Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army
After 30 years of development, only 35 were made


Arjun Finally Cancelled, Really Cancelled

October 7, 2006: India has decided to relegate its Indian designed and built tank, the Arjun, to training duties, and will not put these tanks into mass production. Thus ends a three decade effort to create an Indian designed and built tank. The 35 Arjuns already built are too large (heavy and wide) for existing tank transporters. The Arjun is also considered too unreliable for combat. But for training purposes, they are adequate, so it’s not a complete waste.

The government was reluctant to give up on the Arjun, as so many politicians had praised the project as a military and nationalistic success. But every time a prototype was put to the test, the results were disappointing. As has so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In the last round of tests, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry could not bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun failed. Until now.

Six years ago, the situation became critical, because the army needed a new generation of tanks and the Arjun wasn’t ready. So the army ordered 310 T-90 tanks from Russia, mainly to check them out. This was the beginning of the end for Arjun, that was supposed to be the successor to the Russian T-72, currently the first line Indian tank. The Defense Ministry still insisted that Arjun production would go forward. But the government engineers could not make Arjun work. There were also problems with using manufacturing technology, imported from Russia, to build components for Indian made T-72s, to build similar components for Arjun. About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable. But the technology transfer agreements with Russia only allowed India to manufacture these components for T-72s, not another tank design. The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford. The Arjun was going to cost more than imported T-90s.

Four years ago, desperate Ministry of Defense officials made plans to mount the turrets from the Arjuns on T-72 chassis, overcoming many of the construction problems. The Arjun chassis would then be used for a new Bhim self-propelled 155mm howitzers, with the South African Denel T-6 turret. The T-72 with the Arjun turret would be called Tank EX. The Denel turret proved to be too expensive, and too many components in the Arjun turret were still having problems, so this scheme was abandoned as well. At that point, the army began to refurbish some of its 1,700 T-72s, equipping 200 of them with additional armor (ERA), a new engine and upgraded electronics. The army began to look on the T-90 as its next generation tank, but it took four years for the Defense Ministry, and politicians, to admit that Arjun would not work.

Many of the problems with Arjun had to do with nothing more than government ineptitude.** The Ministry of Defense was more interested in putting out press releases, about how India was becoming self-sufficient in tanks, than in attending to the technical details needed to make this happen. The Ministry of Defense crowd has done this sort of thing many times**. Moreover, if it isn’t incompetence screwing things up, then it’s corruption. Cleaning up the Ministry of Defense, and all the politicians that get involved with it, is, so far, a problem without a solution.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

India has always had too much civilian interference in its military procurement process. It invests in and buys technology that is politically expedient, rather than militarily effective. The Arjun project is a prime example of something that was a pretty good idea and then wrecked by intereference by elected and appointed civilian officials.

By contrast, in Pakistan the military has virtually full control over the arms development and procurement. Civilian involvement is limited to mainly rubber stamping. The Al-Khalid and JF-17 are strong examples of the fruits of such an approach.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

How much of the Al Khalid Tank is indigenous and how much is foreign?

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

^^ Stay on topic man ^^

The question is, how much of Arjun is indigenous, and why it failed after 30 years of development (with foreign assistance)?

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

my guess is that they cant make a better tank
so they will look elsewhere

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

A valid question and very relevant to the superiority of the Pakistani approache to domestic tank manufacture.

As far as I’m aware, it has mainly foreign designed components. Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel and failing as India’s Arjun did, Pakistan took the more effective and efficient path of seeking out the best-value components from around the world. The result was much faster development and a successful tank.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

Arjun were a piece of crap and every indian knew it. The only benefit was that a lot of govt, military and middlemen made money milking it as much as they could.

The T-90's with technology transfer was and still is the better idea and they are better than the Al Khalid.
But how good are tanks these days? All that matters is a superior air force and tanks then become target practice.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

^^ indians are importing their tanks where as we are making these tanks and so our Al-Khalid II will be much more advanced than the Indian T-90 Russian Imports...

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

Anyone care to present a yardstick by which tank performance and superiority is assessed instead of claiming mine is better than yours.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

Our Tank is lighter, faster, has a 125 smooth bore gun and easy to maintain, upgrade, repair....

Look at the performance of the Israeli Tanks in Israel....

The T-90 is the same variants of the heavy armor type Tanks that Israel used in Lebanon....

The problem is that these tanks are devastating in open desert terrain but in hilly areas, they are slow and are vulnerable to anti-tank missiles....

Our Mighty Al-Khalid Tank is suberb in this regard

One it is lighter, which means it can move very fast in mountainous areas....

