Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
For pleasant memories’ sake:
Tribute to Shabnam & Robin when they visited Pak from BanglaDesh last year:
Old TV show from mid 80s:
Pak movie made in BanglaDesh in late 80s or early 90s:
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
TS, so according to you if it weren’t for congress demanding the partition of punjab and bengal, Pakistan was poised to be a secular state? am i getting this right? 
this is quite untrue. at the time of partition most of the districts on pakistani side of punjab had between 20-30% hindus and sikhs - over 4.5 million hindus and sikhs moved to india right at partition. sindh had over 1.4 million hindus, of which over half migrated. these are not small numbers by any means.
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
I would think so. It would have to be some sort of secular set up out of practical need and demographic compulsions. If there were 20-25% minority as opposed to 2-3% currently, they would have to have a stronger say in the affairs of the country.
Jinnah did say something to the effect (in his speech even after the truncated Pakistan came into being) that now Muslims cease to be Muslims and Hindus cease to be Hindus, we are all Pakistanis now with freedom of religion guaranteed for all.
It would still have had a strong Muslim identity as India has Hindu identity as a country or US has a Christian identity.
The Islamic sloganeering near independence probably became a tactical/emotional need to rally support for an independent country for Muslims.
As far as I know, the fundamentalist Muslims were against the creation of Pakistan initially.
Incidentally, the white one fourth in the flag of Pakistan signifies its non-Muslim minorities.
Even though it is disproportionately large compared to the actual non-Muslim population of the country. It must have been designed when whole of Punjab and Bengal were supposed to be part of Pakistan. I don't know.
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
well maybe i am missing something crucial, but to me it has always seemed pakistanis think "secular" is a bad word.
nor do i see a reason why hindus, sikhs etc would willingly want to join a muslim majority country - especially one created claiming we are two separate nations.
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
Secular in the context of 'God-less' would be considered bad.
But not so much in the context of freedom of religion.
Besides, there is belief that Islamic principles are egalitarian enough to satisfy the requirements of secularism in some form.
The second point is understandable, but it would be similar to how Muslim minority would be living in a Hindu majority country. A larger part of them had the opportunity to create a country where they would be in majority, which they availed. They were certainly in large enough numbers in large enough tract of land to create a separate viable country. There are several much smaller countries in the world.
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
Incidentally, Bongobandhu, Sheikh Mujibur Rahmon is the most popular bengali of all times, according to surveys conducted in both sides of border.
Line of divide in Punjabis is 1000 times more deeper than that of Bengalis :)
He would obviously be popular in BanglaDesh because he created BD.
On the other hand, he would be popular in Indian Bengal because he was instrumental in the breakup of Pakistan - sort of a pay back for the partition of India. :)
However, as I mentioned before, Mujib is the one who had Jinnah's sister Faitma (called the Mother of Nation in Pakistan) win elections in E. Pak in the 60's when nefarious elements in Punjab made her lose against the dictator Ayyub in Punjab.
I have heard the term Bongubondhu for him before. What does it mean ?
If the line of divide is blurred between the two parts of Bengal, do you see them ever becoming one again as part of either BD or India ?
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
Yes, Pakistanis do remember the Bengali's contribution with regret and a sense of loss when there is discussion on this topic. There is just not enough discussion though.
That is great on the part of Pakistanis, I don't think Bengalis are as gracious as Pakistanis here
Tagore obviously has his edge. Iqbal used Urdu and Farsi in his work.
Tagore used only Bengali, the translation of his works by WB Yeats turned him into world wide figure :)
Mujib is the one who had Jinnah's sister Faitma (called the Mother of Nation in Pakistan) win elections in E. Pak in the 60's when nefarious elements in Punjab made her lose against the dictator Ayyub in Punjab.
Bengalis always had some sort of hatred against Punjabis :)
I guess Bengal is too far from the West.
I agree with the point about Bengalis versus Punjabis.
Incidentally, Bangal and Punjab were supposed to be part of Pakistan whole. But Congress leaders fought tooth and nail and carved them up. Thus a weaker, truncated and moth-eaten Pakistan was created.
It was never feasible to hand over entire states to Pakistan, Punjab had large number of non-muslim population,west Bengal was always hindu dominated, what league wanted was entire province which is too much to demand at the first place. Sir Cyril Radcliffe who never sat foot in these provinces divided it.
The question about M. A. Jinnah stands. He is the father of the nation.
Just because Bangladesh broke off from Pakistan does not mean it should disown Jinnah. That would be a disservice to themselves and their heritage.
