Americans are hypocritical to the core. Now you are so concerned that Saddam and his Bathist thugs were killing innocent Iraqis. Why the f**k did the Americans overthrow the democratic government in Iraq ruled by the communist party and let Bathist take control. It was the CIA who assisted the killings of the communist party members and bring the Bathist to power. They made Saddam a two-tier thug into a dictator. They supplied him with weapons and boost his ego, and now that he went out of control you cry foul and point to his attrocities like you care a damn. More than ten thousand civilians are dead in Iraq and you make such hue and cry over burning of 4 dead americans. Where are photos of the remains of all those thousand Iraqis. How do you know what is good for Iraqis when you do not even know what is good for yourselves. Pathetic people, this generation of Americans.
Surya,
What amazes me is the inability of some Guppies to "apportion responsibility". It seems if we Americans dip a toe in the bathwater we own the whole tub. Consider the following:
1). Over the past 40 years the US has only had diplomatic relations with Iraq for 4 of those years.
2). 95% of the weapons in Iraq are Soviet made. The French provided many of the aircraft.
3). The Germans provided the majority of the technology for Saddam's nuclear and chemical systems.
4). Saddam was liberally financed by the Paris Club. To date they are owed over $128 Billion which financed the Saddam regime. The US, not a dime. Who is the Paris Club? The Soviets, The French, and a number of other European countries.
5). The biological weapons that the US provided were given to the University of Baghdad. Or can Muslims students not be trusted with germs? (Granted this was an act of remarkable stupidity by the US)
6) The French continued to rake in lucrative contracts to manage Saddam's oil fields right up to the end. The Russians took huge kickbacks to skim profits from the Oil-for-Palaces, which were deposited in foreign banks for the benefit of Saddam and his family.
Now, if I heard you apportioning some responsibility for Saddam to the above mentioned players, then I might give you credit for some intelligence beyond the usual Muslim Urban myths. But frankly, long after the US spun around on Saddam there were many other parties very much interested in maintaining him in power.
Perhaps it is comforting to have someone to blame.
In the mean time the US will give many Iraqi's the chance of their life times. Whether they choose to seize the opportunity is another question altogether. Yes people have died in this conflict. Innocents and soldiers. The question now in front of us is," has this blood been spilled in vain."
OG the Iraqi's are not dragging French or German corpses through the streets, so it's kinda pointless bringing that song and dance up..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
OG the Iraqi's are not dragging French or German corpses through the streets, so it's kinda pointless bringing that song and dance up..
[/QUOTE]
It's pointless except to point out that the institutionalized hatred of America vis a vis Iraq is largely the result of ill-informed, irrational mindsets.
Ohioguy, here is your toe in the bathwater, but the toe is as big as a f**king submarine.
(before discrediting the site, check the article references)
Soviet Union wasnt even a member of the Paris club until the latter half of the 90’s. It consists of US and its NATO allies.
So learn to accept fault where it is due.
Surya,
I have meticulously researched each one of the claims in the article you quote. Open another thread and I will debate them point by point with you. Just because you stumble upon a web site with a big list of claims of responsibility for the US does not mean that that list is factual, accurate or really implies that the US had significant influence in Iraq.
Take for example the only “weapon” on this list. 60 Defender helicopters. These helicpters are among the smallest made. They are principally scout helicopters, as they only seat 5. They were sold unarmed to the Iraqi’s. In comparison to the massive sales by the Russians to the Iraqi’s, this “weapon” was a drop in the proverbial bucket.
Muslims believe these “Urban Myths” because they do not bother to look into the specifics of each charge and to challenge the premise of the writer. The internet is full of politically charged garbage that conveniently fits with a preconceived notion.
As for the Paris Club, the US has participated in Paris Club activities, but not with regard to loans to Iraq. Each loan portfolio is voluntary by the lender, and lenders may participate or decline as they wish. The fact remains that those who were owed money by Saddam had a huge interest in keeping the murder of muslims in power. Yet not a peep comes from your mouth about the involvemnt of these far bigger players.
I will accept fault where it is due, and I will accept perhaps 5% of the blame. We are now doing 95% of the clean up.
(Actually the Iraqi debt is between 94 and 137 billion. The US is owed 2.1B for an agricultural loan through the Paris Club. So make my responsibility about 2%. http://www.jubileeiraq.org/debt_today.htm)
Ohioguy, what did your 'meticulous' research churn up. It is no use arguing with a person who cannot see the obvious facts and the facts are you have a history of interfering in Iraq and you turned a blind eye to Saddams deeds as long he did not harm US interests. So stuff this baloney about how you care about Iraqis and you went to Iraq to free the Iraqis. Even a die hard hypocrite would be shamed by such hypocrisy. All you want to do is bash up somebody because you were feeling impotent after 9/11, just the same animalistic behaviour you accuse the Iraqi mob of doing.
Fine, consider the following:
With the Advent of the Iran-Iraq War, oil money dropped off and Iraq’s expenses went up. Up until 1982, Iraq had essentially no debt. The following shows a breakdown of who funded Iraq, it’s regime, and it’s wars:
Please pay special attention to page four. This shows the countries that had pending contracts at the time of Operation Iraqi Freedom. You can see that Russia held promises of over $50Billion in new contracts, or 90% of the future business awards. Why did Russia want to keep a Muslim murderer like Saddam in power up until last year? Promises of repayment of old loans, and promises of $50Billion in new contracts.
Who financed Iraq? Mostly Russia and the Middle East States. Another table, somehat harder to read is found here:
http://www.jubileeiraq.org/debt_today.htm
Who armed Iraq?
The following table is extracted from research done by the Stockholm Institute of Peace. The table shows weapons shipment percentages from 1973 to 1990:
http://www.command-post.org/archives/002978.html
or if you prefer, the same information in numeric rather than graphical format.
http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/Trnd_Ind_IRQ_Imps_73-02.pdf
What does it show? It shows that from 1973-1990 the Soviet Union and their proxy state provided over $25 BILLION in arms sales to Iraq, or 57% The US provided less than $200million, or less than 1%
Now please answer me this. During the Saddam years the US provided less than 2% of the money, and 1% of the weapons. Given this, how can you possibly claim that Saddam was “our boy”, or that we had even a miniscule amount of influence over him?