For those who have said what does this achieve? Shias and Sunnis both believe in Ashura so its not for any “justification” of faith or anything of the sort but is only to add another interesting dimension to what we all already believe in.
I have not read up on anything relating to this but I think for the most objective and impartial understanding of the what OT verse is about in the historical context, it may be best to contact someone with a related academic field of research or the National/History Museum who might be able to refer to Greek or other older texts because IMO they provide the closest translations to the original than any modern version or translations which do happen do differ. No offence or disrespect intended Drizzt. I think if I were to research this I would start by finding out where in relation to Kerbala (Ninevah) the area of Carchemish would be on a Babylonian map, if it is the case mentioned above.
Faisal I’m sure you would agree with me not everything predicted is based on Nostradamus fever. Especially if you believe that certain narrations in the Biblical scriptures for example do give predictions about Prophet Muhammed and his Prophethood, after Jesus, eg Deut. “From the Mount Paran (Mecca)”, Isiah, “camel rider with 10,000 believers” etc. This is confirmed in the Quran “ANd they (Christians and Jews) knew him (Muhammad) better than their own”.
As for mention of Ashura in the Quran, Shia scholars and commentators do interpret certain verses that might highlight it. Off the top of my head verses in Al-Fajr, “By the 10 nights” and the last verses about nafsul mutmainna they believe COULD refer to Ashura and Imam Hussain (it could also very well be about Night of Qadr during odd nights of last ten days of Ramadhan). Obviously they have not reached this conclusion on an ad hoc basis and have based their conclusion on in-depth research and reasoning of Quranic verses.
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*Originally posted by Rhia: *
the last verses about nafsul mutmainna they believe COULD refer to Ashura and Imam Hussain
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i always thought it refered to ANY 'nafs-e-mutmainna' as a general rule of thumb that it gives glad tidings to all those qualify for this status... Hadrat Imam Hussain Radi ALLAH-O-Ta'ala included....
You are right. Generally it could refer to "those who bear trials with patience for God". But it doesn't rule out specific indication either. I forgot to add I don't think anyone can deny that Hussain (as) IS the ultimate model of this virture.
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*Originally posted by Rhia: *
Faisal I'm sure you would agree with me not everything predicted is based on Nostradamus fever. Especially if you believe that certain narrations in the Biblical scriptures for example do give predictions about Prophet Muhammed and his Prophethood, after Jesus, eg Deut. "From the Mount Paran (Mecca)", Isiah, "camel rider with 10,000 believers" etc. This is confirmed in the Quran "ANd they (Christians and Jews) knew him (Muhammad) better than their own".
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If we were talking about an historical event where people had doubts whether it happened or not, then it makes sense to investigate divine texts to find proof. Those who believe in the authenticity of divine texts will find such examples as re-assuring.
The events at Karbala, are not doubted by any muslim (maybe some do, I don't know). Both shias and sunni agree on the basic facts of the event and that Hazrat Imam Hussain (Razi Allah Tallah) and his companions were killed by the army of the ruler Yazeed. So I am really not sure what purpose it will serve to show that this event was foretold in OT or Quran. Yeah, except "another interesting dimension", as you point out.
Re: OT text, which was the crux of this thread.... well, I think I already gave my opinion. If someone wants to go ahead and get it analyzed by Greeks or Latins, by all means, go ahead.
Re: OT text, which was the crux of this thread.... well, I think I already gave my opinion. If someone wants to go ahead and get it analyzed by Greeks or Latins, by all means, go ahead.
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That was only to bring in some relevancy to this topic of discussion as given by the title. But yes you and I are basically saying the same thing :)
111.Allah has purchased of the belivers their persons and their goods;for theirs(in return)is the Garden(jannat):they fight in His cause, and slay and are are slain: a promise binding on Him in Truth, through the Law , the Gospel and the Quran (meaning they are promised the garden in bible gospel and Quran): and who is more faithful to his convenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded; that is the supreme achivement.
now a person can say that this refers to the ones who do Jihad . and the ans s no b/c when ever Allah said to mujahideen do jihad he says first give me your belongings(mal) then give me your life.
but this ayat is deff it says first give me life then belongings like in karbala first they all got killed then their things were taken..
and Allah has made jannat theirs and also says that first they kill then get killed now in karbala first they all killed then they all got killed
Those that turn (to Allah)in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him, that wander in devotion to the cause of Allah,that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer;that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limits set by Allah; (these do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Belivers.
this ayat tells us the charactristics of these ppl
they are the ones who pary to him do jihad,do namaz and they leave the wrong path and come to the right one meaning Islam< now in karbala there were about 6 of these who were on the wrong path and turned on to the right ( hur,his son,hisbrother,wahab kalbi and his wife)
and also in the surah(37) where it talks abt the sacfifice of Ismail
there is a ayat(105) "thou hast already fulfilled the vision..."so the vision was that he was sacrifing his son but in reallity he didnt... so now Imam Hussain who is from the ofspring of Ibrahem was sacrified in karbala... and by including Imam's sacrifice the tafseer of the Quran is complete.otherwise its not
107." then we ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice".....
meaing we replaced it with a greater sacrifice then this ..so now who can say there was a more greater sacrifce then that of Imam Hussain in the history of Islam...there was nothing greater then Imam Hussain's ...
subhanallah we know Karbala is reall and all of us real muslims(meaning both sunni and shia) can speak for the truth againt those who say tht karbala never happend........and bring the real Islam out :) may Allah give u all the power to do this ....
[QUOTE] Originally posted by delight_*: *
ok here goes..
surah al bara'h # 9
ayat 111+112
111.Allah has purchased of the belivers their persons and their goods;.....
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Your interpretation:
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.....when ever Allah said to mujahideen do jihad he says first give me your belongings(mal) then give me your life.
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I don't understand, as per this ayat, Allah swt "purchased".... not "saying to give"... also there is no "first" and "then" in the translation, these are your interpretations, right?
I don't understand, as per this ayat, Allah swt "purchased".... not "saying to give"... also there is no "first" and "then" in the translation, these are your interpretations, right?
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say again plz i dont understand what u want to know
by seeing the OT and Quranic reference, the argument and the interpretation…all i have to say Subhan allah… aap ne kamal kardiya. yaani woh din aane wala hai ke dhai baray banane ki tarkeeb bhi bible mein talash karli jaayegi
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ashura clearly foretold in Old Testament!
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*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
What we have here is a series of prophecies conveyed to Jeremiah about various nations and peoples - Egypt, Babylon, the Philistines etc. - which we see listed not in chronological order but grouped nation by nation.
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Absolutely correct, Iqbal and Lord Drizzt.
Too frequent people make the mistake to quote a verse from the Bible out of context.
i didnt say they killed after getting killed i said first they killed then got killed and then their belingings were taken afterwards...
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Here is excerpt from your post:
"and Allah has made jannat theirs and also says that first they kill then get killed now in karbala first they all killed then they all got killed"
What I am trying to say is that it is true for almost all conditions, you kill then get killed, there is NO way (to my knowledge) where you can get killed THEN kill. So your using this to prove your point is useless. These ayats can be used by anyone to show that this incident was mentioned in Quran.
no has read it carefully... and plus im not a genius so i can make miistakes too but i dont think i did here
and i was trying to say kay pehlay karbala walon nay pehlay enimies ko mara our phir woh khod shaheed ho gaye ....but that wasnt the point
??