeni is the dargãh of Zafar Khãn Ghãzì. The chronology of this ruler may be deduced from the two inscriptions of which one has fitted into the plinth of his tomb, while the other is inside the small mosque to the west of the tomb. Both refer to him and the first tells us that he built the mosque close which dates from A.D. 1298; while the second records the erection by him of a Madrasah or college in the time of Shamsuddiìn Fìroz Shãh and bears a date corresponding to the 28[th] April, 1313 A.D. It was he who conquered the Hindu Raja of Panduah and introduced Islam into this part of Lower Bengal…The tomb is built out of the spoils taken from Hindu Temples… 21

"The eastern portion of the tomb was formerly a mandapa of an earlier Krishna temple which stood on the same spot, a sculptures on the inner walls represent scenes from the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, with descriptive titles inscribed in proto-Bengali characters ... The other frieze.. Shows Vishnu with Lakshmi and Sarasvati in the center, within attendants, and five avatarasof Vishnu on bot flanks ... Further clearance work has been executed during the year 1932-33 and among the sculptures discovered year are twelve figures of the Sun God, again in the 12[th] century style and evidently reused by the when the Hindu temple was converted into a structure...." 22

Mandu (Madhya Pradesh)

"Mãndu became the capital of the Muhammad Sultans of Mãlvã who set about building themselves places and mosques, first with material pilfered from Hindu temples (already for the most part desecrated and ruined by the iconoclastic fury of their earlier co-religionists), and afterwards with their own quarried material. Thus nearly all the splendid shrines of the Paramaras of Malva have disappeared save what we find utilized in the ruined mosques and tombs…23

The date of the construction of the Hindola Mahall cannot be fixed with exactitude ... There can, however, be no doubt that it is one of the earliest of the Muhammadan buildings in Mãndû. From its outward appearance there is no sign of Hindu workmanship but the repairs, that have been going on for the past one year, have brought to light a very large number of stones used in the structure, which appear, to have been taken from some pre-existing Hindu temple. The facing stones, which have been most accurately and smoothly cut on their outer surfaces, bear in very many cases on their inner sides the undefaced images of Hindu gods, or patterns of purely Hindu design, while pieces of Hindu carving and broken parts of images are found indiscriminately mixed with the rubble, of which the core of the walls is made." 24

Dhar (Madhya Pradesh)

"...The mosque itself from local tradition and from the numerous indications and inscriptions found within it to have been built on the site of, and to a large extent out of materials taken from, a Hindu Temple, known to the inhabitants as Rãjã Bhoja's school. The inference was derived sometime back from the existence of a Sanskrit alphabet and some Sanskrit grammatical forms inscribed in serpentine diagrams on two of the pillar bases in the large prayer chamber and from certain Sanskrit inscriptions on the black stone slabs embedded in the floor of the prayer chamber, and on the reverse face of the side walls of the mihrab. 25

"The Lat Masjid built in A.D. 1405, by Dilawar Khãn, the founder of the Muhammadan kingdom of Malva.. is of considerable interest not only on account of the Iron Lat which lied outside it ... but also because it is a good specimen of the use made by the Muhammadan conquerors of the materials of the Hindu temples which they destroyed..."26

Vijayanagar (Karnataka)

"During the construction of the new road – some mounds which evidently marked the remains of destroyed buildings, were dug into, and in one of them were disclosed the foundations of a rectangular building with elaborately carved base. Among the debris were lumps of charcoal and calcined iron, probably the remains of the materials used by the Muhammadans in the destruction of the building. The stones bear extensive signs of having been exposed to the action of fire. That the fire historical evidence destroyed the chief buildings shows, and many buildings, notably the Vithalaswamin temple, still bear signs, in their cracked and fractured stone work, of the catastrophe, which overlook them. 27

"The most important temple at Vijayanagar from an architectural point of view, is the Vithalaswamin temple. It stands in the eastern limits of the ruins, near the bank of the Tungabhadra river, and shows in its later structures the extreme limit in floral magnificence to which the Dravidan style advanced ... This building had evidently attracted the special attention of the Muhammadan invaders in their efforts to destroy the buildings of the city, of which this was no doubt one of the most important, for though many of the other temples show traces of the action of fire, in none of them are the effects so marked as in this. It’s massive construction, however, resisted all the efforts that were made to bring it down and the only visible results of their iconoclastic fury are the cracked beams and pillars, some of the later being so flaked as to make one marvel that they are yet able to bear the immense weight of the stone entablature and roof above... "28

