baby in the field

[aiklarkithe]

Yesterday I went to this relative’s house. the lady was very upset when asked she told about this incident that had happened in her village and she kind of knew these people.

This girl, under 15, unmaried gave birth to a baby boy. no one knew that she was pregnant as she never left her home and stayed inside for whole time. her family went to throw the baby in the fields hoping no one will find out about the baby. Someone saw them doing it and called police. they came and took the baby and now there is a police case.
the girl has 4 elder unmarried sisters as well and her parents have very bad reputation in the village.

an argument started over this topic and most people were saying that to protect the honour of the family and village, people shouldnt have informed the police.

but my point was about the baby. why was he being treated as a trash. in fields any animal would have eaten him, would have starved and no on cared about his survival or his life. he is a human baby, why being treated as a trash.

if the girl was raped, police should have been informed or if it was her mistake there are other ways of dealing with the issue. give up baby for adoption or leave at Edhi centre than throwing in the fields.

than the argument started about getting abortion. and i found that most desi people, especially in villages do not see it as wrong if done in first three months. they have a view that in first three months there is no ‘Jaan’ so its ok do get abortion done.
But i thought it was haram to get abortion done at any stage other than for medical reasons.

I am so shocked at desi’s attitude. Despite being Muslims, life does not have any value. people will do anything to save their IZZAT and will even kill for it.
What is Izzat? to me it does not have any meanings even though i belong to these so called IZZAT DAR Families, who will do anything for their IZZAT.

I have seen/heard about honour killings; and normally in punjab girls are killed for having affairs or running away and man is not even touched. why?

is it honourable to kill someone which is haram islamically or provide justice to anyone, be the mother or baby.

I might be crazy but i can not get over the fact that they threw away human baby and for what reasons? Izzat?

[zayma]

Re: baby in the field

oh my god seriously.... that is bad well u know in pak i heard there is this thing that if a girl is raped she has to have witnesses? i dun know how true that is buh it can be because of tha

[P_GL]

Re: baby in the field

^im sure she has two have either 2 female witnesses or 1 male witness i may be wrong :)

[Straight_up]

Re: baby in the field

I am not surprised one bit. Okay just a little because she is only fifteen and that is such a naive age - some guy could have easily taken advantage of her and now her life is more likely than not ruined! Plus, I feel for the four elder unmarried sisters and that baby.

I am just thinking she must have known perfectly well what the consequences of her actions were going to be, i.e. the baby was not going to be welcomed with open arms and literally dumped in the field.

What I would like to know is whether this was due to a rape or done with full consent?

[aiklarkithe]

@P_GL

^im sure she has two have either 2 female witnesses or 1 male witness i may be wrong :)

i have heard of it but dont know if its true or not. but it is weired. if there are 2 or 4 persons present, what are the chances of a person being raped anyway, unless its gang rape.

[aiklarkithe]

@Straight_up

I am not surprised one bit. Okay just a little because she is only fifteen and that is such a naive age - some guy could have easily taken advantage of her and now her life is more likely than not ruined! Plus, I feel for the four elder unmarried sisters and that baby.

I am just thinking she must have known perfectly well what the consequences of her actions were going to be, i.e. the baby was not going to be welcomed with open arms and literally dumped in the field.

What I would like to know is whether this was due to a rape or done with full consent?

i dont know if it was rape or done with consent but i will try to find out. what is shocking to me is people's attitute.

[Shikra]

I just want to comment on the following 2 points, but before I do, let me just say that I agree, a human should not be treated as trash. It was wrong on all levels to throw that baby away in the fields.

@aiklarkithe

than the argument started about getting abortion. and i found that most desi people, especially in villages do not see it as wrong if done in first three months. they have a view that in first three months there is no ‘Jaan’ so its ok do get abortion done.
But i thought it was haram to get abortion done at any stage other than for medical reasons.

This can be a very lengthy discussion, but the short answer is that a fetus can be aborted if there’s no “rooh” in it.

Islam Question and Answer - Abortion of a foetus resulting from a zina relationship
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on aborting a pregnancy in the early stages

@aiklarkithe

I have seen/heard about honour killings; and normally in punjab girls are killed for having affairs or running away and man is not even touched. why?

I have heard of a few instances where couples ran away. The girls were not killed but the boy was beaten the crap out of. So saying “man is not even touched” would be incorrect, there are always exceptions.

[aiklarkithe]

@Shikra

I just want to comment on the following 2 points, but before I do, let me just say that I agree, a human should not be treated as trash. It was wrong on all levels to throw that baby away in the fields.

This can be a very lengthy discussion, but the short answer is that a fetus can be aborted if there’s no “rooh” in it.

Islam Question and Answer - Abortion of a foetus resulting from a zina relationship
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on aborting a pregnancy in the early stages

I have heard of a few instances where couples ran away. The girls were not killed but the boy was beaten the crap out of. So saying “man is not even touched” would be incorrect, there are always exceptions.

I did some research on this topic as well.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543150&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547110

[eastern11]

Re: baby in the field

Do you know if the baby is alright?

[AmirShahzad]

Re: baby in the field

Do you know the difference between a civilised person and non-civil people? and Why villagers fall in the latter category?

The difference is not that civilised people have read loads of books, there are lots of people who are not as highly educated but quite civilised because they live in such societies and their thoughts reflect the same.

The only thing that sets these two apart is the way they deal with situations in life. the civilised people act differently and the uncivilised act differently and more so, quite wrongly. But sit them down and dare to tell them they've done something wrong, and they will show you what 'WRONG' means by their description!

[midnighteyes]

Wow thats really sad and sick, the poor baby :(

[midnighteyes]

This can be a very lengthy discussion, but the short answer is that a fetus can be aborted if there’s no “rooh” in it.

