and the same man who claimed to be a prohet, u accept proof from his own words testifying on his own behalf… absurd???
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
and the same man who claimed to be a prohet, u accept proof from his own words testifying on his own behalf.... absurd????
[/QUOTE]
Armughal, wait for an absurd answer.... or ...NO answer...
-Salman
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SalmanNY: *
Armughal, wait for an absurd answer.... or ...NO answer...
-Salman
[/QUOTE]
Assalam Aleekum
kese he app. well one of my posts got edited for writing
about that person.app ne dekhaa mods ne MOR remove
karke free for all kardiaa. Lekn nagee likhoo uska name
I got edited.
Kher jaab tuk app hee yeh per hum ko koi ghum nahee.
app sub BARABAR kardetee heee.
take care
and keep It up.
Bro Ilm Deen
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
and the same man who claimed to be a prohet, u accept proof from his own words testifying on his own behalf.... absurd????
[/QUOTE]
so now you're equating the word of God through a Prophet to the stories compiled from heresay from just about everyone who happened to be only present or claimed to have been present at that time? .. really absurd!
so PA pra jee you only believe in the Quran and not the hadith books? since you were not there and you are not sure if the hadiths are authentic..and accordin to you Quran is enough? just wondering
that word of God has been passed on to u neither by the God Himself nor thru the direct communication of the Prophet to whom it was revealed…
it has been brought to u from the very same people who u “dont even know whether they existed or not” and “compiled from heresay from just about everyone who happened to be only present or claimed to have been present at that time”…
how come u buy it when those guys said this is word of God and u ridicule them when they say this is word of the prophet???
u believe in the mashaf-e-usmaani and u dont believe in the hadith that has been narrated by him???
this is really really absurd… 
^ solid
ab PA ji aap kiya kehtay hain ab
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
so now you're equating the word of God through a Prophet to the stories compiled from heresay from just about everyone who happened to be only present or claimed to have been present at that time? .. really absurd!
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Ibn Sadique i hope you appreciate the circularity of these arguments.. the same individuals or those after them passed these reports.. how can you testify on your own behalf?? absurd.
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PA
We all Muslims can vouch that Allah (swt) has taken upon Himself to preserve the Holy Quran. Allah (swt) has chosen the agency of these very noble people to compile and preserve the Quran so that it has reached us. Please read the history of Quran.
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how can you testify on your own behalf??
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I am sure you must have made your own CV and had put in some info regarding your Presonal Profile, right? Isn't that kind of testifying for yourself; what you are and what can do. Your strengths and Skills, right?
What you know of Islam has been passed down by these noble people. Wheather you acknowledge it or not, makes no difference!
Ouchhhhhhhhhhhhh That Gotta Hurtttttttttttttttttttt 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
that word of God has been passed on to u neither by the God Himself nor thru the direct communication of the Prophet to whom it was revealed....
it has been brought to u from the very same people who u "dont even know whether they existed or not" and "compiled from heresay from just about everyone who happened to be only present or claimed to have been present at that time"....
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that's what that 'heresay' would have you believe? do you have accurate written history of how the Qur'an was compiled.. please feel free to share it with all of us and hundreds of scholars who will be glad to point out the holes in your circular argument.
Some documents emerge after the Qur'an trying to explain how the Qur'an was compiled and by whom and you just believe them because the same people vouch for each others truthfulness??
[quote]
how come u buy it when those guys said this is word of God and u ridicule them when they say this is word of the prophet????
[/quote]
get it out of your system.. I don't take anyone's word but study the Book passed on through generations without change and make up my own mind.. I did study the 'collections' and had nothing but sheer resentment for the kind of people who would concoct such baseless stories contradicting the teachings of the Qur'an and degrading a Holy Prophet all due to the uncertain political climate surrounding their compilations and the esay access they provided to the enemies of this religion.
[quote]
u believe in the mashaf-e-usmaani and u dont believe in the hadith that has been narrated by him????
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again circular.. you believe Qur'an was compiled by people based on the stories narrated by the same people.. as absurd as Abu Huraira narrating thousands of hadiths including the one that vouches for his truthfulness... absurd.
and Sheraz Bhayya.. mujh say kya poochtay ho.. apnay aalimoN say pooch loa.. do they accept the compilations as done and accepted by Sunnis..
apnay aapas kay political jhagRay khatam kar loa.. i'll stop pointing out the flaws in the logic of either side of the divide..
Sit down together and find out a corpse of these narrations both of you find authentic.. we'll take it from there.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
apnay aapas kay political jhagRay khatam kar loa.. i'll stop pointing out the flaws in the logic of either side of the divide..
Sit down together and find out a corpse of these narrations both of you find authentic.. we'll take it from there.
[/QUOTE]
Logoun kaye apney act seedhey hotaye nahi, aa jataye hien 'Jhagrey mukkaney'.
You go boy...