Bijapur (Karnataka)

"No ancient Hindu or Jain buildings have survived at Bijapur and the only evidence of their former existence is supplied by two or three mosques, viz., Mosque No.294, situated in the compound of the Collector's bungalow, Karimud-d-din Mosque and a third and smaller mosque on the way to the Mangoli Gate, which are all adaptations or reerections of materials obtained from temples. These mosques are the earliest Muhammadan structures and one of them, i.e., the one constructed by Karimud-d-din, must according to a Persian and Nagari inscription engraved upon its pillars, have been erected in the year 1402 Saka=A.D. 1324, soon after Malik Kafur's conquest of the Deccan."29

Badami (Karnataka)

"Three stone lintels bearing bas-reliefs were discovered in course of the clearance at the second gateway of the Hill Fort to the north of the Bhutnath tank at Badami ... These originally belonged to a temple which is now in ruins and were re-used at a later period in the construction of the plinth of guardroom on the fort.

"The bas-reliefs represent scenes from the early life of KRISHNA and may be compared with similar ones in the BADAMI CAVES..." 30

The Pattern of Destruction

The Theology of Islam divides human history into two periods - the Jahiliyya or the age of ignorance which preceded Allah's first revelation to Prophet Muhammad, and the age of enlightenment (Ilm) which succeeded that even, It follows that every human creation which existed in the, "age of ignorance" has to be converted to its Islamic version or destroyed. The logic applies to pre-Islamic buildings, as much to pre-Islamic ways of worship, mores and manners dress and decor, personal and places names. This is too large a subject to be dealt with at present. What concerns us here is the fate of temples and monasteries that existed on the eve of the Islamic invasion and that came up in the course of its advance.

What happened to many "abodes of the infidels" is best described by a historian of Vijayanagar in the wake of Islamic victory in 1565 A.D. at the Battle of Talikota. "The third day' he writes, "saw the beginning of the end. The victorious Musulmans had halted on the field of battle for rest and, refreshment, but now they had reached the capital, and from, that time forward for a space of five months Vijayanagar knew no rest. The enemy had come to destroy and the carried out their object relentlessly. They slaughtered the people without mercy; broke down the temples and places, and wreaked such savage vengeance on the abode of the kings, that, with the exception of a few great stone-built temples and walls, nothing now remains hut a heap of ruins to mark the spot where once stately buildings stood. They demolished the statues and even succeeded in breaking the limbs of the huge Narsimha monolith. Nothing seemed to escape them. They broke up the pavilions standing on huge platform from which the kings used to watch festivals, and overthrew all the carved work. They lit huge fires in the magnificently decorated buildings forming the temple of Vitthalswamin near the river, and smashed its exquisite stone sculptures. With fire and sword, with crowbars and axes, they carried on day after day their work of destruction. Never perhaps in the history of the world has such havoc been wrough so suddenly, on so splendid a city: teeming with a wealthy and industrious population in the full plenitude of prosperity one day, and on the next seized, pillaged, and reduced to ruins, amid scenes of savage massacre and horrors beggaring description ... 31

