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Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Do you have doubts about the Prophet (pbuh) having guided Muslims? Since he did guide them, will his instructions be part of the Qur’an or will it be kept separate from the Qur’an? Or no such records will be existent because it was not needed and Allah (swt) would have ensured its distortions in order to misguide Muslims ?
This is not even the focus of the discussion.
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Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee as usual you will not answer questions! with obvious reasons of your own; had you answered them you would have seen how they come into play in this discussion, oh well !
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Those who do not believe in Hadiths at all (The Ahlay-Quran) and those who don't consider all Hadiths absolutely authentic (like myself) do not question (Naozobillah) the teachings of AnHazoor (saw).
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Ibrahim says: my questions was not with regards to whether you obeyed the prophet or not so think, or try and answer them and I will show you where you had failed.
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What they do question is the authentacity that Prophet (saw) said those words in the first place.
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Ibrahim says: that is what I am also going to establish when you answer my question as put to you!
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As Husnain agreed that Imam Bukhari (ra) took a few out of 40, 000 hadiths to be in his opinion authentic. This doesn't mean that they actually are as he like any other human can make mistakes.
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Ibrahim says: here is where you do not realize that Imam Bukhari did not go on a fishing trip to have caught them on his net . A compiler is one who compiles what is existing as Allah (swt) willed) when they are pious and are on a mission in Allah (swt) cause, not what he imagines or invents on his own.
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The other point you missed was that Quran has been testified to be the EXACT word of Allah. No such claim has been made about any books of Hadiths.
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Ibrahim says: who tested what? And why would the earlier generations allow any Imam to transmit what was not tested or untrue?
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So, considering any Book of Hadiths absolutely authentic, in my opinion would be going too far.
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Ibrahim says here is where, you as usual seem to do what you like based on your whims and fancies. When there is CLEAR evidence that a science had been used to ensure certain collections as ONLY “Sahih” and others are not, why would a Muslim follow you opinions? When it is CLEAR many hadiths were collected and only some were compiled into book form, why would it be too hard to understand that they have been selectively sorted?
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As far as the stoning of adulterer is considered, there are absolutely clear verses of Quran, mentioned in that thread. If you still take Bukhari's Hadiths over it then its your belief, not Islam.
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Ibrahim says I am sure it is not your version of Islam but it is Islam in essence . since it is absolutely CLEAR, verses are found concerning it in its earlier chapters the Injeel and torah.
Further more you don’t seem to understand the structure of revelations and why they exist as revelations in such a form.
Here let me requote what I just said in another thread , maybe by some fluke chance you will wake up and realize that you are not practicing Islam.
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Meaning scripture is not found in a NOVEL/epic form, where a set of instructions concerning what to do and what not to do is recorded in ascending or descending order.
Scriptures are bits and pieces of information’s** revealed as the need arises ** and later when this has been completed ( when the Prophet has fulfilled his mission) is compiled in book form as Allah (swt) wills for future generations. IT is complete in the sense that all sorts of examples, similitude and explanations may be found in it. But their final determination and expounding is best done by the assigned Prophet as only he alone is aware of, as to why it (such and such verse) was revealed.
But end of the day they were information’s revealed to the Prophet ( Pbuh) when he had questions on his mind and he need answers or had situations where he needed help in such matters. In other words it contains admonitions as well as answers for his queries.
We will not be able to know what was his question or query, which led to a certain revelation or inspiration sent to the Prophet as guidance for al his follwers> we may know some in the sense that he would talk about it to his followers and those gets recorded down as hadiths.
Thus hadiths can put light to why some revelations were given but not all. But end of the day all revelation will be compiled into book form as scripture and what led to those revelations will not be recorded in them.
Hope you understand me this far, all this needs a higher level of thinking, if you are not up to it, I cannot help you but since you asked, I am obliged to tell you.
Now, thus, when it is recorded that punish adultery in this or that manner, it could be due to questions or doubts or situation the Prophet had to face at one time or the other. For your info surah 24 (Nur) is the 102 surah revealed in Medina is a later surah
Hence prior to this the Prophet will have known what was to be done in cases of adultery and Allah (swt) would have approved and guided him to what was revealed to the earlier prophets in this regards
Where a punishment is CLEARLY altered in subsequent or new surahs, it means it is a lenient form of that punishment .
Which simply means leniency was approved whilst both the strictest form being death being understood and practiced in the beginning and the lenient form by just lashing or both can be practiced on a case to case basis.
Meaning the verse that specifies leniency in that matter are given as a mercy for those that deserve leniency in that matter, yet you may understand that even in such leniency, Allah (swt) revealed let not complacency move you from not exacting it. Meaning PUT A STOP TO THIS OR ELSE IT WILL RUIN THE SOCITY.
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Hope that helps
Was salaam
Ibrahim
