Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

we dont realize the basic differnce between the personalities of Abu Bakr and Umar ...

Umar was ..Mujtahid...reformer..enthusiastic leader...who alongwith Tqleed ..also did a lot of Ijtihaad...a master and imam of fiqaah....

Abu Bakr ..on the other side was purely Muqalid...100% ..and follower of an inch of prophet(pbuh) saying....in his whole life..hardly gave any idea to prophet(pbuh) ...his whole life was...samaina ..Wa atana (We hear,We obey)

*when umar said that replace usama bin zaid with senoir General..in the expedition went to Rome..Abu Bakr ...shouted in anger ...Umer..your mother weep for you( a very abusive sentence of arabic)...do you want that i replace that man ..who is selected by prophet(pbuh)"

  • when umar tried to convince abu bakr on quran collection..he resited a lot that how can i collect it when Prophet(pbuh) not ordered it to collect....

  • when umar urged abu bakr to dismiss Khalid bin waleed ...he refused by saying i cannot put this swoerd in niyaam which was declared by prophet(pbuh) as sword of Allah....

All above incidents clewarly show that...abu bakr was not willing to move an inch from any saying and clear cut hadees of prophet(pbuh).....

infact when fatima(ra) came to him for Fadak..issue..he said.....

...Aai noora-i-chasma-i-batool..aap ka adb-o-ahtram sir ankho par..laikin Abu Quhafa kai baitai mai itni jurrat nahee kai ..Rasululla (pbuh) kai zuban-e-mubarik sai niklai huwai lafzau sai baal brabar bhee inhiraaf karai...

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Dude, I aint no scholar, but just remember one thing, whether it was 1400 years ago or now, there is only one golden rule, FAMILY COMES FIRST. It might be different in your case, but I prefer my sister/mosther/wife among other people. Anyway's as Sharrabi said, "The people at whom some of us are pointing their fingers are far too high for our reach". So I would end it right here.
-Salman

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

In Islam Allah :swt:'s Laws come first…No one is above it…Not even Prophets…They were willing to sacrifice not only their own lives but the lives of their families as well for Allah :swt:'s commands…

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Yaar I totally agree that family comes first. It might be different in your case but I prefer my sister/mother/wife follow the rules set down by religion/society and follow the law.

Peace

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

That rule might apply to weaklings like us, but to associate the Prophet (sas) with a such a low-life rule would be a crime.

No one is above the Shariah.....period; and their are plenty of ahadith to prove this point, so lets not forget the qawaids of this Deen in the height of our emotions.

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Sharrabi bhai, in my opinion disrespecting the Rasool :saw: daugther should be a crime. His saying’s are the shariah right? Are you suggesting nawoozbillah Hazarat Fatima r.a wasn’t following shariah or didn’t know her own father’s teachings ? Are you suggesting that she purposely tried to disobey Rasool-ull-Allah’s Shariah by asking the land of FidaK from Hazrat Abu-Bakar r.a. ? By no means I am disrespecting any of the Sahaba, and laanat oh mairaye per if I am doing that; But I am saying that on one side we so strongly believe that no body should be above the Shariah, but quiet convienently we are forgetting that this is the very daughter of that person on which this whole shariah based upon. As somebody said here on this thread, some one was wrong and someone was right in this issue. We will only know on the day of Qiyamat. And as you said, The people at whom some of us are pointing their fingers are far too high for our reach". I agree with that statement and lets end it right here.
-Salman

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

AOA & thanks for the best wishes!
Please read with open mind and eyes

In my personal openion it is strange that we reject some stuff as history and base our faith on Quran and sunnah............................
What is history......... can any one explain? Please!

History is any thing for YOU/SOMEONE which does not happen in front of YOU/SOMEONE or simple stated which is not seen by your eyes. If seen by eyes then it is history for some one else not for you as u become part of that reality which becomes history for some one else.
History in my personal openion has few important characteristis:
it repeats with diffrent charcters, stage and twists in drama.
it is the window in future.
it needs quite a bit analysis to have truth and reach a real root.