Two it has a very large turrent which means it can engage the T-90 at the same distance at which the T-90 can engage us....

So combining these two principles, we can run ciricles around the Indian Tanks

So this means Pakistan will be invinicble in a land war with India

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

You seriously believe the next India-Pak war will be fought with tanks??

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

nuclear weapons deter a war of total conquest

border skrimishes, annexing small areas is where tanks and other conventional weaponry will be used....

if india sends its army to take lahore or pakistan tries to take the whole of kashmir, then nuclear weapons will be used

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

Most believe that T-90 is better than Al Khalid.

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/2-12907.aspx

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

The Al Khalid project ran into numerous problems, especially with its Chinese power pack. The western powerplants were very costly for cash strapped Pakistan and technology denials. Pakistan was finally forced to settle for Ukraine 1200-hp diesel engine. As revealed in latest press release from Pakistani sources, the engines overheated and caught fire. But the other problems remain. Since Pakistani and Chinese sources have not revealed what problems did the failed tank T-90-II had. Al Khalid naturally inherited same problems. If the problems were overcome Chinese army might have been interested in this too.

In 2003 Another set back occurred. In addition to the tank structural, mechanical and performance problems, the corruption in the procurement section led to a case in Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2 A 2LL,
February 14 2003. There were fraudulent deals. Powerpack and Hull arrival from Ukraine suffered another set back.

The initial AL Khalid was a very basic tank. The crew confidence in the tank was low because of engine fires and other problems

In August 2004 it was reported by Pakistani sources that the tank is now equipped with Crew Bay Explosion Detection and Suppression System to lend confidence to the crew in the battlefield. Engine Compartment Fire Detection and Extinguishing System makes Al-Khalid free of any possible engine fire caused by fuel leaks or overheating of the engine.

The problem is the engines are still catching fires. Pakistan has to still a long way to go to find the solutions for the major problems faced by Al Khalid tank.

According to a 2001 report, Pakistan planned to add another 300 indigenous Al-Khalid tanks to its armoured corps by 2007. Since 1991 prototype till 2004, there are no more than 100 tanks produced.

Citing the religious closeness to some Islamic countries Pakistan has managed show some demonstrations. As per latest report Pakistan has used German engines in Al Khalid for demonstration purposes. The inference is that the much hyped Ukrainian engine are not Upton the mark.

Contrary to the claim the indigenous content in Al Khalid is dismally low. Al Khalid gun and acesscoriesis imported from china. Hull, Gear box and Powerpack is imported Ukraine. It also has some western equipment.

As per an Pakistani analyst, The Al-Khalid, at 46.5 tons, is probably a decent tank for the Punjabi battlefield. General Musharraf claims that its 125-millimetre gun and fire control system are among the best in the world, but that may be just a claim as there has never been any supporting documentation, they are just rumors.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

Guys ... leave Al-Khalid alone, talk about Arjun project, if you are out of steam on this topic and want to discuss Al-Khalid then feel free to goto Pak Affairs to discuss that.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

I’m sorry, but this is one of the worst posts that I have ever seen on Gupshup.

The T-90 shares the same Russian-pattern 125mm smoothbore cannon design with the Al-Khalid.
The T-90 and Al-Khalid are both dimensionally and performance-wise very similar, being based on Soviet doctrine of small, fast tanks with 3-man crews.
The T-90 is in no way equivalent to Israeli heavy armour. It relies on speed and a low profile for protection, just like all Soviet-pattern tanks including the Al-Khalid (which is based on an evolution of a Chinese copy of a Soviet-era tank).

They both use similar armour technologies and similar armour designs.

The sole advantage that the Al-Khalid has is that it has been engineered for optimal performance in desert conditions.

At the end of the day, the Al-Khalid AND the T-90 are both descended from the T-72. The Al-Khalid is the net result of Chinese and Pakistani re-engineering of the T-72; the T-90 is a result of russian engineering of the T-72.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

^^ Yes but the Al-Khalid is only 46 Tonnes where as the T-90 is much heavier

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

The T-90 is 500kg heavier than the Al-Khalid, that is all.

Like I said, the two tanks are near identical. If they were humans, they would be first cousins.

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

hmmmm, very interesting......

so india does not have a huge advantage over pakistan when it comes to tanks?

Re: Arjun Project Terminated By Indian Army

India still has a significant advantage. Not just in numbers - bear in mind that the Al-Khalid is currently still a minority of Pakistan's tanks. Most pakistani tanks are still Type-85s, Type-69s. and Type-59s.