Asking God - - Did you allow the Jews to Crucify Christ?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Dear all,

Lets continue ** “Asking God” ** continued after Who is Mary (pbuh)? was answered by God.

And How did Mary (pbuh) conceive her son? was answered by God.

And Is Christ your son? was answered by God

And why the special way? was answered by God

And Who is Christ? was answered by God

And after How did Christ get such powers was answered by God

And after Who invented Christ and Mary worship? was answered by God.

Thank you Lord! for helping me understand all this , I like to know what happened to Jesus (fabricated name) in the end of his mission on earth, some say Christ was nailed to the cross others say he was hanged on a tree, I find this too difficult to accept. How can a person to whom you have supported with the Holy spirit and given miraculous powers be killed by another ordinary human being ?

Honestly speaking I could not believe this even If I were a Christian and taking Jesus as son of God…..How could they crucify him in such a painful way when he had great powers and most of all support of God.?

Surely Thou my Lord, would not abandon or sacrifice this special creation this way!

What really happened my Lord?

** Did the Jews crucify Christ? **

Ibrahim says: Glory be to thee, indeed it was absurd to belief evil men will be able to extinguish the light of the world that God sent for that time frame.

Hence it is true, You my Lord, raised him before any harm came to him, in fact even the devil knew that as is written in the Bible

Matthew 4:6. The devil said to Christ:- “If you are the Son of God,” he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: ** "`He will command his angels concerning you** , and they will lift you up in their hands, ** so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ "**

Indeed thou art the most Merciful , Most High and Supreme in Glory, who can harm a person whom You had created specially as a SIGN for mankind to be sent again as You had willed ?

Disclaimer : Actual word used by the Creator as his true and proper name is ** Allah ** in all original scriptures , ( not God as is refer to in this post for convenience ) ** Eesa (or spelt Esa , Isa, Issa) is the true name of Christ* and Mariam is the true name of the Mother of Christ. *

Ibrahim says: Any questions explicitly based on the above topic is welcome.

2

Ibrahim,

Thank you for your explanation. I have a few questions:

  1. Was this 'raised up to Himself' a physical ascension or spiritual one?

  2. Where is Hazrat Esa (as) now.

  3. Allah also says in Quran:

[quote]
016.020
YUSUFALI: Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created.
PICKTHAL: Those unto whom they cry beside Allah created naught, but are themselves created.
SHAKIR: And those **whom they call on besides Allah **have not created anything while they are themselves created;

016.021
YUSUFALI: (They are things) dead, lifeless: nor do they know when they will be raised up.
PICKTHAL: (They are) dead, not living. And they know not when they will be raised.
SHAKIR: Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised.
[/quote]

Don't the Christians call on Hazrat Isa (as) beside Allah but Allah say they are dead ... doesn't this mean Hazrat Isa (as) is dead as well?

Note: I will really appreciate if your answers are to the point. :) Thanks.

3

I never understood one thing. Why do some Muslims feel they have to "Correct" other Religion's beliefs?

You have your "Deen". Is it not enough for you?

My point is some people don't seem to see the insult in that.

How would YOU feel if a Non-Muslim comes up to you and says you are following a male chauvinstic, tribal religion that is simply unable to cope with Modern times?

And shows you a few pictures of public flogging and fully covered women as evidence?

Christians believe Jesus (NOT Isa) is the son of GOd. More power to them!!!

4

Nagarjuna before pointing out to us lesser lower caste mortals our inferiority why does everyone forget that this is a Pakistani board....most Pakistanis are Muslims and hence this sort of discussion is bound to take place? (Not that other religions cannot post such things...the response by the majority muslim readers will be negative off course) I may not agree with some of Ibrahim's posts but come on, this is the religion forum not the compliment other religions forum...you have a problem then rebut him on his arguments or just don't read them...simple

5

ibrahim is technically correct if he uses
islam and monotheism as a reference point.
but still christianity and islam originated from jewsish religen.
christians have the same right as muslims
to say their prophet is the final one
and only one.
three religens are mutually exclusive
dont accept the each others prophet.

[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited June 19, 2002).]

6

[quote]
Originally posted by mufakkar:
Nagarjuna before pointing out to us lesser lower caste mortals our inferiority why does everyone forget that this is a Pakistani board....most Pakistanis are Muslims and hence this sort of discussion is bound to take place? (Not that other religions cannot post such things...the response by the majority muslim readers will be negative off course) I may not agree with some of Ibrahim's posts but come on, this is the religion forum not the compliment other religions forum...you have a problem then rebut him on his arguments or just don't read them...simple
[/quote]

Mere Pyare mufakkar, rebutting his arguments is exactly what I am doing.
I am telling him to stick to his Religion and not insult other Religions.
He can trumpet the virtues of Islam till doomsday for all I care.
If you read his posts he is not debating but propagating his views.

7

Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all

Dear Ahmadjee

When Allah (swt) said He raised His word that He sent, what does it matter how He raised him up? So you are looking for ways to argue rather than accept the fact that Christ was raised up.