The Muslim victors did not get time to raise their own structures from the ruins of Vijayanagar, partly because the, Hindu Raja succeeded in regrouping his forces and reoccupying his capital and partly because they did not have the requisite Muslim population to settle in that large city; another invader, the Portuguese, had taken control of the Arabian Sea and blocked the flow of fresh recruits from Muslim countries in the Middle East. Alexander Cunningham describes what would have happened otherwise in his report on Mahoba (Uttar Pradesh). "As Mahoba was," he writes, "for some time the headquarters of the early Muhammadan Governors, we could hardly expect to find that any Hindu buildings had escaped their furious bigotry, or their equally destructive cupidity. When the destruction of a Hindu temple furnished the destroyer with the ready means of building a house for himself on earth, as well as in heaven, it is perhaps wonderful that so many temples should still be standing in different parts of the country. It must be admitted, however, that in none of the cities which the early Muhammadans occupied permanently, have they left a single temple standing, save this solitary temple at Mahoba, which doubtless owed its preservation solely to its secure Position amid the deep waters of the Madan-Sagar. In Delhi, and Mathura, in Banaras and Jonpur, in Narwar and Ajmer, every single temple was destroyed by their bigotry, but thanks to their cupidity, most of the beautiful Hindu were preserved, and many of them, perhaps, on original positions, to form new colonnades for the and tombs of the conquerors. In Mahoba all the other telpi, were utterly destroyed and the only Hindu building now standing is part of the palace of Parmal, or Paramarddi Deva, on the hill-fort, which has been converted into a masjid. In 1843, I found an inscription of Paramarddi Deva built upside down in the wall of the fort just outside this masjid. It is dated in S. 1240, or A.D. 1183, only one year before-the capture of Mahoba by Prithvi-Raj Chohan of Delhi. In the dargãh of Pir Mubarak Shãh, and the adjacent Musalman burial-ground, I counted 310 Hindu pillars of granite. I found a black stone bull lying beside the road, and the argha of a lingam fixed as a waterspout in the terrace of the dargãh. These last must have belonged to a temple of Siva, which was probably built in the reign of Kirtti Varmma, between 1065 and 1085 A.D., as I discovered an inscription of that prince built into the wall of one of the tombs." 32

Many other ancient cities and towns suffered the same tragic transformation. Bukhara, Samarkand, Balkh, Kabul. Ghazni, Srinagar, Peshawar, Lahore, Multan, Patan, Ajnler. Delhi, Agra, Dhar, Mandu, Budaun, Kanauj, Biharshaff Patna, Lakhnauti, Ellichpur, Daulatabad, Gulbarga, Bidar, Bijapur, Golconda - to mention only a few of the more famous Hindu capitals - lost their native character and became nests of a closed creed waging incessant war on a catholic culture. Some of these places lost even their ancient names, which had great and glorious associations. It is on record that the Islamic invaders coined and imposed new and alien names, derived from their creed or history, on every place they conquered. Unfortunately for them, most of these impositions failed to stick, going the way they came. But quite a few succeeded and have endured till our own times. Reviving the ancient names wherever they have got eclipsed is one of the debts which Hindu society owes to its illustrious ancestors.

On the other hand, a large number of cities, towns and centres of Hindu civilization disappeared from the scene and their ruins have been identified only in recent times, as in the case of Kapisi, Lampaka, Nagarahara, Pushkalavati, Udbhandapura, Takshsila, Alor, Brahmanabad, Debal, Nandana, Agroha, Viratanagara, Ahichhatra, Sarvasti, Sarnath, Vaisali, Vikiramsila, Nalanda, Karnasuvarna, Pundravardhana, Somapura, Jajanagar, Dhanyakataka, Vijayapuri, Vijayanagara, Dvarasamudrã. What has been found on top of the ruins in most cases is a mosque or a dargãh or a tomb or some other Muslim monument, testifying to Allah's triumph over Hindu Gods. Many more mounds are still to be explored and identified. A survey of archaeological sites in the Frontier Circle alone and as far back as 1920 listed 255 dheris 33 or mounds which, as preliminary explorations indicated, hid ruins of ancient dwellings and/or places of worship. Some dheris, which had been excavated but were not included in this count, showed every sign of deliberate destruction. By that time, many more mounds of a similar character had been located in other parts of the cradle of Hindu culture. A very large number has been added to the total count in subsequent years. Whichever of them is excavated tells the same story, most of the time. It is a different matter that since the dawn of independence, Indian archaeologists functioning under the spell or from fear of Nehruvian Secularism, record or report only the ethnographical stratifications and cultural sequences. 34