Their heritage was always bengali and Islam, anything beyond this can be eliminated at any time
there is no comparison with punjab - there was no cleansing based on religion despite the violence in bengal at partition. west bengal still has more than 25% muslims; bangladesh even after the 1971 mass killing of hindus still has close to 10% hindus who play an active visible role in society unlike in pakistani punjab and sindh where they are invisible, or occupy the very bottom rungs. (TS, your crush shabnam is hindu too, bet you didnt know that ;) )
Punjab was never as inflammable as Calcutta, It burst into flames of communal violence in 1946 on direct action day, before partition violence the Naokhali Massacare of Hindus and communal backlash did occur, that is why, Gandhi concentrated on Bengal and acheived what entire Punjab Boundary force couldn't, that is, peaceful transfer of population. Lord Mountabatten called him one man boundary force, only sane voice in insane India
I'll have to check the facts but I think the constitution gives minorities equal rights. Save, I believe, that they can't be head of state.
The initial idea for partition of India was for two states, one comprising Hindu majority provinces and one comprising Muslim majority provinces. And yes, with a large non-Muslim minority in Punjab and Bengal, Pakistan would have to be some sort of a secular state for it to work practically. Just like India but with reverse demographic parity. It would not have been an exclusively 99% Muslim state as it became with the carving of Punjab and Bengal on demand of Congress.
The idea of Pakistan was to create a separate state for at least a part of the large Muslim minority of India; so that they would not be a perpetual minority in a modern (1-person, 1-vote) democratic India, after independence. This, after Jinnah realized that Hindu-Muslim unity was not working out and that United India would leave Muslims as a large minority in India dominated by the large Hindu majority.
With population of above 95%, it is okay for any country to be either secular or communal, it doesn't matter much.
Hindus progressed much faster than muslims after 1857, British adminstration needed clerks and brahmins filled the staff as they used to, in mughal times.
Jinnah used muslim issue as more bargaining tool to get more concessions for muslim. Congress was reluctant, so did away with Jinnah by giving him his country.
I would think so. It would have to be some sort of secular set up out of practical need and demographic compulsions. If there were 20-25% minority as opposed to 2-3% currently, they would have to have a stronger say in the affairs of the country.
Jinnah did say something to the effect (in his speech even after the truncated Pakistan came into being) that now Muslims cease to be Muslims and Hindus cease to be Hindus, we are all Pakistanis now with freedom of religion guaranteed for all.
It would still have had a strong Muslim identity as India has Hindu identity as a country or US has a Christian identity.
The Islamic sloganeering near independence probably became a tactical/emotional need to rally support for an independent country for Muslims.
As far as I know, the fundamentalist Muslims were against the creation of Pakistan initially.
Incidentally, the white one fourth in the flag of Pakistan signifies its non-Muslim minorities. Even though it is disproportionately large compared to the actual non-Muslim population of the country. It must have been designed when whole of Punjab and Bengal were supposed to be part of Pakistan. I don't know.
Then I believe that entire population would have fled the supposed boundary of Pakistan, anyway most of the refugees settled in Delhi and UP than in Indian Punjab, every city of UP has considerable number of Punjabi population since then. Even now, I can not see any future in a secular state carved out in the name of religion, at the emotional and uneducated times like those it was hardly an option to try.
He would obviously be popular in BanglaDesh because he created BD. On the other hand, he would be popular in Indian Bengal because he was instrumental in the breakup of Pakistan - sort of a pay back for the partition of India. :)
The basic difference is the attitude of Bengalis, Punjabi Hindus turned towards Hindi, Punjabi Muslims towards Urdu, only Sikhs remained true to Punjabi because GuruGranthSahib is written in Punjabi, rest remained just verbal romanticism of old times for verbal discourses. Bengali pride is really ethnic, they came of with actual idea of motherland, motrobhumi is political bengali idea of motherland, extended to India, BD's national anthem was written by Tagore, along with Indian one, also it was tagore's disciple who wrote Sri Lanka's anthem based on Robindro Shongeet. :)
However, as I mentioned before, Mujib is the one who had Jinnah's sister Faitma (called the Mother of Nation in Pakistan) win elections in E. Pak in the 60's when nefarious elements in Punjab made her lose against the dictator Ayyub in Punjab.
I have heard the term Bongubondhu for him before. What does it mean ?
It means friend of Bengal
If the line of divide is blurred between the two parts of Bengal, do you see them ever becoming one again as part of either BD or India ?
I think it will not be good, as Bangladeshi economy is doing better than West Bengal as of now
Re: Bangladesh Victory Day
Thanks for your time to respond. :)