Anyway let me explain this, so that if Allah (swt) willed, you will understand this once and for all.

When the angels appear in the form of man to prophets and people who witness them, do you think they brought the body in their suit cases or borrowed one from the morgue? Sorry I am not trying to sound funny

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

but want you to THINK and understand this.

Thus when Allah (swt) had willed a prophet can be transformed /transfigured to travel to heaven and return in his body or as a spirit, that will be for Allah (swt) to decide not for us to doubt or question within the limits of our imagination.

In the case of Eesa (as) he would be transformed as he was transformed when he had his meeting with prophet Moses (as) and Prophet Ilyas (as)

Kindly read Matthew 17

  1. After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and ** led them up a high mountain by themselves.**

  2. ** There he was transfigured before them.** His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

  3. ** Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.**

Ibrahim says: thus even the prophets who have been buried are alive in their respective stations and will be summoned to appear on this plant as Allah (swt) willed.

Ibrahim says : where else except where all the Prophets are alive in their respective locations in the heavens which they have attained

Kindly read what Christ said before his time was nearing:

Ibrahim says: Most of all understand what

Ibrahim says: thus when Allah (swt) wills even the dead that you buried can come back to live and speak the truth BUT of a Surety NONE of the Prophets, messengers are DEAD. They are in their respective heavens awaiting the time of accounting when they will gather their respective flock and lead them as their IMAM and intercessor.

Ibrahim says: The Christians call on Jesus because they believe he is God who manifested as a man on earth. ** It is your own misconception that you have ended up believing prophets are dead and it is also your own misconception that Nabi Eesa (as) was killed, even though Allah (swt) says, they killed him not.**

So what do you expect? Do you expect Allah (swt) to lie ( nauzubillah) or will you accept the fact that you have misconceived due to following a teacher who had misconceived and misled numerous brothers and sisters like you?

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** No matter how difficult the path, some forge ahead; No matter how easy the going, some lag behind. **

8

Ibrahim,

Thank you for your long reply as always. Here is my response:

Answer # 1. When the angels appear to people they are not in a humanly body but it seems they are. But Isa (as) was the son of Mariyam (as) just like Hazrat Muhammad (saw) was the son of Amina (as). They don’t just disappear in thin air, never have before nor was Jesus (as).

Maybe I should rephrase my question. What do you believe happened to Jesus (as) body when he was ascended to heaven?

I would appreciate if you reply with Qurnic text. Bible also says he was crucified till death on the cross, which you and I both disagree upon. So, lets stick to something we both believe in. Thanks!

Answer # 2. All other prophets died a natural death in this world, including their master AnHazoor (saw). They are alive in heaven with their Allah in a spiritual since. If you believe the same for Hazrat Isa (as) then I & you have no disagreement.

But this is not the case. You believe that Isa (as) ascended to heaven ALIVE, while all other prophets died normal deaths.

Answer # 3.

First you are wrong when you put words in my mouth saying that I believe the Nabi Isa (as) was killed by the Jews. Absolutely **not **, as stated in the Quran very clearly. If you are still unaware of my belief, please read this thread.

Secondly, you still failed to answer the question. Let me repeat, Allah says (16:20-21):

“**And those whom they call on besides Allah **have not created anything while they are themselves created; Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised.”

It is crystal clear that Christians call upon Isa (as) and it is also evident without a shadow of doubt that he was born to Mariyam (as) and he never created anything himself, so why is it so hard to believe when Allah says THEY ARE DEAD?! Can it be any more clearer than this?

Lastly, its not me who has made up a belief that has no basis in Quran, its actually your belief that has no basis in Quran.

9

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Answer # 1. When the angels appear to people they are not in a humanly body but it seems they are.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Quote verse from Qur’an or hadith which says this? Since you believe such things are possible, why would it be difficult for Allah (swt) to raise Christ in the Body that has been transfigured?

[quote]
But Isa (as) was the son of Mariyam (as) just like Hazrat Muhammad (saw) was the son of Amina (as). They don't just disappear in thin air, never have before nor was Jesus (as).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Did you not understand how the Prophet (pbuh) was taken to heaven.

Read:

17: 1 Glory to (Allah)** Who did take His Servant for Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque** whose precincts We did Bless in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the one Who heareth and seeth (all things).

Ibrahim says : on the same similitude the ascension to heaven let to the revelation of Surah 17. Al-Israa we learn from Traditions that Mi'raj was the first occasion on which the five daily Prayers were ** prescribed to be offered at fixed times.**

Now read…..

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 4.462 Narrated by Ibn Abbas

The Prophet said, ** "On the night of my Ascent to the Heaven, I saw Moses ** who was a tall brown curly-haired man as if he was one of the men of Shan'awa tribe, and ** I saw Jesus,** a man of medium height and moderate complexion inclined to the red and white colors and of lank hair. I also saw Malik, the gate-keeper of the (Hell) Fire and Ad-Dajjal amongst the signs which Allah showed me." (The Prophet then recited the Holy Verse): "So be not you in doubt of meeting him when you met Moses during the night of Mi'raj over the heavens." (32.23)
Narrated Anas and Abu Bakra: "The Prophet said, "The angels will guard Medina from Ad-Dajjal (who will not be able to enter the city of Medina)."