Muslim historians credit all their heroes with many expeditions, each of which "laid waste" this or that province or region or city or countryside. The foremost heroes of the imperial line at Delhi and Agra such as Qutbu'd-Din Aibak (1192-1210 A.D.), Shamsu'd-Din Iltutmish (1210-36 A.D.), Ghiyasu'd-Din Balban (1266-86 A.D.), Aldu'd-Din Khilji (1296-1316 A.D), Muhammad bin Tughlaq (1325-51 A.D ') Firuz Shãh Tughlaq (1351-88 A.D.) Sikandar Lodi (1489-1519 A.D.), Babar (1519-26 A.D.) and Aurangzeb (1658-1707 A.D.) have been specially hailed for "hunting the peasantry like wild beasts", or for seeing to it that "no lamp is lighted for hundreds of miles", or for "destroying the dens of idolatry and God-pluralism", wherever their writ ran. The sultans of the provincial Muslim dynasties - Madura, Malwa, Gujarat, Sindh, Deccan, Jaunpur, Bengal - were not far behind, if not ahead, of what the imperial pioneers had done or were doing; quite often their performance put the imperial pioneers to shame. No study has yet been made of how much the human population declined due to repeated genocides committed by the swordsmen of Islam. But the count of cities and towns and villages, which simply disappeared during the Muslim rule, leaves little doubt that the loss of life suffered the cradle of Hindu culture was colossal.

rani, hindutva sites have a lot of information on making hindus look pitiful. broken arms and feet of idols dont prove jack. stone worshipping by itself a symbol of dark age.... if the Ghories wouldnt have gotten to them.... time would have. There is a good chance that the broken arms and feet of hindu gods fell with time and are now put on Muslims account.

Still how does any of this prove that hindutvas were pushed into dark ages by muslims? unless you consider xxx stone carved hindu goddesses to be a symbol of prosperity, equality etc. To most its just plain old perverted and obscene and result in the devdasi culture common in india. so its no surprise that the newly converted muslims got rid of the sick practices of brahman.

now close to half the hindu population today are known as low life shoodars. the kindof treatment they get in this day and age should remind u of the kindof filth they must be subjected to in pre-islamic era. when brahman had successfully fed the germs of inequality, prostitution, stone worshipping etc. into the minds of common public. Granted it had nothing to do with hinduism... but hinduism was used to spread it and is still used to this day. You only have to look at the increasing number of devdasies (close to 250,000 in every state of india) the religious prostitutes.

But brahman now blames muslims for all of the hindutva plight. stories of idols with fallen legs, feet and breast are told to blame muslims.... while the real causes of hindutva downfall e.g inequality, pervertedness and other stone age qualities are rubbed under the carpet.

Yes indeed amazing HOW our hindutva friends excel in thier phtoworks..they managed to make the noses of and trunks of elephans in the sculptures neatly fall off.Yes ofcourse this is all hinduvta fraud.. these noses fel of on thier own leaving behind a perfect cut and the rest of the sculpture in tact.

http://members.tripod.com/akshay_5/4.jpg

Im not sure if its against the rules here to post pics…if it is..il replace it with a link.

[This message has been edited by anant (edited October 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by anant (edited October 19, 2000).]

Hmmm,

Rani, I am disappointed but not altogether surprised at this. Hindutva revision of history is also a topic that needs to be addressed. Still, even without studying your "sources" too closely, I wonder why you think that destruction of holy places is part of Abrahamic religion? Can you provide any evidence from Abrahamic religion that it is allowed? Pouring hot oil into the mouths of low caste hindus is however sanctioned in the holy books of hindus, as is the burning of women.

These practices were continuing amongst the Hindus, with sanction by the highest Brahmin castes well after the arrival of Islam in India.

It is worth remembering that there are also Hindutva claims that Taj Mahal was originally a Hindu temple and that claim has now been rubbished as dangerous fraud. This is the kind of nonsense that led to the destruction of the Babri Masjid.

As far as I know, Buddhism was opposed to Brahmin caste division and it was eventually driven out by the Hindus themselves. Don't widen the topic too much. First show us how Abrahamic religion took India back to the Dark Ages and I remind you of your quote:

[quote]
You got to be kidding....they took us back to dark ages...with women locked up in the house, music and culture all defined as evil and ungodly. Even now we are facing the problems created by 'Abrahamical religions' which have no concept of universality. Guru nanak preached universality and equality of all human beings regardless of their religion which is absolutely opposite of what Abrahamical religions preach.
[/quote]

So stick to your original point which is about women locked in the house, music, culture, etc. What happened to Buddha's statue is going off tangent and it isn't verifiable fact anyhow. Also remember this topic is titled 'Basic Beliefs of Hinduism and Islam' so Guru Nanak's views are interesting but not really relevant to the topic.

