Bakri Qur'aan khaa gai? :smack:

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

verse is hardly forgotten but read everyday by Muslims all over the world as part of the Quran. it is included in every Quran that is published to date and read as part of it, regardless of people suggesting that it isnt.

Hain? What verse are you talking about?

Are you talking about “What we abrogate of the verses or cause to be forgotten, we come with what is better or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is capable of all things?” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 105]

Or are you talking about a verse on stoning as punishment for adultery - I thought there was no such verse in the Quran (as we see the Quran printed today, and as it was printed centuries ago)

[ravage]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

no i think there is one..lemme find it for you

[ravage]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

okay my bad, i got misguided by

Also, there is a contradiction in the position: for example, some consider aya al-rajm to be a part of Sura al-Nur while others place it in Sura al-Ahzab.

Didnt occur to me that these surahs are there in a truncated form according to sunni belief. which I now find to be an incorrect assumption, since those are the places where it was abrogated from in their view..

apologies, its 5am here :-/

[PakistaniAbroad]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

hahah hadith thumpers doing backflips and coming up with absurd theories to uphold their fabrications.. never once admitting that Qur’an is the supreme law and no other text can override it..

to the OP.. chill dude.. these are just fabricated accounts.. the Qur’an is complete and safe and secure.. ignore blasphemies insinuating some goat ate parts of it

[ammarr]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

^-- yeah funny aint it.. but not funnier than a “certain” pervazite group that has been doing even funnier backflips and cooking up even more absurd theories for quite some time now.. man.. you should listen to these guys

[PakistaniAbroad]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

well feel free to discuss that with the members of the ‘certain’ group.. why drag it into this thread?

[Captain1]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Anwaar Qureshi

IMO, ‘ayahs of ALLAH’ refers to every revelation of Him sent to mankind. I refer to Quran for this as well:

3:23 **“Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who have been given ****a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them turn back and decline ****(the arbitration).” **Surah Aal-e-Imran

So, the ayah of Rajam was in Torah and Prophet:saw: continued the law as it was not abrogated in the Quran EXPLICITELY.

I don’t agree with you here AQ. I don’t think this verse means to approve use of Laws in Torah to be used by followers/believers of Quran.

[AQ]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Captain1

I don’t agree with you here AQ. I don’t think this verse means to approve use of Laws in Torah to be used by followers/believers of Quran.

you are right… I did not put the ayah to show that we ought to follow Torah. The ayah was mentioned (as the underlined clause emphasized) to the fact that " ‘ayahs of ALLAH’ refers to every revelation of Him sent to mankind."

I did not put this ayah to justify Rajam.

[Sadiyah]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

I still require clarifications and I’m still in touch with Islamtoday.com about this topic. Following is what I received:

Al-Salâm `Alaykum wa Rahmah Allah wa Barakâtuh.

A verse of the Qur’ân brings many rulings with it. Among those rulings is that it is to be read as an act of worship. Another is that it can be read as part of our recitation in prayer. Another is that it cannot be recited by a person in a state of major ritual impurity. Another is that it is to be compiled together with the other texts of the Qur’ân.

Another ruling that the verse comes with is the ruling that may be indicated by the verse.

For instance, the verse that contains the words “establish prayer” also gives the ruling that prayer is obligatory.

Allah can abrogate the ruling indicated by the wording of a verse and leave it in the book.
This means that although the legal ruling indicated by the verse no longer applies, the rulings pertaining to it being a verse still apply. It can still be read in our prayers, it still requires that a person is pure from major ritual impurity to recite it…etc.

With respect to “The male and female sheikh, if they commit adultery, stone them to death.” The opposite is the case. This is a verse where its recitation is abrogated but the ruling that it indicates remains in effect.

What is abrogated is its being recited as part of the Qur’ân and the other rulings that are associated with a verse of the Qur’ân. For instance, we can no longer recite it in our prayers, though when it had been part of the Qur’ân, it had been permissible to recite it in prayer. That is what has been abrogated.

Allah says: “What we abrogate of the verses or cause to be forgotten, we come with what is better or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is capable of all things?” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 105]

The ruling that the verse indicated – that a married adulterer is to be stoned – is not abrogated. The punishment was not abrogated. It is still in effect. Only the recitation of this verse was abrogated.

And Allah knows best.

Fatwâ Department Research Committee of IslamToday chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî

[Captain1]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Anwaar Qureshi

you are right… I did not put the ayah to show that we ought to follow Torah. The ayah was mentioned (as the underlined clause emphasized) to the fact that " ‘ayahs of ALLAH’ refers to every revelation of Him sent to mankind."

I did not put this ayah to justify Rajam.

Then are you suggesting that since it was “explicitly” not abrogated Prophet PBUH followed it? There might be other issues that were not “abrogated” in Quran and Prophet PBUH neither “practised” it nor “forbidden” to practice, yes/no?

[PakistaniAbroad]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Sadiyah

I still require clarifications and I’m still in touch with Islamtoday.com about this topic. Following is what I received:

that’s the most bogus argument ever.. but they are not at fault.. i see many eager to accept it.. that’s the bigger problem.

so now we’ve a shadow Qur’an.. verses which never made it to the Qur’an.. are known not to have made it.. BUT they are considered when it’s time to create Shariah laws!!

kuch naheeN banay gaa iss kaum kaa.. if Mullahs come up with an alternate Book other than Quar’an.. all these hadith lovers will immediately discard the Qur’an and start following that!! oh wait!! that’s already happened!

