Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Since we are talking strategically, I gather that you would prefer the current setup? I don't see any chance of India giving up IOK or even the Valley at this point. I can understand where you are coming from but putting an end to the Kashmir issue is worth a lot more than having a few road/rail links with China. Some points:

  • Setting up an independent Kashmir will be a moral victory for Pakistan and more importantly, will win a lot more goodwill than taking over Srinagar.
  • Although I still believe that Kashmir is geographically linked to Pakistan and will forever remain so, we simply can not justify the military spending and repeated confrontations with India. I do NOT want to see another Mumbai. This will effectively pull the rug from the Islamists and extremists who are railing against 'Hindu India's' occupation.
  • Most importantly, the independence of Kashmir might be the most palatable option (excluding the status quo) for India. While India would love significant territory, so would Pakistan. Therefore, it would not really be either nations victory in the territorial sense.

Finally, we need to move forward, not forgetting the cause of Kashmir, but rather focusing on our economic fundamentals.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Oh the irony; whether it was intentional or not - I can't seem to tell. However you've just proven my point.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

because we dont send terrorists to pakistan, because we condemn killing of minorities and majority people equally,because we dont burn girl schools,we dont say weak minded rabble if any justice seeker asks about killed pundits, we are fascist we give freedom of speech, we dont blast shrine of saints , for your strong mind it should not be difficult to understand , majority of people , i mean 90 percent people of india are by heart secular , we dont hate pakistanis, but i am sorry you hate everything indian except few likes of mrs. arundhti roy.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

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i think what you say is the only solution ,but it needs very strong will powerd leadership to put forword and carry out this discision , extreme rightist and bigots will take it very offensively , leaders will face constant danger of assasination.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

and you expect a constructive conversation with this attitude on a pakistani forum? seriously dude why did you bother to register on a pakistani forum?

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

1) Terrorsim - no no no India is never ever involved in terrorism but it was ISI all the time.
2) Killings - no no no it wasn't Indian govt. that kills Sikhs, Christians and Muslims but it is ISI all the time.
3) Freedom of speech - no no no how can Pakis give freedom of speech coz all is left in India, again the handy work of ISI.

LMAO... I wonder what else they teach in India.. Earth is flat.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

I think its critical is to have Indians and Pakistani discuss this possibility, whether its Track II, People to People or even at the sidelines of world summits.

I know that there will many issues related to this proposal for Kashmiri independence, including the question of Kashmiri nationality, an orderly withdrawal of both countries forces, and what type of independence Kashmir should enjoy.

I sat in on a working committee at Johns Hopkins and some of the ideas thrown around included:

  • - Demilitarization of the area.
  • - An independent Kashmir being required to deal equitably with both India and Pakistan in areas of water/resource allocation, free trade, and communication links.

The goal is to resolve this matter and remove the Kashmir issue as the primary dispute between the two countries.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

I haven't proven your point b/c you have none to begin with. I stated my personal opinion in the previous post(not the official Pakistani policy). And instead of you engaing me in an intellectual debate, you decided to take the easy route(fashionable these days) of Pakistan bashing. Churchill said it right: "There are no permanent friends, only permanent interests."

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

My post was based on strictly strategic perspective and yes I do prefer the current setup. I believe, that if we can't get the Jammu and Kashmir(IOK), then it is better to maintain the status quo. I agree with you that I dont see India giving up one inch of Jammu and Kashmir. I personally do not care so much of the moral victory and that is b/c countries with the biggest GDP have usually dictated the history. Like you, I also completely do not support any sort of terrorism in India or any where else. IMHO, the best way forward for both countries is to tackle the smaller issues(Siachen, Sir Creek, water) b/w the two South Asian giants.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Strategically speaking it is incredibly foolish for Pakistan to maintain the status quo. I’ll give you three distinct reasons why supporting an independent Kashmir is in Pakistan’s (and Indias) benefit:

Defense: Our military doctrine is very India centric and set up to thwart Indian attacks into Azad Kashmir + Punjab. Instead of having this rigid 60+ year old policy, we need to shift towards the rapid deployment model, where the well trained armed forces are fitted with high tech equipment, to inflict maximum damage on the enemies. Think of the Israeli Defense Forces as a model. Unfortunately due to the Kashmir hostilities, the armed forces are stuck in that quick sand mentality that helps no one.

Terror: Maintaining the status quo means that Islamist/Kashmiri groups will continue to struggle for freedom. Some of it is positive, but much more of it is terrorism in India. Every time terrorists strike within the heart of India, Pakistan’s reputation takes a hit in the international fora. If hostilities increase and troops are amassed at the borders, we have to go into an alert state with the potential for much harm. We simply CANNOT afford to have these Islamists and terrorists cause trouble for us.