Women in Hinduism: Something hindus are very proud of ]

Sati- widow burning[cruel acts of terror]

“Men must make their women dependent day and night, and keep under their own control those who are attached to sensory objects. Her father guards her in childhood, her husband guards her in youth, and her sons guard her in old age. A woman is not fit for independence.” – Manusmrti 9:2-4.

“Women are powerless, have no inheritance, and speak more humbly than even a bad man.” – Krsna Yajur Veda Taittiriya Samhita 6:5:8:2.

"Lord Indra himself has said, ‘The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.’ " – Rig Veda 8:33:17.

“A thirty-year-old man should marry a twelve-year-old girl who charms his heart, and a man of twenty-four an eight-year-old girl; and if duty is threatened, (he should marry) in haste.” – Manusmrti 9:94.

“A discarded wife is one who has no son. … For a wife that is without a son, is possessed with Nirriti (destruction, calamity).” – Satapatha Brahmana 5:3:1:13.

“A damsel whose menses begin to appear (while she is living) at her father’s house, before she has been betrothed to a man, has to be considered as a degraded woman: by taking her (without the consent of her kinsmen) a man commits no wrong.” – Visnusmrti 24:41.

“A girl, a young woman, or even an old woman should not do anything independently, even in (her own) house. In childhood a woman should be under her father’s control, in youth under her husband’s, and when her husband is dead, under her sons’. She should not have independence. A woman should not try to separate herself from her father, her husband, or her sons, for her separation from them would make both (her own and her husband’s) families contemptible. She should always be cheerful, and clever at household affairs; she should keep her utensils well-polished and not have too free a hand in spending. When her father, or her brother with her father’s permission, gives her to someone, she should obey that man while he is alive and not violate her vow to him when he is dead. Benedictory verses are recited and a sacrifice to the Lord of Creatures (Prajapati) is performed at weddings to make them auspicious, but it is the act of giving away (the bride) that makes (the groom) her master. A husband who performs always makes his woman happy, both when she is in her fertile season and when she is not, both here on earth and in the world beyond. A virtuous wife should constantly serve her husband like a god, even if he behaves badly, freely indulges his lust, and is devoid of any good qualities. Apart (from their husbands), women cannot sacrifice or undertake a vow or fast; it is because a wife obeys her husband that she is exalted in heaven. A virtuous wife should never do anything displeasing to the husband who took her hand in marriage, when he is alive or dead, if she longs for her husband’s world (after death). When her husband is dead she may fast as much as she likes, (living) on auspicious flowers, roots, and fruits, but she should not even mention the name of another man. She should be long-suffering until death, self-restrained, and chaste, striving (to fulfill) the unsurpassed duty of women who have one husband. Many thousands of Brahmins who were chaste from their youth have gone to heaven without begetting offspring to continue the family. A virtuous wife who remains chaste when her husband has died goes to heaven just like those chaste men, even if she has no sons. But a woman who violates her (vow to her dead) husband because she is greedy for progeny is the object of reproach here on earth and loses the world beyond. No (legal) progeny are begotten here by another man or in another man’s wife; nor is a second husband ever prescribed for virtuous women. A woman who abandons her own inferior (caste birth) husband and lives with a superior (caste birth) man becomes an object of reproach in this world; she is said to be ‘previously had by another man’. A woman who is unfaithful to her husband is an object of reproach in this world; (then) she is reborn in the womb of a jackal and is tormented by the diseases born of her evil.” – Manusmrti 5:147-164.