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 1445 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Mas'ud

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: On the night of my Ascent (Mi'raj)** I met Abraham ** and he said to me: Muhammad, convey my salam to your people ** and tell them that Paradise is a vast plain of pure soil and sweet water and that its trees cry:** Holy is Allah, all praise is due to Allah, there is none worthy of worship save Allah, and Allah is Great.
Transmitted by Tirmidhi.

Ibrahim says: when the Prophet (pbuh) met this fellow prophets (pbut), were they in the spirit or with a body? Does the hadiths not tell you, that they had a body?

Do you doubt people in hell will not have skin and body?

Kindly read;

41:21 They will say** to their skins:** "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say: "Allah hath given us speech (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time and unto Him were ye to return.

4: 56 Those who reject Our Signs We shall soon cast into the fire: ** as often as their skins are roasted through We shall change them for fresh skins ** that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.

Thus my friend you need help, seriously you need it , because you have been altering the meaning in the Qur’an according to your whims and fancies in order to establish false beliefs. .

[quote]
Maybe I should rephrase my question. What do you believe happened to Jesus (as) body when he was ascended to heaven?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says hmm I and I thought I made myself clear, by using the quote from the Bible, oh well, transformed /transfigure means:-

** transform **

1 a :** to change in composition or structure**
b : to change the outward form or appearance of
c : to change in character or condition : CONVERT
2 : to subject to mathematical transformation
3 : to cause (a cell) to undergo genetic transformation

©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.

Transfigure means

:** to give a new and typically exalted or spiritual appearance to : transform outwardly and usu. for the better syn see TRANSFORM**

©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.

Thus whenever it was required Christ had been transformed on this planet itself, why would it difficult for his transformation again when he had to be raised up.

[quote]
I would appreciate if you reply with Qurnic text. Bible also says he was crucified till death on the cross, which you and I both disagree upon. So, lets stick to something we both believe in. Thanks!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Stop behaving like an ahmedi and think rationally, the Qur’an is not a book revealed to the Christians but to the Muslims, Hence Muslims only need to be told where the Christians had erred and not about how Allah (swt) raised the Prophet Eesa (as) . That No Christian or Muslim doubted at that time frame but you and your click which mushroomed 113 years ago have doubts concerning it because your teacher claimed Christ was buried in Kashmir ( which is the most absurd statement if ever, just like you all claimed the shroud has his blood on it) , so don’t expect the Qur’an to have new revelations added to it because of your misconceptions.

In fact the Qur’an tell us why there will be people like you who will demand such answers not knowing that all these are meant as trial for men and by not believing in what has been revealed they will end up transgressing

Kindly read:…….

17:60 Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: ** We granted the Vision which We showed thee but as a trial for men ** as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: ** We put terror (and warning) into them but it only increases their inordinate transgression!**

Ibrahim says: hence all the miracles Allah (swt) performed will be doubted and questioned by the transgressors and such visions and miracles become a stumbling block to unbelievers but are an encouragement to men of faith. Thus they are "a trial for men".

Here you are asking me to show evidence as to how Christ was raised up when you know full well that this event took place thousand of years ago and even the people who were actually present at the very place and time are giving conflicting reports as to what happened.

[quote]
Answer # 2. All other prophets died a natural death in this world, including their master AnHazoor (saw). They are alive in heaven with their Allah in a spiritual since.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Hello all other prophets were not born without a father, can you name be one other prophet that had NO father and talked from birth and became the SIGN for mankind? So you are unable to distinguish as to why this prophet was created in this way and what was the purpose behind him being raised up distinct from others.

[quote]
But this is not the case. You believe that Isa (as) ascended to heaven ALIVE, while all other prophets died normal deaths.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: When the Qur’an says he was raised up before any harm came to him, why would anyone think he died and then he was raised up. Can you show me a verse where it says he died in Kashmir and then raised up in the Qur’an or any other scripture?

[quote]
Answer # 3. Secondly, you still failed to answer the question. Let me repeat, Allah says (16:20-21): "And those whom they call on besides Allah have not created anything while they are themselves created; Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised."
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Do you understand what you read Ahmadjee? Because I gave so many verses that explained that Allah, the Most High, can do anything he pleases and in addition if those slain in Allah’s ways are alive, who do you think the prophets are dead and their earthly bodies are a requirement in the heaven

Kindly read……….

3:169 Think not of** those who are slain in Allah's way as dead.** Nay ** they live ** finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.

2: 154 And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead."** Nay they are living though ye perceive (it) not.

Ibrahim saysL kindly read Surah 16: Again..

20 ** Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created. **

21 (They are things) ** dead lifeless:** nor do thy know when they will be raised up.