Economy: Despite all this talk about the malnourished in India, their HIV/AIDs rate etc., we simply can not ignore that India is trending towards economic prosperity. I believe that Pakistan has an even better opportunity to capitalize on our unique position at the crossroads of Asia. Instead of working on building economic relationships with regional countries, we are stuck in this Kashmir quagmire. Despite the much discussed China-India hostilities, trade, has not come to a stop. If Pakistani singers, cricketers can go into India and be well received, then surely we can work on building a trade relationship.

As I mentioned, Kashmir is the key issue plaguing the great nation of Pakistan. Of all the proposals that have been presented, giving Kashmiris azadi is the best option for Pakistan, India and most of all, Kashmiris.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

I also agree with u 100%. Frankly both us and india have about 1.5b people and for last 63 years we have wasted billions on $$ to win hearts of less than 10million kashmiri of vale of IOK. Who btw are ungrateful to both us and india. Enough already!!

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

When you support something that you know is RIGHT, and stand against those who you know are wrong, you don't do it for the sake of being rewarded. Regardless of whether the Kashmiris are grateful or not, we still owe it to them to support their struggle for freedom. Not as Pakistanis, OR as fellow Muslims, but as Human beings.

Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris. To believe otherwise is a betrayal of who we are, and the purpose for which our nation was created.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Exactly. Med, you are a credit to this community.

We should support the Kashmiri cause not for our territorial or political benefit, but rather to free an enslaved people. As a Pakistani of course I would like to Kashmir as the fifth province, but realize that this may not be possible at this time.

I would rather work with the Indians to come up with a solution that will be acceptable for both parties – An independent Kashmir is where the dialogue can be most fruitful. If we try for the territorial grab, then we will to face the mess that India is dealing currently facing.

I want India-Pakistan relations to be devolved from territorial and political disputes.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Yes, ultimately its depends on what the three parties decide together in an amicable solution.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

pak-one, I was with you till this sentence. Am I reading too much into this, or are you actually implying that down the road, you would like Pakistan to add Kashmir as a province?

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Haha what a joke. I suspect the concern for muslim Kashmiris is a lot more than the other non-muslim people suffering all over the world.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Definitely not implying that Kashmir will become part of Pakistan down the road. To bring peace, you have to make some strong sacrifices and it would be duplicitious to ask for the freedom of Kashmir only to take it over. In fact any agreement should include a clause that mentions Kashmir's strict neutrality both now and in the future.

Once the core issue of Kashmir is off the table, we have cut out the rationale of the Islamists/Terrorists in Pakistan, India is freed of its military commitments in Kashmir and most of all, South Asia can focus on economic and human development.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

Thanks pak-one!

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

I am not going to make this into a religious issue but politically yes we should all be concerned:

Kashmir Occupation leads to terror in India which then ends up massing its troops against Pakistan. Pakistan does the same, but being smaller, brings the nuclear option on the table. Therefore we end up at a nuclear flashpoint over a state that wants azadi from both countries.

There is no other conflict that has higher stakes than that.

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Re: Arundahti Roys "Seditious" speech on Kashmir!

I wouldn't call Pakistan's Kashmir policy to be foolish or suicidal(you didn't use the word), though it wouldn't be unreasonable to modify it to suit the post 9-11 world and I believe former President Musharraf was headed in that direction while he was in the office. There is no denying that our armed forces can be trained/equipped better; There is also no denying that unresolved Kashmir does create a lot of friction b/w the two South Asian giants and is a main reason for terrorism/militancy in India/IOK. There is also no denying, that if Kashmir dispute was resolved that Pakistanis wouldn't be needing to spend billions of dollars each year in defence and instead that money can be speny to uplift the suffering people. I'm well aware of the problems our country faces. My only contention is to not throw away Kashmir for pennies. I'm a strong believer that we need to get our house in order and make our economy vibrant(easier said than done, I understand). Till we make our economy vibrant/attractive; IMHO, it would be unwise to touch Kashmir dispute. We need to start with smaller issues like Sir creek, Siachen, water, Jinnah house in Mumbai etc. And I believe that prior to terrorists attacks in Mumbai, we were going in the right direction. But the problem arose, when the Indian government decided to not engage in diplomacy with Pakistan in the aftermath of the terrorists attack and I think that was not a wise decision on the part of the Indian government and was solely done to appease the Indian masses and look tough. Getting back to Kashmir(IOK), I still believe that we can make the Kashmiris opt for us(if there is ever a plebisite held) ONLY if our economy is vibrant. I dont see China giving up claims over Taiwan(maintaining the status quo), though they do business as usual.