[Captain1]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Sadiyah

I still require clarifications and I’m still in touch with Islamtoday.com about this topic. Following is what I received:

Al-Salâm `Alaykum wa Rahmah Allah wa Barakâtuh.

A verse of the Qur’ân brings many rulings with it. Among those rulings is that it is to be read as an act of worship. Another is that it can be read as part of our recitation in prayer. Another is that it cannot be recited by a person in a state of major ritual impurity. Another is that it is to be compiled together with the other texts of the Qur’ân.

Another ruling that the verse comes with is the ruling that may be indicated by the verse.

For instance, the verse that contains the words “establish prayer” also gives the ruling that prayer is obligatory.

Allah can abrogate the ruling indicated by the wording of a verse and leave it in the book.
This means that although the legal ruling indicated by the verse no longer applies, the rulings pertaining to it being a verse still apply. It can still be read in our prayers, it still requires that a person is pure from major ritual impurity to recite it…etc.

With respect to “The male and female sheikh, if they commit adultery, stone them to death.” The opposite is the case. **This is a verse where its recitation is abrogated but the ruling that it indicates remains in effect.

What is abrogated is its being recited as part of the Qur’ân and the other rulings that are associated with a verse of the Qur’ân. For instance, we can no longer recite it in our prayers, though when it had been part of the Qur’ân, it had been permissible to recite it in prayer. That is what has been abrogated.**

Allah says: “What we abrogate of the verses or cause to be forgotten, we come with what is better or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is capable of all things?” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 105]

The ruling that the verse indicated – that a married adulterer is to be stoned – is not abrogated. The punishment was not abrogated. It is still in effect. Only the recitation of this verse was abrogated.

And Allah knows best.

Fatwâ Department Research Committee of IslamToday chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî

Is there Quranic verse which defines the “kinds” of abrogation? or is it “scholars” opinion? Are there more examples of “such” abrogation?

[Sadiyah]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

Captain1, to me it seems as it’s the scholar’s opinion. I don’t think Quran has defined such examples of abrogation, nor am i aware of any more examples. Feel free to correct me.

Please keep in mind that I’ve only posted what I have received. I’m going to try and find out the opinion of a few other scholars and knowledgeable individuals before I take a stance.

[AQ]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Captain1

Then are you suggesting that since it was “explicitly” not abrogated Prophet PBUH followed it? There might be other issues that were not “abrogated” in Quran and Prophet PBUH neither “practised” it nor “forbidden” to practice, yes/no?

For the First Question, answer is YES and for the later part, Possibly YES, but requires a little bit of more knowledge for me. I am not surely aware of if such things are taken in consideration or if there is a guideline given on such situations.

[Captain1]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Anwaar Qureshi

For the First Question, answer is YES and for the later part, Possibly YES, but requires a little bit of more knowledge for me. I am not surely aware of if such things are taken in consideration or if there is a guideline given on such situations.

For latter part, I don’t remember exactly if there is a hadith but we (Muslims) are discouraged to read prior texts, isn’t that so?

Also, you are suggesting that Prophet PBUH followed the law of rajm probably cuz it was in Torah and wasn’t “explicitly” abrogated in Quran, but the hadith cited which quotes Hazrat Umar RA suggests something different.

[Captain1]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Sadiyah

Captain1, to me it seems as it’s the scholar’s opinion. I don’t think Quran has defined such examples of abrogation, nor am i aware of any more examples. Feel free to correct me.

Please keep in mind that I’ve only posted what I have received. I’m going to try and find out the opinion of a few other scholars and knowledgeable individuals before I take a stance.

Then very likely scholars are taking this hadith as “strong/acceptable” even though it apparently is conflicting with Quran.

[AQ]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Captain1

For latter part, I don’t remember exactly if there is a hadith but we (Muslims) are discouraged to read prior texts, isn’t that so?

Also, you are suggesting that Prophet PBUH followed the law of rajm probably cuz it was in Torah and wasn’t “explicitly” abrogated in Quran, but the hadith cited which quotes Hazrat Umar RA suggests something different.

Thanks alot for clearing all this. Hence, my understanding is that Islam is completed by the prophet:saw: and his sunnah. If he continued the Rajam, so be it. You are right that we are discouraged to read the prior revelations but scholars have a disagreement on the context of reading. Ahmed Deedat and Dr. Zakir Naik are two people who have studied the other books so that they can present Islam comparitively showing what went wrong and where. We are not allowed to give preference to other books over Quran; so anything that contradicts with Quranic text is FALSE (and hence altered) according to our belief.

When it comes to “Mohkamaat” of Islam, they are outlined (all of them) in Quran and Sunnah already.

[Captain1]

Re: Bakri Qur’aan khaa gai?

@Anwaar Qureshi

Thanks alot for clearing all this. Hence, my understanding is that Islam is completed by the prophet:saw: and his sunnah. If he continued the Rajam, so be it. You are right that we are discouraged to read the prior revelations but scholars have a disagreement on the context of reading. Ahmed Deedat and Dr. Zakir Naik are two people who have studied the other books so that they can present Islam comparitively showing what went wrong and where. We are not allowed to give preference to other books over Quran; so anything that contradicts with Quranic text is FALSE (and hence altered) according to our belief.

When it comes to “Mohkamaat” of Islam, they are outlined (all of them) in Quran and Sunnah already.

but then people are not ready to discard a “hadith” which contradicts Quran so clearly.