Attacking ‘innocent’ civilians – why can’t we?

Why is there such a hue and cry over this issue?

Now I know some people will like to bring up some clause from the Geneva accord or some other international law, but that by in itself stands no ground, unless you are ready to accept that the accords and international courts are just policing mechanisms meant to keep weaker nations in check and nothing else.
Generally some form of humanitarian logic is employed to say you can’t bomb innocents and people not involved directly in war, but is this logic really sufficient?

I mean come on, where are the soldiers coming from.
From that nation herself right?

How are military attacks and power financed.
Some form of Military-exclusive tax?

If you want to open the Pandora's Box of legitmizing the bombing of innocent civilians then be prepared for the huge disparity between how many suicide bombers can take out vs. a daisy cutter in downtown Baghdad or wherever it is you are advocating the targeting of civlilians.

i dont know the issue for me isn't what to expect in return etc., only that
why is attacking civilians considered out-of-bounds for normal warfare in the first place?

why this of all things is considered so unhumanitarian and wrong,
even in war!

It's called common decency.

Basic morality.

Think about it.

What you are implying is that the most ruthless, not the most principaled will win. Your Quran means nothing if the Ummah is achieved by the slaughter of innocents.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ghuLail: *
i dont know the issue for me isn't what to expect in return etc., only that
why is attacking civilians considered out-of-bounds for normal warfare in the first place?

why this of all things is considered so unhumanitarian and wrong,
even in war!
[/QUOTE]

Attacking civilians is considered out-of-bounds (in the west), due to World War I.

It was the first war in history where the people of a country who were not directly involved in fighting wars were capable of being attacked.

This occured righ from the beginning of the war, when a German warship sailed up to Scarborough, a British town of no military value, and began to shell the residential areas. This continues later on with German Zepplin raids on british and French cities, which were too inaccurate to have any chance of damaging industry, but were successful at randomly killing city residents.

Britain, the USA and france, of course, retailiated by similarly inaccurate bombing of German cities.

After the war, it was recognised that the nature of war for the first time had achieved such destructive power as to require regulation - the Geneva Convention was born.

Part of this established the criteria for the safety of civilians.

The principle laid down is that it is illegal to attack civilians, except where the strategic benefit outweighs the number of civilian casualties.

In short, you're only allowed to attack civilians when it's worth it. So you're alllowed to bomb a weapons factory, though you'll kill the civilian workers working there.

You're allowed to bomb a bridge, and deny its use to the enemy military, even if civilians use that bridge too and will be killed during the attack.

This is why no Germans were ever accused of war crimes, for Germany's decision to bomb British cities (destroying British industrial capacity was the primary target of the raids), why no German government ever accused the US or Britain for war crimes over the bombing of german cities, and, crucially, why Japan has never declared the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be a war crime (the strategic benefit of those bombings definately outweighed the casualties - it ended the war).

In fact, this is quite in line with Islamic principles of warfare. The Prophet (SAWS) very clearly forbade the killing of civilians by his soldiers, but did not object to the use of catapults at the siege of Taif - despite someone asking him if they were lawful, since projectiles that missed the walls and landed inside the city would kill civilians. The death of civilians in Taif through the use of catapults would have been outweighed by the strategic gain of breaching the walls.

The principle laid down is that it is illegal to attack civilians, except >>where the strategic benefit outweighs the number of civilian >>casualties.

thats a pretty open-ended law, no?

as for 'thinkin' about "common decency and morality" and ummah and quran being based on killing of "innocents" you obviously haven't "thought" over my post have you?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ghuLail: *

The principle laid down is that it is illegal to attack civilians, except >>where the strategic benefit outweighs the number of civilian >>casualties.

thats a pretty open-ended law, no?

[/QUOTE]

Yes, because the world is not black and white.

Lets say a man is walking towards you carrying a gun. He says that when he gets to within 20 meters of you, he's going to shoot you. He says that when he's done shooting you, he'll shoot your mother who's behind you. You have a machine gun in your hands. There's nothing immoral about shooting him dead, is there?

Now lets take the same scenario, except the man is coming up to you, holding is gun in one hand and using the other hand to hold a terrified 7 year old girl in front of him. She's completely innocent. Yet the only way to kill the man is to shoot through the little girl. What are you going to do?

To have any chance of killing the man, you'll have to kill the girl too. If you decide to save the girl by not shooting, then the man will kill you and your mother.

All of a sudden, it's not so black-and-white.

The designers of the rules of war had to try and incorporate acceptance of the reality that any armed force that never does anything that could hurt civilians would always be defeated, since it could never fight effectively.

Thhey had to strike a compromise between the fact that the road to victory is often paved with the blood of the innocent, and the fact that the shedding of the blood of the innocent is a truely horrific thing.

Hence the rule. It basically you're allowed to shed the minimum amount of innocent blood required to achieve victory.

What that minimum amount is, is up to a war crimes court to decided after the event should you be accused of carrying out a war crime.

"as for 'thinkin' about "common decency and morality" and ummah and quran being based on killing of "innocents" you obviously haven't "thought" over my post have you?"

Think about your post? Do you think that somehow this is witty, fresh thinking? Men have argued the morality of war for ages. Long ago men of good will deceded that it was best for humanity if women, children and non-combattants were spared as much as possible, despite the tempatation to kill the enemy and all they stand for....By making some thready connection that civilians pay taxes, therefore they are valid targets, you are showing a degree of barbarity, not some sort of breakthrough in moral justice.