Ibrahim says: ** is with regards to the idols and men’s imaginations or men delusions that men had created for themselves **

Let me quote Yusof Ali who explains this verse:

Idols are dead wood or stone. ** If men worship stars, or heroes, or prophets, or great men, they too have no life except that which was given by Allah. In themselves they are lifeless.** If they worship figments of the imagination, they are reflections in a double degree, and have no life in themselves. ** All these things will be raised up on the Last Day, in order that false worshippers may be confronted with them.** But they themselves cannot tell when that Day will be.

[quote]
It is crystal clear that Christians call upon Isa (as) and it is also evident without a shadow of doubt that he was born to Mariyam (as) and he never created anything himself, so why is it so hard to believe when Allah says THEY ARE DEAD?! Can it be any more clearer than this?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : I guess your problem is that you have been misled to belief this includes the chosen Prophets of Allah (swt). No this verse is only concerning the false prophets and false teachers who will be raised up and questioned in the presence of their followers. They are dead because they are false prophets and their works were false.

Kindly read:

Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, ** which I have not commanded him to speak,** or that shall speak in the name of other gods, ** even that prophet shall die.**

As for the TRUE apostles of Allah (swt) they have already been questioned

Kindly read

5: 116 And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).** Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it.** Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
And the rest of the apostles

5:109 ** One day will Allah gather the apostles together and ask:** "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)? They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is thou who knowest in full all that is hidden.

This is not on the day of judgment but as Allah (swt) willed and of a surety Allah (swt) need not ask such a question to the apostles since He is fully aware of what the prophets did in their life time even before they did it!

** Thus such verses are allegorical and are meant as trail for men who have doubts and limited understanding in their hearts **

[quote]
Lastly, its not me who has made up a belief that has no basis in Quran, its actually your belief that has no basis in Quran.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: that is not possible ahmadjee, you see because what I practice has been around for 1423 years having a billion strong following and I personally had verified many scriptures where the same consistent picture is given whereas what you say came about 113 years ago through a false prophet who claimed so many nonsensical things one has to wonder would any sane person be following them.

Hope that helps

And remember Allah (swt ) know best
Regards
Ibrahim

** the world lasts but an hour so spend it in obedience to your Creator **

10

Ibrahim,

I will try to summarize your long post; just so if there is someone else free enough and is following this thread besides myself, then they will get some idea what's going on:

-->For the answer to my question 1 & 2, you answered:

[quote]
when the Prophet (pbuh) met this fellow prophets (pbut), were they in the spirit or with a body? Does the hadiths not tell you, that they had a body?
Do you doubt people in hell will not have skin and body?
[/quote]

I believe heaven to be a spiritual world, where a body other than the one you and I have, at this moment will be given to you. It's not the same physical body.

The hadiths about Miraj that you quoted actually strengthens my belief as it mentions all the prophets that died natural death here on our physical earth, including Moses (as), Ibrahim (as) and so was the mention of Isa (as). There were no buts, ifs, or special cases involved in his discription in the Hadiths. And so its normal to conclude that as Moses (as) died and ascended to heaven, so did Jesus (as)!

Prophets are not ascended with their worldly physical body; and the only prophet who is reported to have this spiritual ascension while still living is the great Holy Prophet of Islam Hazat Muhammad (saw). The basis of my belief in the Miraj being a spiritual one is based on the following verse:

[quote]
017.093
YUSUFALI: "Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"
PICKTHAL: Or thou have a house of gold; or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be Glorified! Am I aught save a mortal messenger?
SHAKIR: Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger?
[/quote]

What a glorious sign it would have been, if Allah had taken AnHazoor (saw) up in front of the disbeliveers, hurled into heavens; but did he? No.

When the greatest of all prophets is told by Allah to say that he is a "mortal messenger" in response to the disbeliveers asking him to ascend to heaven, then who is Isa (as) in comparison? The verse very clearly shows that mortal messengers do not ascend to heaven with their physical body. Neither did AnHazoor (saw), nor did Isa (as).

If you think the Hazrat Isa (as) 's miraculous birth (which BTW is not out of this helm of science and physical phenomenon of birth as we know it) made him a special kind of prophet (Naozobillah) unlike my beloved Holy Prophet (saw), then here are a few verses that state he, Jesus Son of Mary, is not different than all other prophets:

"**And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, (all) Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn your back on your heels?" (3:144)

"The Messiah, son of Mary, WAS only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food." (5:75)**

I hope you notice the difference in tenses of the above two verses.

[quote]
Here you are asking me to show evidence as to how Christ was raised up when you know full well that this event took place thousand of years ago and even the people who were actually present at the very place and time are giving conflicting reports as to what happened.
[/quote]

I will take that as a no. Thank you for at least admitting that its your own interpretation of the belief which you do not have any evidence of.

-->For my question # 3, your response was:

[quote]
Idols are dead wood or stone. If men worship stars, or heroes, or prophets, or great men, they too have no life except that which was given by Allah. In themselves they are lifeless
[/quote]

So, basically you consider the ayat: "And those whom they call on besides Allah have not created anything while they are themselves created; Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised." ONLY related to woods, stones, etc. and not other human beings like Hazrat Isa (as) whom people call on beside Allah.