-Salman
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
get it out of your system.. I don't take anyone's word but study the Book passed on through generations without change and make up my own mind.. I did study the 'collections' and had nothing but sheer resentment for the kind of people who would concoct such baseless stories contradicting the teachings of the Qur'an and degrading a Holy Prophet all due to the uncertain political climate surrounding their compilations and the esay access they provided to the enemies of this religion.
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and those "COLLECTIONS" had a Seal of Authenticity stamped on them by God Almighty Himself????
and how do you know that the very first "collection" wasnt changed????
how can u say for sure that muhammad existed???? and wasnt just another santa claus????
if u deny the hadith, u have to deny the Quran....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
and those "COLLECTIONS" had a Seal of Authenticity stamped on them by God Almighty Himself????
and how do you know that the very first "collection" wasnt changed????
how can u say for sure that muhammad existed???? and wasnt just another santa claus????
if u deny the hadith, u have to deny the Quran....
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Very true..
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*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
Very true..
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AGREED !!!
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Originally posted by armughal: *
and those "COLLECTIONS" had a **Seal of Authenticity* stamped on them by God Almighty Himself????and how do you know that the very first "collection" wasnt changed????
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there is no way of knowing.. Unless there are documentary evidence available to supoprt it.. There is reason to doubt that at all times. Going forward however it's easy to compare present copies with the originals ALL muslims consider to be the word of God.. are there challenges to it?? I didn't know..
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how can u say for sure that muhammad existed???? and wasnt just another santa claus????
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Cannot be proven. There are no records that exist. btw how do you prove that ANYONE existed?? Maybe we can arrive at an acceptible proof system and apply it.
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if u deny the hadith, u have to deny the Quran....
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rubbish.. that's what the perpetrators of disinformation had in mind.. undermine the Muslim scripture by means of conspiracies and concoctions introduced as the word of the Prophet, years later than the Book itself.
"Denying hadith" is not under discussion.. it's 'respect for the companions' we need to review.. just because political motivations at some time in Islamic history declared everyone to be a saint doesn't make them one .. everyone's human and the prophet had his share of companions who were only humans with their own faults. Just because it's said they conveyed something doesn't make it true.
Note from the Moderator:
Gentlemen (seems like there are no ladies here),
The topic of authenticity of ahadeeth, seems to be a favorite topic for a few here and is brought again and again in many discussions. This, thread, is therefore split from the other thread, and all of you are free to thrash out this issue to your heart's content. Just try to act polite :-)
Next time, if any of you (hint hint) try to side-track any other discussion by raising questions about authenticity of ahadeeth, you will likely find your post moved in this thread (if its not deleted, obviously). I don't want all threads side-tracked by this single issue.
Personally, I don't mind such discussions between knowledgable people cz it may increase the knowledge for rest of us (though I am more likely to think that such discussions uneducate more than they educate - but thats probably just me), it is my duty as a moderator to ensure all legitimate discussions on religious issues are permitted, and so shall this be too.
Good luck
Faisal
LoLzzzzzzzzzz 
^
off topic.... please move/delete this reply.... :p
PA...
ur problem is that u have mixed up between dhaeef hadith and saheeh hadith....
if u have two views about any other topic, and if one view is rejected by most reseachers either by proof of logic or historic events, u tend to believe that the most supported view is the most accuarte one....
but if u have more than one view about a hadith (some thinking it is authentic, other feeling otherwise) u come to the conclusion that the whole science of hadith is a make-up....
what i dont understand is why do u think it is so difficult or next ti impossible for a person to record the prophet's sayings....
and why cant u grab the fact that people (experts of hadith) can actually recognize if a certain hadith is authentic or not (just like people who study a certain poet can make out if a certain peice of poetry is actually his work or not)....
First three posts are on topic.. threads starts off on a tangent at armughal's post.. I protest the splitting off at my post which is totally on topic with the original thread and suggests i'm the one derailing threads..
This has happened more than once now. Just let me know and i won't post to your Sectarian Forum at all and let you kids play amongst yourselves.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
PA...
ur problem is that u have mixed up between dhaeef hadith and saheeh hadith........
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so you admit that there are weak hadeeth right? From what I know many false hadeeth were moved out because they could not be confirmed...so the possibility existsthat some hadeeth could be false.
Now, the fcat that weak hadeeth exist means that all hadeeth are not equal, why are the weak hadeeth weak, and why were some removed, because they were not considered to be strong enough, documented or supported by multiple sources.
The people who compiled them, used their best judgement and ability, but they are not infallible people, errors could be made, weaknesses could exist.
So just dont take a hadeeth as the word of God, use it as a source for supporting information, but be critical of what you read in there, and use logic and understanding of religion and the type of person our prohet was to see whether the hadeeth makes sense and that its not tampered with, fabricated, or changed due to people adding their own spin on it ..knowingly or unknowingly.