For centuries men of ill-will have rationalized their hate through "new thought". The Holocaust was justified by Hitler invoking a "master race". Stalin and Lenin justifies the murder of millions in the name of "Communism", and a new wave of thought that would have been the pinnacle of human existance. The murder of innocents by rationalizing that they are "taxpaying Kuffirs" is just more dogmatic hate with a new wrapper.

M_S,

You should not have brought AnHazoor (saw) in the discussion. I am thoroughly disappointed.

There are no parallels between suicide (or otherwise) bombing done by a single man or woman or a group disguised as a normal person & hiding his or her intentions to attack with or without high number of civilian casualties, to the siege of Taif. The former being an unprecedented form of gorilla war with no rules or regulations with the goal to terrorize and destabilize a society and later being a declared & open war based on principles & treaties and the breach of those treaties that resulted in declaration of war with an open siege.

There would be some parallel had the Holy Prophet (saw) ever encouraged or even allowed the people residing in Mecca to disrupt or use violence in response to the consistent torture, humiliation, suffering, social & economical boycott or displacement from the homes that the new Muslim coverts faced. On the contrary his practice & his preaching was nothing but patience, prayer and forgiveness.

You MUST differentiate between the innocent and the criminal and spare the innocent.
It's not only about morality and common decency!

If we look at this, we wouldn’t allow any way of fighting or bombing, which would kill the innocent and the aggressor, especially from the Islamic point of view.
Allah Almighty says in the Qur'an: *“Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law).” (Al-Isra’: 33) *

Long ago men of good will deceded that it was best for humanity >>if .....

By making some thready connection that civilians pay taxes,
therefore they are valid targets, you are showing a degree of
barbarity, not some sort of breakthrough in "moral justice".

The murder of innocents by rationalizing that they are "taxpaying Kuffirs" is just more "dogmatic hate" with a new wrapper.

long ago:
historical traditions are no crutch for an argument to stand on.
guerilla warfare was not successful or not used earlier, so it should not be
today?
men of good will:
which men are we talking of. the world wars were not the doing of
muslim nations, were they? so any 'lessons' learnt should be only for
the guilty consciences of the men of good will in the West and a few others like
japan
taxpaying Kuffirs:
i wasnt even talking of muslim ummah attacking kuffars here. its your mind
that keeps 'wrapping' everything under religious dogma. it remains a fact that to a great
degree the state is inseparable from its citizens.

and this bull* about barbarity and moral justice, you think wars take place
to further morality in this world?!

All of a sudden, it's not so black-and-white

who ever said it is black and white, but a law cant be this open-ended. its like
saying kuch tum pehlay karo, then we'll see 'after it has been done' whether it
outweighed the strategic benefit or not. phir toa the military powers
should ask the goddam judges before attacking any one kay you think the benefit is
otuweighed or not.
tho i doubt this is what the law says in the first place.

as a rule of thumb i would say, this law and the Taif incident shows
that if killing civilians is having no effect on you winning or losing the war,
you shouldn't kill. Otherwise, wherever there is a chance that by killing them or in anyting
that involves killing them, that you might be successful in winning the war, it should be
employed.

The designers of the rules of war
Thhey had to strike a compromise between the fact that the road to >>victory
What that minimum amount is, is up to a war crimes court to decided

these courts only seem to function as keeping the weaker nations in place
not the mightier ones dont they?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ghuLail: *
as a rule of thumb i would say, this law and the Taif incident shows
that if killing civilians is having no effect on you winning or losing the war,
you shouldn't kill. Otherwise, wherever there is a chance that by killing them or in anyting
that involves killing them, that you might be successful in winning the war, it should be
employed.
[/QUOTE]

Not quite. Suppose that your army has to pass through a village in an attempt to outflank the enemy and take him by surprise.

500 people live in the village. Guardiang the entrance to the village is 1 enemy soldier with a machine gun. Clearly, killing the enemy soldier in a way is of strategic benefit and will help you win the war, as otherwise he will kill your men trying to move through the village.

But, you could kill the enemy soldier by sending a helicopter gunship to fire a missile at his position from 3 miles away, taking him by surprise and killing him before he can alert anyone or kill your soldiers. Perhaps a child playing nearby him might be killed in the explosion, but you would have secured passage for your army and achieved suprise on the enemy at the cost of one dead civilian. You could argue that the cost of one dead child to achieve this strategic advantage was morally justified.

Alternatively, you could also kill the enemy solider by droppping a small daisy cutter bomb in the centre of the village and thus kill everyone in the village, including the soldier. Now, you would have secured a strategic advantage, but given the number of civilians who had to die for you to do so through killing just 1 enemy soldier, it's more difficult to justify, and could become a war crime.


And you argue that "these courts only seem to function as keeping the weaker nations in place
not the mightier ones dont they?"", which is not true. War crimes court can be held by countries trying their own men. For example, just this week 4 Indonesian generals were aquitted of committing war crimes by an Indonesian court.


You are right though, in saying that the law is very vague. Which is why despite all the wars fought in recent history, there have been very very few war crimes tribunals. Most of those concerned deliberate action against civilians in conquered territories after hostilities were over, precisely because in a conflict zone, it is difficult to carry out any activity of strategic importance without harming civilians.

The law is intended to deal with the treatment of conquered civilians much more than civilians who happen to be in a war zone.