I believe stars, heavens, stones, earth, trees AND human beings, including Hazrat Isa (as) are covered in this verse. Please provide a valid proof why do you think Hazrat Isa (as) is not included & is an exception when Allah says "those whom they call beside Allah"? And indeed they are dead in the physical sense, only alive with their Allah in spirit.

11

I do not appreciate you judging me based on your interpretation of the Holy verses, and calling me among those heretics who question & are stubborn on their belief! As I give that right only to my Allah. If you put those verses on to your ownself, then you will see that they apply to you aswell- the argument goes both ways. Let Allah decide who is at the right path and who has it wrong.

Stick to the topic and provide your arguments related to it.

Secondly, it will be helpful if you can write a paragraph or two stating what you actually believed happened to Hazrat Isa (as), like I did in the thread I mentioned before. It will give me a better idea of where you are coming from and will us both any misunderstanding.

I hope you will take the above from the best of my intentions to carry on a fruitful discussion. Jazak’Allah!

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited June 20, 2002).]

12

ahmadjee,

sorry to interrupt but I need to clarify one thing about 16:20 and 16:21..

Please Read with context:

Shakir

[an-Nahl 16:19] And God doth know what ye conceal, and what ye reveal

PakistaniAbroad: Pause here. we're talking about people who are 'concealing' something. Throughout the Qur'an these have been the people of the Book or people who have had the scripture before.. who are totally unlike the Mushrikeen-e-Makkah who never had a scripture sent to them.

[an-Nahl 16:20] And those whom they call on besides Allah have not created anything while they are themselves created;

PakistaniAbroad: We know from 5:116 that these people did start worshipping Jesus and his mother as Gods in derogation of Allah, after Jesus departed, which is why Allah discusses it with Jesus letting Jesus clarify that he indeed did not instruct them to do so but when he was taken away by Allah he had no means of knowing what they did, only Allah knows what they did.

[an-Nahl 16:21] Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised.

PakistaniAbroad: Since the issue of 'raising' yub-asoon is addressed, it's abundantly clear that this is the raising AGAIN of the dead. Yusufali himself when translating 15:36 inserts (dead) to mean this as the raising of the dead:

Yusufali (15:36) (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised. (yubasoon)

PakistaniAbroad: So we understand that the verse is not talking about lifeless objects, but lifeforms who will be raised again. Your point of view ahmadjee gets more strength from this verse as lifeless objects do not get raised again.

13

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
I will try to summarize your long post; just so if there is someone else free enough and is following this thread besides myself, then they will get some idea what's going on:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all

Ahmadjee dear, what you have just done is spliced out my questions in order to avoid them and try to imply that I only said such and such. Now If you want to play this dirty game that is your own works BUT you will have to answer the questions I posed in order to discuss or have fruitful dicussion.

Let me re quote what you snipped out without giving me an answer!

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: Answer # 1. When the angels appear to people they are not in a humanly body but it seems they are.
Ibrahim says: Quote verse from Qur'an or hadith which says this? Since you believe such things are possible, why would it be difficult for Allah (swt) to raise Christ in the Body that has been transfigured?
[/quote]

[quote]
I believe heaven to be a spiritual world, where a body other than the one you and I have, at this moment will be given to you. It's not the same physical body.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: than your believe is based on error and most likely originating from Hindu misconceptions

Now read and comprehend how OUR Lord created us .

3:59 This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: ** He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.**

15: 28 Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man ** from sounding clay from mud molded into shape;**

Ibrahim says now where did act of creating take place? It was in heaven so man will be with a physical body in heaven or anywhere else he may be as per the will of Allah (swt) not in the spirit.

Thus when you say men will be in the spirit with another body that is not physical you are in error and have crossed into the boundaries of other creations who have been created in the spirit and given a form that is not physical .

Nevertheless, those who are in heaven go through a transformation, which we (those human being on this planet) will go through when we are raised again.

If you are saying it is not the SAME, in the sense that it (body) was left behind on this planet, that too you are wrong because we will be raised out of this body but in a transfigured state that will be eternal, where death (which is part of the trial for this planet only) is removed from us, as originally created in the first instance.

[quote]
The hadiths about Miraj that you quoted actually strengthens my belief as it mentions all the prophets that died natural death here on our physical earth, including Moses (as), Ibrahim (as) and so was the mention of Isa (as). There were no buts, ifs, or special cases involved in his discription in the Hadiths. And so its normal to conclude that as Moses (as) died and ascended to heaven, so did Jesus (as)!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : that would be another error because, you claim further down quoting surah 16: 20-21, that they will all be raised up on the day of judgment. So which is which? you cannot have it both ways you know? Again here you are willing to accept that Moses had ascended o heaven, so show me where in the Qur'an or bible it says such a thing? ( since you ask for such evidence when I say the Qur'an wuil have no records of Christ ascension )

Since the hadiths I quoted all claim they were seen by the Prophet (pbuh) , it means they had a physical body whereas spirits cannot be seen by men.