“Now the duties of a woman (are as follows): To live in harmony with her husband; To show reverence (by embracing their feet and such-like attentions) to her mother-in-law, father-in-law, to Gurus (such as elders), to divinities, and to guests; To keep household articles (such as the winnowing basket and the rest) in good array; To maintain saving habits; To be careful with her (pestle and mortar and other) domestic utensils; Not to practice incantations with roots (or other kinds of witchcraft); To observe auspicious customs; Not to decorate herself with ornaments (or to partake of amusements) while her husband is absent from home; Not to resort to the houses of strangers (during the absence of her husband); Not to stand near the doorway or by the windows (of her house); Not to act by herself in any matter; To remain subject, in her infancy, to her father; in her youth, to her husband; and in her old age, to her sons. After the death of her husband, to preserve her chastity, or to ascend the pile (funeral pyre) after him. No sacrifice, no vow, and no fasting is allowed to women apart from their husbands; to pay obedience to her lord is the only means for a woman to obtain bliss in heaven. A woman who keeps a fast or performs a vow (apart from her master) in the lifetime of her lord, deprives her husband of his life, and will go to hell. A good wife, who perseveres in a chaste life after the death of her lord, will go to heaven like (perpetual) students, even though she has no son.” – Visnusmrti 25:1-17.



V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**

Xtrreme,

So stick to your original point which is about women locked in the house, music, culture, etc. What happened to Buddha's statue is going off tangent and it isn't verifiable fact anyhow. Also remember this topic is titled 'Basic Beliefs of Hinduism and Islam' so Guru Nanak's views are interesting but not really relevant to the topic.

Muslims treated women as booty of the war, there are verses in the Quran that say that Kaffir women should be as booty of the war. women were kidnapped and forcibly taken away.

History is just history there is no Hindutava or any other version....if you want i can provide you with further proof that all this happened. I know by labelling hindutawa you somehow want to pretend that it never happened.

I kind of know why you are disappointed because you wanted to prove me wrong and depict muslim period as glorious and everybody else just Islam bashers and mean people, which is not the case. All this extreme destruction of Hindu scared places and attempt to trample and destroy Hindu and Buddhist culture took india back to dark ages. Indians couldn't stand up to the invaders because in 7th century they had forgotten their Kshatriya traditions and had become non-voilent Buddhists.

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**

Muslims treated women as booty of the war, there are verses in the Quran that say that Kaffir women should be as booty of the war. women were kidnapped and forcibly taken away.
**
[/quote]

I want proof. If you are truthful in what you say then you should have no problem in providing proof for this.


They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

Rani,

The article you have pasted here can be found on two virulent Hindutva websites;

One is The Soldiers of Hindutva, link provided:

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fhinduunityarchivessectionhinduunitycom.showMessage?topicID=67.topic

Also a list of other works by Sita Ram Goel can be found on the Sword of Truth website;
http://swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/bookstore/publication/authors.html

Sita Ram Goel

1.	The Emerging National Vision	$1.00
2.	Stalinist Historians Spread the Big Lie	$2.00
3.	Hindus and Hinduism: Manipulations of Meanings	$2.00
4.	How I Became a Hindu?	$2.50
5.	Defense of Hindu Society	$2.00
6.	Tipu Sultan: Hero or Villian?	$2.50
7.	Islam vis-a-vis Hindu Temples	$2.50
8.	Jesus Christ: An Artifice for Aggression	$5.50
9.	Catholic Ashrams: Sannyasins or Swindlers	$6.50
10.	Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them? (Vol. 1)	$5.00
11.	Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them (Vol. 2)	$10.00
12.	Perversion of India's Political Parlance	$1.00
13.	Muslim Separatism: Causes & Consequences	$2.00
14.	The Story of Islamic Imperialism in India	$2.00
15.	Genesis and Growth of Nehruism (Vol. 1)	$5.50
16.	"Hindu Samaj Sankaton Ke Ghere Mein" (in Hindi)	$1.50
17.	"Secularism - Rashtradroha Ka Doosara Naam" (in Hindi)	$1.50
18.	History of Hindu-Christian Encounters	$14.00
19.	Time For Stock Taking--Whither Sangh Parivar?	$13.00
20.	Vindicated by Time	$26.00
21.	Freedom Of Expression	$7.00
22.	Pseudo-Secularism, Christian Mission and Hindu Research	$3.00
23.	Papacy: Its Doctrine and History	$2.50
24.	Hindu Society under Siege	$2.00
25.	Heroic Hindu Resistance to Muslim Invaders	$2.00

Even Jesus Christ is described as an aggressor!

Rani, you are supposed to be a Sikh. What the hell are you doing lifting garbage like this from rabid Hindutva websites?

I’ll deal with your Islam treating women as booty later. That too deserves an answer!

