Re: Atheism
I think you missed the spirit of my post (possibly along with the point Rumi et al made). You're equating God with religion. If you destroy religion today, will God cease to exist tomorrow? Your response attempts to equate the Infinite with the finite. Try taking a holistic approach. The fewer parameters you impose on yourself the more opportunities you'll get to recognize Truth in places you won't look if you're a traditionalist or a literalist. If I can learn something about the Source from a religion other than Islam, or outside religion even, it follows God continues to exist outside the box you want to fit Him in. It makes God bigger than one set of beliefs. If religion is a language, God speaks in more than one language. We cannot possibly capture the Ubiquitous in a finite language. I think you're comfortable arguing that belief is a natural, instinctive state of being, so is it such a stretch of your imagination to fathom discovering God outside a Book(s)?
Part of faith is retaining the humility that we can never be entirely sure what God means. I'll be interested to see what people have to say in response to Fadl, considering we're unflinchingly confident about maiming others in the name of justice.
Peace chaibiskut
I can't equate God with religion because I know better. Perhaps I didn't explain myself too well. I take it your affirmation of being able to find God without religion is possible. This has never been my contention. My contention is "having found God, what now?"
You see the Qur'an which is wrongly seen as The Holy Book of the Muslims, is in itself codified God Speak - but unimpressively only the Muslims openly believe that. This Book is rightly or wrongly seen as the basis for the Islamic religion. This Book states that it is a Guidance to the "People Who are Conscious of God" -
Hence we can conclude that one must first believe in Deity before one can pick up this Book and benefit from it in the way it was meant, and secondly by following this Book en masse we inevitably create religion.
The argument is not about finding God - Finding God is only the first step of the journey. It is the predicament of agnostics - many of whom believe in God but deny religion its rightful place.
God being bigger than religion - is true, but a totally superfluous statement - because we are required to be religious by God and if that realisation has not been gained by the one who has found God, in reality has not found God, but merely created for themselves a convenience, their true god being their own intellect ... A sign of God being found is the desire to submit to His Will.
I too would like to know about what you have in mind about fadl, so we can begin a side discussion on that if you like. Regarding confidence, I would sooner place my confidence in forgiving people, but there can always come a time to chop off an arm to save a life. Nature teaches us this and we but need to reflect and deliberate over this idea. Even when sacrificing an animal to eat it, if we are true with our love of His creation then we should feel pain in doing so. So maiming a criminal may be very harsh in this apparent world, where we rely on such things ... but that is why when it is done we do so without bloodthirst and with pity, seeking every chance to avoid it.
There are some things about the Way of God that we love and enjoy and others that some of us will inevitably hate and despise. A submitter will not favour his own feelings above Divine law and it is categorical that Divine law favours forgiveness over penalty, but that does not mean we cease to give penalties in every instance. The threat must always be a real one to be an effective preventative measure. Besides ... according to my understanding if people could see the burdens of sins in the Hereafter they would actively "seek out" penalties in this life for themselves - and the proof of what I say is found in hadith.