I will give u my discusion with a Jew
we were discussing situation in afghanistan, iraq, palestine/israel and usa in the rwar/religious point of veiws and i said at one point that no doudbt shia and sunni are fighting each other, muslims and jews/christians are fighting one another too but looking at history i see that we will have change soon and we will learn to live with each other. He asked how can isay that. I said coz of historical facts. He said how/why. I said jews used to fight each other and with egyptions/romans and so on, and then they learned to live with each other inspite of differences among them and used to fight with non jews only, then cam a new religion christianity and we see jews fighting christianity and christianity fighting among themselves and then came a new religion islam and we see jews and christians and muslims fight and so on but jew and christians learned how to live with each other and among themselves inspite of differences, so sooner or later diffrent sects of islam will learn to live with each other and jews, christians and muslims will grow to a point where they will live peacfully too.
He said u r right but when jews were fighting it was a horse and sword, when christians were fighting it was an era of guns, tanks and so on but now when we all are fighting it is the time of nuclear bombs, which can wipe out whole lot of people at once.
I looked at him and said yaa u r right. But u know what, we are not using tools we have in front in a proper way and he said what tools.
I said

1) history.............we are not learning from it
2) ignorance....... we do not understand meaning of ignorance which is " not ignorance but ignorance of ignorance is ignorance"
3) wise and fool.......... difference of fool and wise is not that one is wise and other fool but " fool learns from his own mistakes and wise from the mistakes of fool"

So my dear borther history gives u all.

Quran is a Holy book from Allah (swt) for u , for me or for other beleivers but did it revealed in front of u, or me or the beleivers today. No and thus non beleivers look at it as a book in history and for us it is a book in history but from Allaha (swt), for all times and completely error free.
But can u deny quran is history too
1) not in front of u. but b4 u
2) tells u story of prophets and evil doers from even b4. so u can learn from wise and fool
3) gives u solution of future from the past. window in future
4) predicts future. Window in future
5) above 4 points shows it is the

Similar and in a even more clearer ways it can be said about Sunnaha/hadith as
One can not 100 percent certify even one hadith as it is from man not ALLAHA (swt) who took responsibility of quran not sunnaha/hadith and all sunnaha/hadith books clearly discuss this issue.
Now if we can verify very important pillar of islam that is hadith/sunnaha with quran and use quran as a tool to purify hadith and see which one is what that is good, bad, weak and so on and then bring them out of history and call them hadith/sunnaha ( for us not for non beleivers as they call it history of Muhammad (pbuh)) and base our faith and actions on that pat of history (holy history), why can not othe parts of history be dealt with to find what is what in the light of quran as u said u base ur religion or faith on quran ( i liked it and we all need to have this kind of openness/sincerety that we base our faith in/on quran).

1)DOES QURAN DISSCUSSES STORIES OF OTHER PROPHETS AND DO THEY GET WARIS/HEIR?
2)DO YOU BELEIVE/UDERSTAND THAT BIBI FATIMA, ALI, HASSAN, HUSSAIN, and ABU BAKAR were all wrong or all right in this case of fidak?
3)Does hadith and history says any thing about it and is according to quran?

Please go and search for answers for urself, and do not ask some one else and begin with quran as beauty of the sahabaa was they " the opended eyes of heart, soul and brain and refuse to follow what was followed at that time by every one including their own ones"

Just open ur eyes or please open mine to better understand islam.

take care and AH

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Assalamu Alaykum,

Quran has reached to us through previous generations but it is a word of God and, once it is established that the word of God has reached us intact, it is above anything else.

For argument's sake, let us say that I know 100% for sure that an incident of some person has reached me, and the word of God has reached me, the word of God, i.e. the Quran, is always above any incident of history. My faith is dependent on Quran, not on what people did and did not. My faith, beliefs and salvation has been guided to me by my Creator, the Almighty, Most Wise, Most Gracious and Ever Merciful, and not what one person did or did not do.