By the way, the Sword of Truth website (where you will find the list of works by Rani’s “reputable” author)is worth visiting for a laugh. Dilip Kumar and Shah Rukh Khan are described as ‘Pakis’ by the editors of the website!
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/editorial/editorial.html

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited October 19, 2000).]

Xtreme,

Rani, you are supposed to be a Sikh. What the hell are you doing lifting garbage like this from rabid Hindutva websites?

It is the history i am interested in, the article is very well supported by the facts..it can be found anywhere why do your care or what does it matter.

Guru Nanak also supported what is said in the article, in one of his verses..i will post it as soon as i will find it.

An eye for an eye! Ear for an ear! and 'cut and paste' for 'cut and paste'!

Internet has made life so easy. A teacher of mine was explaining that for mater's thesis introduction, he had to go through library for hours and copy from here and there and type it later. Now, he said, students dont have to work hard. They need not write down the stuff. They can just cut and paste.

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
**Rani,

The article you have pasted here can be found on two virulent Hindutva websites;
**
[/quote]

At last the name of the author is mentioned and due credit is given to him unlike the tribe that quotes 'taitereya samhita', 'shukla yajurveda', 'shatapatha brahmanas' entirely on strength of cut and paste but pose as if they have read and mastered these books and make fool of themselves in later discussion.

All this extreme destruction of Hindu scared places and attempt to trample and destroy Hindu and Buddhist culture took india back to dark ages. Indians couldn't stand up to the invaders because in 7th century they had forgotten their Kshatriya traditions and had become non-voilent Buddhists.

Rani, again you are widening the discussion. Buddhism, like sikhism is a seperate topic. Why are you mixing it all up? If you want to discuss Buddhist failure in India, open up a new topic and I will gladly discuss with you there. Now you insisted that I discuss your remarks in this thread, so please stick to the topic of this thread. 'Basic beliefs of Hinduism and Islam'

That means forget about Buddhism and Sikhism and let's compare Hinduism and Islam and why you think Islam brought Dark Ages to India as opposed to Shudra abuse of the Brahmin cult of that time. And as you are so interested in history, please be fair and keep everything in context as regards time, dates etc.

Xtreme,

Sikhism was not a seperate religion at the time of Guru Nanak, please read below account given below by Guru Nanak about the Zulm done by muslims on Hindus. Religious discrimination practiced in Islam is as bad as social discrimination practiced by Hindus. The difference is that Hindus now realize that and are now doing their best to to eradicate the evil practice but on the other hand anything written in Quran is about non-believer will remain unchanged for all times to come.

==========================================================================================

At the time of the publication of this article the author was a Research
Assistant at Guru Nanak Dev University preparing his Ph.D thesis: "Sikh
Gurus and the Mughal State: A Study In Political Attitude".


POLITICAL ATTITUDE OF GURU NANAK
Balwant Singh Dhillon

Guru Nanak has made an explicit reference to contemporary muslim rule in his
compositions. Referring to the muslim rule he comments, "in the kaliyug the
name of God has become Allah. The respectable dress is of blue colour and
the rule is of the Turks and Pathans."[59]

Here the contemporary muslim rule has been associated with kaliyug but the
direct denunciation is missing. This is found in another verse, where Guru
Nanak states:

"Now the Primal Lord is called Allah and the turn of shaikhs has come. The
practice to tax the gods and their temples has come into vogue. The
ablution-pots, call to prayer and prayer carpets are seen everywhere, and
the lord appears in blue form. The language has become different, because in
every house people are called 'Mian'."[60]

Here Guru Nanak takes notice of the establishment of the muslim rule and
imposition of discriminatory tax called "Jizya", on those who do not profess
to the religion of the ruling class. Guru Nanak affirms, "now only the
reading of Quran is acceptable."[61] For the muslim rulers all human beings
other than muslims are of one caste, that is "Kafir"[62]. These verses state
the muslim's state's discriminatory attitude towards non-muslims. But
discrimination on the grounds of religion was against the tenets of Guru
Nanak. So his protest was but natural.

In medieval India a cow and a brahmin were considered to be sacred by the
Hindus. During Guru Nanak's times Pilgrimage tax and Jaziya were being
levied on the Hindus by the state. And apart from land revenue people had to
pay 'Gau-Shumari' a tax on the cows. Later on Akbar abolished these taxes.
Although the cow and a brahmin were sacred for Hindu officials working under
the muslim rule, but at the same time they had to collect these taxes.