[quote]
Prophets are not ascended with their worldly physical body; and the only prophet who is reported to have this spiritual ascension while still living is the great Holy Prophet of Islam
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : that would be another error based on your own works, since what ever Allah (swt) willed none can change, so when Allah (swt) created man from clay, they will remain as made of clay, be it in heaven or earth. Now your understanding is flawed because you don't understand that Allah (swt) will transform the body when it is to enter heaven as such it will still remain as originally designed that being made from clay ( a physical body)

You may be under the impression that the aging body had died and gone to dust on this planet , but that is due to you limited understanding whereas Allah (swt) can transform the body of the Prophets, hence they have eternal life and will not be aging ever in heaven.

Kindly read………

[quote]
36: 81 ** "Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?"** Yea indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme of skill and knowledge (infinite)!

82 Verily when He intends a thing His command is "Be" and it is!

37: 11 Just ask their opinion: ** are they the more difficult to create or the (other) beings We have created? Them have We created out of a sticky clay!**

17: 49 They say: "What! when we are reduced to bones and dust should we really be raised up (to be) a new creation?"

50 ** Say: "(Nay!) be ye stones or iron **

51 "Or created matter ** which in your minds is hardest (to be raised up)--(yet shall ye be raised up)!"** Then will they say: "Who will cause us to return?" Say: "He Who created you first!" Then will they wag their heads towards thee and say "When will that be?" Say "Maybe it will be quite soon!

17: 99 See they not that Allah Who created the heavens and the earth ** has power to create the like of them (anew)?** Only He has decreed a term appointed of which there is no doubt. But the unjust refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude.

30: 27 It is He Who begins (the process of) creation; ** then repeats it; and for Him it is most easy. ** To Him belongs the loftiest similitude (We can think of) in the heavens and the earth: for He is Exalted in Might Full of Wisdom

29:19 See they not how Allah originates creation** then repeats it:** truly that is easy for Allah.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: thus it is your and your teachers misconceptions that you have been led to believe Prophets are not in their physical bodies but have become spirits in heaven with another body

[quote]
Hazat Muhammad (saw). The basis of my belief in the Miraj being a spiritual one is based on the following verse: 17.93
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee, always try to FIRST understand the context of a verse before trying to use it in the general sense. So nowhere in that verse does a spiritual sense being implied verse 17:93 is about unbelievers making all sorts of demands since they could not believe the Prophet (pbuh) ascended to heaven.

Now the context for the above verse is
17: 90 They say: ** "We shall not believe in thee ** until thou cause spring to gush forth for us from the earth

Now it is obvious that those who would not believe had demanded all sorts of things.
Hence Allah (swt) conveyed to the Prophet (pbuh) instead of meeting such demands just say to them……. ** Say: "Glory to my Lord! am I aught but a man an apostle?"**

Ibrahim says: meaning NO! Allah (swt) will not be meeting their demands and the Prophet is only His apostle. ( since such demands have been met before and it changed nothing, for people declared that it was only magic or sorcery after their demands were met)

[quote]
What a glorious sign it would have been, if Allah had taken AnHazoor (saw) up in front of the disbeliveers, hurled into heavens; but did he? No.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : O please, all that you can imagine had been performed for mankind by various Prophets and Messengers at various time frames, but that did not cause those who wished to reject the message to keep on rejecting it.

[quote]
When the greatest of all prophets is told by Allah to say that he is a "mortal messenger" in response to the disbeliveers asking him to ascend to heaven, then who is Isa (as) in comparison?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: here again you have been misled, to compare prophets based on what they had been assigned to do is utterly wrong and UNISLAMIC

NOW read

2: 285 ** The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord ** as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah His angels His books and His Apostles ** "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Apostles." ** And they say: "We hear and we obey; (We seek) Thy forgiveness Our Lord and to Thee is the end of all journeys.

3:84 Say: "We believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes and in (Books) given to Moses Jesus and the Prophets from their Lord;** we make no distinction between one and another among them and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).**

Ibrahim says thus when you make distinctions to who is greater, you have failed to understand Allah (swt) or the Qur'an .

The criteria here is that different Prophets had different assignments and they are all to be considered equals with differing missions . We are Not to judge them on the basis of who did what!

Second all Prophets are mortals in this planet but Christ was created differently for a different purpose so he was raised on account of that purpose and when Christ will return he too will die and will be buried next to the Prophet of Islam

[quote]
The verse very clearly shows that mortal messengers do not ascend to heaven with their physical body. Neither did AnHazoor (saw), nor did Isa (as).
[/quote]

Ibrahim says No it does not, as I said you have skipped the context and have failed to understand the essence of scripture where it teaches that men have repeatedly made demands and the Final prophet (pbuh) will not entertain such demands anymore that is why he is the final prophet for mankind. Meaning Allah (swt) had enough and had entertained all that He wished to entertain befeor revealing the FINAL scripture .