Having said that, no incident in history has reached us with as much assurity as Quran has. After all, God has claimed that Quran has been preserved, not history. If you read comparative Muslim history, you will see that most incidents are narrated by a few people, and some by even a single person. How can that even be comparable to Quran - preserved by God - and reached to us by a generation-to-generation transfer? It was not given to us by one person or a few people, rather it was memorized and written by a few hundred of companions of Muhammad (pbuh), who taught it to a few thousands of their following generation and so forth.

That is the reason you will never find discrepancy between any two versions of Quran, but you will find many in historical versions!

Best Wishes

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Peace All

The honorable Fatimah (RA) was the dear daughter of the kindest most person (SAW) there has ever lived.

The displeasure she felt could not have been as a result of hearing the hadith, nor of whether she disagreed with the ruling.

The only conclusion is one of feelings.

Abu Bakr (RA) used to be direct perhaps without realising could have affected someones feelings, especially that person who has never had a harsh word spoken to, such as the daughter of the kindest individual (SAW).

It is true that speaking about those people in disdain is wrong. We have to think the best of these people.

I therefore conclude that neither Abu Bakr (RA) nor Fatimah (RA) were wrong, her (RA) feelings had been affected, and he (RA) was being strict with the ruling.

It is also not clear as to why she did not speak until her death with Abu Bakr (RA). It is not assumed that they used to speak much any way, nor are we to assume that she (RA) was the one who did not want to speak out of anger. It could just as well have been shyness for asking the question, and could also have been that there was no need to occupy the valuable time of the Khaliph on small matters.

It is only how these events are interpreted by us in the days that follow is what leads to pictures being painted to tarnish either character.

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

IF first caliph was rite about not giving the fadak to Bibi fatima s.a Then Y did Second caliph return it ?

I must add ... bibi Fatima s.a had left the world by time so Fadak was returned to Olaad-e-Fatima s.a.

the one who angers Fatima s.a Angers ALLAH Almighty.
This shld be enuff to understand that Fatima s.a would never do something against ALLAH's will.

Abt the Ahadis that Talk about Hazrat Fatima a.s having fights with Imam Ali a.s ... these Ahdis go in the same bin where narations Like Imam Ali being drunk go.

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too many 'perhaps' and 'assume'. Hardly convincing

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I dunt beleive that Hazrat Ali a.s and Hazrat Fatima fought, I am totaly against it, the hadeeth that is showed as refference is above.

sahi Muslim
*Book 031, Number 5924: *
Sahl b. Sa’d reported that a person from the offspring of Marwan was appointed as the governor of Medina. He called Sahl b. Sa’d and ordered him to abuse All Sahl refused to do that. He (the governor) said to him: If you do not agree to it (at least) say: May Allah curse Abu Turab. Sahl said: There was no name dearer to All than Abu Turab (for it was given to him by the Holy Prophet himself) and he felt delighted when he was called by this name. He (the governor) said to him: Narrate to us the story of his being nanied as Abu Turab. He said: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the house of Fatima and he did not find 'Ali in the house; whereupon he said: Where is your uncle’s son? She said: (There cropped up something) between me and him which had annoyed him with me. He went out and did not rest here. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to a person to find out where he was. He came and said: Allah’s Messenger, he is sleeping in the mosque. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to him and found him lying in the mosque and saw that his mantle had slipped from his back and his back was covered with dust and Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) began to wipe it away from him (from the body of Hadrat 'Ali) saying: Get up, covered with dust; get up, covered with dust."

Mentioning again i am a shia muslim, we consider Bibi Fatima a.s and Hazrat Ali a.s Masoom they cant have fight among each other.

Back to to Topic, orginally the issue was that 1st Caliph had Fatima a.s angered and according to hadith Who ever Angerz Fatima a.s Angers Prophet s.a.w. Now some people take ahadees as joke so even if they beleive hadeeth is authenic they really dont take it seriously. If Prophet s.a.w said it than its true thats what i believe.