IV

The verses relating to Babur's invasions and his subsequent battles with the
Lodi empire, are collectively known as "Babur-vani". The analysis of
Babur-vani is of great help to decipher Guru nanak's attitude towards the
Mughal and the Lodi rulers.

In Babur-vani attrocities and devastation caused by the invasion of Babur
and inefficiencies of the Lodi administration, have been highlighted. First
we take up Guru Nanak's reactions to Babur's invasion.

Commenting on Babur's invasion, Guru Nanak says, "with the marriage party of
sin, Babur has come from Kabul and demands charity by force."[70] Guru Nanak
testifies that the "invading mughal army has laid waste the priceless
country and no one pays heed to the dead."[71] Many strong mansions and
ordinary buildings were burnt and destroyed.[72] The mughal army "inflicted
so much beating that people shrieked."[73] Pointing to the death and murder,
Guru Nanak remarks:
"Princes were cut to pieces and rolled in the dust." Guru Nanak was deeply
pained to see the suffering of the ordinary people at the hands of the army,
and wrote,

"If the mighty destroy only one another, one is not grieved. But if a mighty
lion falls upon a herd of cattle, the Master is answerable."[74]

Moved by the suffering of the people, Guru Nanak invoked God and asked,

"did not You feel compassion at this suffering and lamentation."[75]

Protesting against the death and devastation caused by babur, Guru Nanak
sang paeans of murder[76] and described Babur as "angel of death."[77]

**Another unfortunate aspect of Babur's invasions was the fate of women at the
hands of the invading army. Guru Nanak remarks:

"the function of Qazis and Brahmins is over, now the marriage rites are
performed by Satan."[78]

Referring to the pitiable plight of women, he states;

"the robes of some women are torn from head to foot."[79] "The heads which
were adorned with tresses and filled with varmillion, are shaven and throats
are chocked with dust....The ropes are put around their necks and their
strings of pearls are broken. The order was given to the soldiers, who
having dishonoured them, took them away."[80] "In helpless and despair
muslim women invoke God and similar is the case with hindu women."[81]

Guru Nanak mentions that rape and suffering was not confined to any
particular community of women. Women of all castes viz. Hinduani, Turkani,
Bhattiani and Thakurani, they were all dishonoured and suffered at the hands
of the mughal army.[82]**

Guru Nanak points out the inadequate arrangements made by the Lodi empire to
defend the country. In India rulers used to employ magicians, because it was
considered that their spells and charms could defeat the army. Referring to
their worthlessness Guru Nanak states:

"Thousands of Pirs tried to stop Mir Babur (by means of magic) when they
heard of his invasion. But no mughal was blinded and none of the spells had
any effect."[87]

Guru Nanak's criticism of babur refers to him when he was an invader and not
the ruler of land. Guru Nanak upbraided Babur and his troops for tyranny and
atrocities by which people had to suffer a lot. Guru Nanak did not condem
Babur because he was a Muslim, but because he had caused rape, death and
devastation. Guru nanak's denunciation of Babur is unique because no Muslim
Sufi and Hindu saint dared to reprimand Babur for his oppression. It is said
that the Sufis blessed Babur and hailed his victory. It was only Guru Nanak
who aligned himself with the oppressed and felt the sufferings of the
people.

I think you should just go ahead and see it your self: Since you do not have any knowledge of what your scriptures say.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/hindu/hindu_heretics.html


Good Luck. Take it easy.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

And, watcher what did you make out it says, HIndu religion is full of hatred and filth or full of love (sex being a part of it). Do you want to see what Islam preaches,
pls. see the following, equally revealing website: http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/
What do you think is better a religion spreading hatred and death penalties for non-believers or one which talks about sex (what’s so wrong with that)

[This message has been edited by dhir (edited October 20, 2000).]

dhir,

in islam you are allowed to talk abt sex so i think your hindu friends are telling lies again.

talking about sex, can anyone tell me why hinduism allows rape, adultery, fornication, prostitution etc.

quite a big difference between hinduism and islam.