Islam Question and Answer - Abortion of a foetus resulting from a zina relationship
Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on aborting a pregnancy in the early stages

Its not a yes and no question. Even in the links you posted, like the second clearly states the limited exceptions in which an early abortion would be permissible, like when keeping the fetus inside the mother will actually kill the mother or seriously harm her. The first one also doesnt just say yes you can abort it, first it shows how wrong abortion is and it says even for someone who did zinna and conceived, how it is still wrong and people might take this as an excuse to hide their wrong actions and then at the end it mentions the case of someone who has done zinna and gotten pregnant and then really repented and feels remorse and wants to start like a new life, but it says for such a situation a fatwa must be given on an individual basis, it cannot be a general fatwa, so we cant say that yes abortion is permissible, because yes as you said, its a very lenghty discussion and very very delicate and totally depends on the situation

[midnighteyes]

@P_GL

^im sure she has two have either 2 female witnesses or 1 male witness i may be wrong :)

Here is an explaination:

[QUOTE]
Question:
If a woman is raped, does she have to bring up 4 witnesses to get the rapist convicted? If so, what is if she gets pregnant. Will she get punishment since juridicaly she is guilty of adultery? And can modern technics be used in order to proof that she was being raped.
I read somewhere else, that she has to bring up 4 witnesses, but it seems very unlikely, since if there were 4 witnesses theese would obviously done something to help her. Can u please bring some light into this whole complicated topic.

*Answer: *

Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

I pray this finds you in the best of health and spirits.

This is a common myth about Islamic criminal law. Rather, the four witness requirement applies only to the prescribed hadd punishment (which in the case of a married person could be death and for the non-married, 100 lashes). [Marghinani, Hidaya] This punishment is only applied in very rare cases, as is clear, and is meant to be a social deterrent, above all.

As the classical and contemporary jurists (such as Mufti Taqi Usmani) have made clear, a rapist can be convicted on lesser evidence (including scientific evidence, such as DNA tests and medical reports) for discretionary punishments. These discretionary punishments are left up to the legal system to determine.

However, it is a myth to say that Islam would in any way condone rape, or allow a rapist to go free for this terrible crime against an innocent human being and against society.

And Allah alone gives success.

Faraz Rabbani

MMVIII © Faraz Rabbani and SunniPath.
[/QUOTE]

[midnighteyes]

And also:

Question: Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. When it says to bring four witnesses against a woman who has committed indecency, is it for the woman who has been raped or this is for a married woman whose husband is in doubt about her indecency? Please explain in detail.

Answer: Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.

In Islam, we are not allowed to tarnish the honor of anyone. One is required to produce four witnesses when making an allegation of adultery against another person; otherwise, one will be guilty of slandering.

A raped woman is a victim that must be treated with honor and kindness. She is not required to produce four witnesses to prove the crime done against her, nor is she punished for the crime done against her.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

If a person makes an allegation of adultery against another person (male or female) he or she must produce four witnesses to support such an allegation; otherwise, he or she is guilty of slandering, which is a grave offense in Islam, for we are not to tarnish the honor of anyone.

A woman who has been raped cannot be asked to produce witnesses; her claim shall be accepted unless there are tangible grounds to prove otherwise. To insist that she provide witnesses is akin to inflicting further pain on her. If anyone refutes her claim of innocence, the onus is on him to provide evidence, and she may simply deny the claim by making a solemn oath, thus clearing herself in public. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The onus to provide evidence falls on the one who makes a claim, and the one who denies (the same) can absolve himself or herself by making a solemn oath to the contrary.”

As for a spouse who witnesses his or her partner committing adultery and the other party denies it and they are unable to provide witnesses, they are, if they so desire, to part company by repudiating each other by engaging in what is known as a solemn oath and prayer of curse (li`an). It is described thus in the Qur’an: “And those who accuse their wives, and have no witnesses but themselves, then the testimony of each of them shall be a testimony sworn by God repeated four times, that he is indeed truthful. And the fifth (oath) is that God’s curse be upon him if he is lying. And it shall avert punishment from her that she testify a testimony repeated and sworn by God four times, that he is lying. And a fifth (oath) that the wrath of God be upon her, if he has spoken the truth” (An-Nur: 6-9).

Are Raped Women Asked to Bring Four Witnesses? - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

[aiklarkithe]

@eastern11

Do you know if the baby is alright?

he is fine and some people with police came and took the baby away with them.

[eastern11]

@aiklarkithe

he is fine and some people with police came and took the baby away with them.

Thanks God, that's all I wa sthinking of when I read your post! So sad!!

[jLOne]

Re: baby in the field

i just wanted to thank the people that researched and were thoughtful enough to post the answer to the 'witness and rape' question. when i first read the comment about needing 4 witnesses i was a bit taken a back.. how can someone being raped have the ability to provide 4 witnesses?! out of laziness i would have just thought about it for a while and moved onto thinking about something else... (but in the back of my mind i would have doubt towards the religion right...) ............ so basically by taking the time to 1) research and 2) post it you not only helped yourself, but me! and prob others :)

[aiklarkithe]

i just wanted to thank the people that researched and were thoughtful enough to post the answer to the 'witness and rape' question. when i first read the comment about needing 4 witnesses i was a bit taken a back.. how can someone being raped have the ability to provide 4 witnesses?! out of laziness i would have just thought about it for a while and moved onto thinking about something else... (but in the back of my mind i would have doubt towards the religion right...) ............ so basically by taking the time to 1) research and 2) post it you not only helped yourself, but me! and prob others :)

agree with you. we have time but are too lazy to research. we need to understand our religion.