[quote]
If you think the Hazrat Isa (as) 's miraculous birth (which BTW is not out of this helm of science and physical phenomenon of birth as we know it) made him a special kind of prophet (Naozobillah) unlike my beloved Holy Prophet (saw), then here are a few verses that state he, Jesus Son of Mary, is not different than all other prophets:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : here you are trying to pit one Prophet verses another out of ignorance, since such things are not to be done. Yet each prophet had been vested with different powers and ways to fulfill their mission as Allah (swt) willed. Here itself you deny what was given to some Prophets by saying the virgin birth is not a miracle! How silly can you get , later you will deny powers given to Musa (as) and others to achieve their missions too. No! Islam does not teach such things where you compare a prophet based on what they were given. ** In Islam all Prophets are equal and have fulfilled what Allah (swt) assigned to them.**

[quote]
"And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, (all) Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn your back on your heels?" (3:144)
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: the context here is

3: 137 ** Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you:** travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected truth.

3:144 Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: ** many were the Apostles that passed away before him.** If he died or were slain will ye then turn back on your heels? ** If any did turn back on his heels not the least harm will he do to Allah;**

lets check what you are saying for its accuracy.

[3:144]
YUSUFALI:

Muhammad is no more than a messenger: ** many Were the messenger that passed away before him.** If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

PICKTHAL:

Muhammad is but a messenger, ** messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him.** Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.

SHAKIR:

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; ** the messengers have already passed away before him;** if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: So Ahmadjee, where does it say ** "ALL" ** and what translation are you quoting from?

[quote]
"The Messiah, son of Mary, ** WAS only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him.** And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food." (5:75)
[/quote]

Ibrahim says again you have missed the context , so lets see what is this passage about.

5:73 ** They do blaspheme who say:** Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. ** If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy) verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.**

hence verse 75 conveys that Jesus too was only a messenger and not a part of Allah (swt) or his son.

Now lets compare your translation with others.

[quote]
[5:75]
YUSUFALI:

Christ the son of Mary ** was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him.** His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

PICKTHAL:

The Messiah, son of Mary, ** was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him.** And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

SHAKIR:

The Messiah, son of Marium ** is but a messenger; messengers before him have indeed passed away;** and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says So ahmadjee , what translation are you quoting from?

[quote]
I will take that as a no. Thank you for at least admitting that its your own interpretation of the belief which you do not have any evidence of.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says You are WRONG! what I said was such matters will be detailed only in the Bible and not the Qur'an. And the Bible due to its corruption has lost much of its contents , so that too might be lacking in details and unreliable.

** Most of all, I am saying such matters are of NO consequences for Muslims and have not been doubted upon by Christian or Muslims for more than 1423 years. **

[quote]
I believe stars, heavens, stones, earth, trees AND human beings, including Hazrat Isa (as) are covered in this verse. Please provide a valid proof why do you think Hazrat Isa (as) is not included & is an exception when Allah says "those whom they call beside Allah"? And indeed they are dead in the physical sense, only alive with their Allah in spirit.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Kindly read.

35:40 Say: ** "Have ye seen (these) `partners' of yours whom ye call upon besides Allah?" ** Show me ** what it is they have created in the (wide) earth.** Or have they a share in the heavens? ** Or have We given them a Book from which they (can derive) clear (evidence)?** Nay the wrongdoers promise each other nothing but delusions.

Ibrahim says: hence the material things ** that are DEAD** , that others call upon besides Allah (swt) are those

1) they have not been seen

2) they have No revealed books to give CLEAR evidence

3) they have nothing to show for as their works.

Ibrahim says read again…….

7:191 Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners** things that can create nothing but are themselves created?**

192 ** No aid can they give them nor can they aid themselves!**

193 If ye call them to guidance ** they will not obey:** for you it is the same whether ye call them or ye hold your peace!

194 Verily those whom ye call upon besides Allah ** are servants like unto you:** call upon them and let them listen to your prayer if ye are (indeed) truthful!

195 ** Have they feet to walk with? or hands to lay hold with? or eyes to see with? or ears to hear with? ** Say: "Call your god-partners scheme (your worst) against me and give me no respite!

196 "For my protector is Allah ** Who revealed the Book (from time to time)** and He will choose and befriend the righteous.

197 "But those ye call upon** besides Him are unable to help you ** and indeed to help themselves."

198 If thou callest them to guidance ** they hear not.** Thou wilt see them looking at thee but they see not.

199 Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; but turn away from ** the ignorant. **

Ibrahim says: BTW Ahmadjee, what is this physical sense and spirit thing, when did Islam get its understanding from Hinduism. And when did I make such statements?

Now I keep commenting that you are an ahmedi because you keep demonstrating that your understanding is based on YOUR beliefs and NOT Islam, which tells us why you keep rejecting anything that does not conform to your boundary markers which your teacher established for you.

Further it also tells us why you do not want to answer questions but only ask questions.

Now If you are looking for a discussion I expect to be answered just as you expect to be answered not evade what you want and avoid discussion where possible since your belief will crumble the moment you attempt to do that. This is not trying to intimidate you or abuse you based on your belief but discussion cannot be one sided you know!

So STOP making allegations and excuses and discuss the topic , by answering my questions.

Hope that helps

Regards
Ibrahim

** we ask: what has he left behind? Angels ask: what has he sent ahead? **

14

Ibrahim,

Thank you for your long post and answers, I appreciate your time.