Now some one brought this hadees i mentioned earlier and said Hazrat Fatima a.s got angry with Imam Ali. in this hadeeth it says " Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the house of Fatima and he did not find 'Ali in the house; whereupon he said: Where is your uncle’s son? She said: (There cropped up something) between me and him which had annoyed him with me."

Even though i dunt beleive that Imam Ali a.s and bibi Fatima fought.. i am reffering to this hadeeth that some of u guys show ,… coz it doesnt say bibi Fatima were angered at Imam Ali.. it says other wise… And am mentioning again i dunt beleiev in that either … just for u guys that when u put a hadeeth source read it bfr and read it carefully. A small reading error can make huge difference.

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

^ no it clearly means that Ali had some dispute with fatima thats why he was sleeping outside, why else wud he be sleeping outside?

.....at any rate sahl b sa'd is clearly using this hadith to highlite one of Ali's merits

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So your argument is that one was right to deny an inheritence, and the other was right to claim it? its not an all too logical stance is it. Perhaps you can read the speeches and discourses at the time, that occured between the two personalities and you might get the full picture.

Either way, its quite simple. If the Prophet (saw) asked us to hold on tight to the Quran and his Ahl ul Bayt, its really up to us to decide who the Ahl are and who are not. That is a the golden rule for anyone and thats all there is to it really.

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

[QUOTE]
Ahl ul Bayt,
[/QUOTE]

I wonder what does that mean.Oh wait, its only his family isn't it, none of the other people who did bayt are counted right. Never mind the fact that he said hold on to quran and my sunnah.

Stories from the past
Stories from the past
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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

^
Kaleem bhai… Bait (Bay, ye, te) means “home,” which is different than Bay’at (Bay, ye, AIN, te) meaning “Promise/Covenant” …

It is also true that both narrations “sunnah” and “ahl-e-bait” are found in authentic ahaadeeth on different occassions…

The famous narration that is quoted by us Sunnies most of the time is from the Sermon of the Hujjat-ul-Wida’ which has “Sunnah” part of that hadeeth…

Having said that, Ahl-e-Bait actually refers to family members… which include one’s spouse and children…

Having said that while Fatimah :razi2: was the daughter of Prophet :saw2:, there is hadeeth found in Sunni’s books mentioning that Prophet:saw2: saying that Ali :razi: and his children are also part of the ahl-e-bait of Prophet:saw2:

Hence, according to us Sunnis, Ahl-e-bait are all prophet’s wives and the family of Sydena Ali :razi: & Syedda Fatimah :razi2:

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Kaleem, for someone who doesnt seem to know the difference between the 'ahl ul bayt' and giving 'bayat', you talk surprisingly alot.

Picking up on what AQ was saying, the sunnah and the ahl ul bayt are not two different enitities. The sunnah is the way of the prophet, and you will get an authentic version from the Ahl ul bayt (as), as opposed to other 'personalities'.

By saying the two are seperate or an oxymoron, is ineffect implying that the Prophet (saw) was contradicting himself by mentioning 'sunnah' in one quote and 'ahl ul bayt' in others, when infact to the Prophet (saw) himself, shias and probably most intellectual sunnis, they are practically synonomous. You will not get one without the other.

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Re: Baagh-e-Fidak. The one that was taken away from H.Fatima (R.A) by H.Omer (R.A)

Ma Mooli, it is easy to see the difference. Muhammad:saw: was a different person than Ali or Fatima. They (Ali and Fatima) are responsible for their own deeds and actions and cannot be the same as Muhammad:saw:, no matter what you repeat here. If i go with your logic, why do you hold so much contempt against Ayesha? She will be a part of so called synonymous Ahl-ul-bayt right? or do you have different rules when it comes to wives of the prophet?

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Thank you for the correction and explanation. See the difference in spelling of how you spelled it and how Mooli spelled it. That is what got me, having said that I should have paid more attention to the context of his post. At any rate I do appreciate your explaination.

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so true…

many hadeeth that state the importance of fatima RA are narrated by ayesha RA you should give it a thought…