Now our discussion has evolved into:

# 1. Is heaven exactly the same as this physical world or different? You seem to believe it’s the same and thus; Jesus is 2001 years old today and still living.

I, on the other hand believe that it’s not physical, as we understand our world. Maybe spiritual and the verses that talk about the heaven contain parables, and should not be taken literally.

**#2: **Second, another interesting point you raised:

I didn’t know you believed Christ was not mortal, even though I quoted the verse that states he is just like other messengers of God.

Anyway, I believe these two points requires a separate thread of their own. Let me first deal with the thread about abrogation and I will open the threads about heaven and Jesus. I assure you, it will be an interesting discussion.

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited June 20, 2002).]

15

As far as the verse I quoted: *"And those whom they call on besides Allah have not created anything while they are themselves created; Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised.” * in evidence of Isa (as) natural death; my question was:

[quote]
Please provide a valid proof why do you think *Hazrat Isa (as) is not included *& is an exception when Allah says "those whom they call beside Allah"?
[/quote]

Your argument only states why trees, stones and other non-living things should be included but it lacks evidence why Hazrat Isa (as) to whom the Christians call upon very clearly do not come under “those whom they call on beside Allah”. Please revise your argument.

Also read what **PakistaniAbroad **had to say about the verse; where he points out the later part of the verse “and they know not when they shall be raised.” ... meaning the living beings that will surely include Hazrat Isa (as).

16

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
Now our discussion has evolved into:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Sorry Ahmadjee the discussion did not evolve into anything else but you CHOSE to avoid answering my questions and in order to save your face you are again skirting the issues and changing the topic into another.

Keep playing this game, it seems that is the only way the followers of Mirza Gulam can maintain their false beliefs.

[quote]
# 1. Is heaven exactly the same as this physical world or different?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: why the doubts when Allah (swt) told you it is the same BUT better in all aspects in so many verses.

Kindly read:

41: 9 Say: ** Is it that ye Deny Him Who created the earth in two Days?** And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

10 ** He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it** and bestowed blessings on the earth and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion in four Days in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (sustenance).

11 Moreover He Comprehended in His design the sky and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together) in willing obedience

12 ** So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights and (provided it) with guard.** Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might Full of knowledge.

[quote]
You seem to believe it’s the same and thus; Jesus is 2001 years old today and still living.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says Don’t be a naive no one knows when Christ was born, so be rational Christ is not 2001 years old. But most of all do you know what is eternal?

In heaven we all become eternal, meaning there will be NO age, ageing or death .

Now let me prove to you that heaven and earth are similar

Kindly read

5: 112 Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary!** can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?"** Said Jesus: "Fear Allah if ye have faith."

113 They said: ** "We only wish** to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts ** and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth;** and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.

114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands) that there may be for us for the first and the last of us a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).

115 ** Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: ** but if any of you after that resisteth faith ** I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples.**

Ibrahim says: on account of this event where Christ first drank wine on this planet and told them that it was his blood, in order to prevent it ever being drank again. those that did not believe even after eating and drinking the servings from heaven and tried to hoard some of it were changed into apes and swine as warned by Allah (swt)

Read

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 5150 Narrated by Ammar ibn Yasir

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The table was sent down from Heaven with bread and meat, ** and they were commanded not to be unfaithful nor to store up for the morrow. But they were unfaithful, sorted up and laid by for the morrow, so they were changed into apes and swine."**

Transmitted by Tirmidhi.

[quote]
I, on the other hand believe that it’s not physical, as we understand our world. ** Maybe** spiritual and the verses that talk about the heaven contain parables, and should not be taken literally.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: sure you can belief what you want and when it suits you can say I will take this literal and when it is against you, I will take that allegorical according to your whims and fancies and according to your false teachers.

[quote]
Ibrahim earlier: Second * all ** Prophets are mortals in this planet but Christ was created differently for a different purpose so he was raised on account of that purpose and when Christ will return he too will die and will be buried next to the Prophet of Islam question of: *

Ahmadjee: I didn't know you believed Christ was not mortal, even though I quoted the verse that states he is just like other messengers of God.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: don’t be silly, do you not understand what ** ALL Prophets ** means ( includes Christ because he too was a prophet) . BUT he was an UNIQUE creation that was created as a SIGN for mankind for the coming of the hour.

[quote]
Anyway, I believe these two points requires a separate thread of their own. Let me first deal with the thread about abrogation and I will open the threads about heaven and Jesus. I assure you, it will be an interesting discussion.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : All you are saying ahmadjee is that, you wish to hide because you cannot find anything else to refute me. Which is a shame since your belief is false and what I have shown is explicitly CLEAR.

Now it is also abundantly clear that you do not even have the courtesy to tell me where you are getting your Qur’anic verses in English from, since they have been edited to give erroneous meanings.

Now if you were looking for a fruitful discussion as you claimed why this hide and seek game which only the unbelievers play?

Regards
Ibrahim

** On Allah you should rely IF you are believers **