The bottom line is “in religion we follow the guidelines set by allah as told by rasul :saw: and narrated to us by the pious predecessors, we dont use crappy logic to prove our point.”
I thought there were only four fiqhs for sunnis, I never heard aga khani's called a fikh...
I think you can choose what fiqh you want but you are not stuck to only one fiqh all the time. i have also met/hear scholors at varoius discussions in california say when asked a question " i am maliki but on this subject i really go more towards imam hanbali says on the subject for these reasons "...This was at the Zaytuna conference btw so before anyone flips out this whasn't some two bit imam...
I think all the imam's who created the 4 schools had very well researched and valid arguements for what they suggest and you should also know and understand each as much as possible. i have this great book called the jurist primer (it's centuries old by ibn rushd but got it off amazon), the primer looks at varous issues like prayer, gusl, marriage and what each of the 4 fikhs suggest and what reasoning. IT is VERY interstig.
Finally, i know at the mosque mca in santa clara california they had a class exploring the 4 fiqhs and comparing contrating them along with shia concepts, looking at the reasoning and why certain decisions were made..from the people in the class i spoke to they really really enjoyed the class. It helped clarify why you do what you do but also made you realize that there really isn't a wrong..i.e. both are right, just based on difft hadiths.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
The short answer is 'yes'.
In my view, selecting a specific fiqha and sticking to it is not the most appropriate way, although it is fine for those who are unwilling to invest their time and learn. For all issues of importance, the best way is to carry out a research on different rulings and evaluate the evidence used by the scholar to reach the conclusion and then follow the ruling where you feel the evidence is the strongest.
[/QUOTE]
What I Believe; Fiqh is an Islamic System Interpretation by different scholars. They prepared it according to their understanding about Islamic System.
System can only run successfully when all of its components run all together collectively. If one or some of its components or if one or some of components taken from other system the system will run by it will look awkward. Like fitting an other vehicles parts in some other model.
Correct me if am wrong.
AoA,
Dear inuit,
A fiqah is not something as firmly set as you think it is. In the beginning it was Islam. People used to ask the Prophet questions regarding the right way to do things. The Prophet (peace be upon him) answered them but did not keep a systematic record. Next the people used to ask Ashab their questions who answered them but again did not keep a record. And so on.
Time went by and some Islamic governments were set up in different regions. People with different opinions in a particular matter sometimes fought amongst themselves. They sometimes do that now as well :) Their disputes were referred to Qazis, the government judges. Most of these Qazis did not keep their records as well. Sometimes qazis were forced to take a second opinion of a religious scholar of their time. Again, these opinions were not always preserved on paper.
However, we do know that somebody someday started writing them down. These were collected by the faithful disciples of whom the opinion was sought and published and came to be known as fiqah.
Not one true muslim to date has started a group or sect intently. That is to say creating Hanafis was not the specific intent of Abu Hanifa, nor creating Hunbalies the intent of Ahmad bin Hunbal and so on.
So, the teachings of a fiqah (and the four great Sunni fiqahs) are the opinions written down of religious scholars. These are as good as their judgement could be. So, unless they were "mistake-proof" their opinions need constant refinement as times and situations keep changing.
However, if anybody claims the creator of his fiqh was really mistake-proof, then I or anybody can't argue with that. Such an unquestioning belief can be found fault with. So if you are one of them, hats off to you and Wassalam.
For the rest of us, we constantly need to refine our concepts.
Regards,
worried.
Dear Amelei,
Salaams,
Since I am in the process of finding and doing research for a fiqah which can convience me, to the best of my intelligence.
As I totally disagree from my forefathers fiqha which is Hanafi and some are shias in our close relations. My brother married an Agha khani ,so I knew about them and I feel a lot of comfort in their fiqhah.
But one can not change the fiqha so easily, I must make sure what I am thinking is correct and useful for Hayat Baad ul mout.
S o I am in the process to read books from all fiqhas. I have found, that all muslims 100% without any exception follow him(ALI). If the first person after Prophet or the fourth Khalifa.
But no one dears to speak against him at least directly.
Secondly his superiority can be proved by the fact that he was born in Kaaba. And is brought up by our Prphet from the first day of his life. Please note, who was his teacher. What a wonderful student, he(prphet) would have prepared him in Dine.
Thirdly HUREES, Darouzis,and Alvis- most of them are in turkey believe in him only, after prophet and many of them believe him like GOD naouzoubillah.
But I conclude his superiority over all other companions from above mentioned, such a believe of certain popullation of man kind in this technically advanced enviornment.
Hurries in syria throw their child up certain hill and they say if you are for Ali stay alive otherwise they do not want that child.This is another kind of love for Ali , These people take Ali as first emam like shias, but they do not do mattam of hussain and their family.
So to net shell, although as you all know killing shias(those who sided Ali) is/was told by certain muslim firqa and taught to be sawab since last 1400 years, still they are in majority. Also lots of propagenda against Ali could not decrease his followers.
For example there was and is a propagenda that Shia say that wahe was supposed to be on Ali but jibrael did the mistake to bring it on Prophet mohammed(P).
I have asked a shia about this propagenda,he said Ali was a child(TIFL) and Rasoul was RAJOUL (man), when wahi revealed. And the wahi words say straight away that it came on a RAJOUL(man). No one in the world would get confused between an aayat for a man and a child.
So no shia ever was so illeterate that they would have not known about the truth of the aayat. It is propagenda machinary to decrease the followers of Ali. But all in vain. Every muslim irrespective of any firqa(73 of them) believe in him.
The sheik also said to me" suppose you are an English teacher in my school, if you die I would replace you with an English teacher or some urdu or some arrow fighter etc etc" I said you must replace me with an English teacher. I further added If you do not get an English teacher,then what would you do?"
He said, "suppose in my school I already have another English teacher and she was just to help you in your work before your death, then what would an honest governing body of school would do"
I said if we do not get another English teacher we should appoint my helper english teacher for that"
He said, "but if that English teacher is there in the same school and all the governing body is not selecting your helper English teacher then either all of them dislike that teacher, or they feel threatened with that teacher, so they would appoint say an history teacher to fill your post(seat)"
I said it seems what you said is correct.
He said" Ali's position was of that new English teacher. Every one knew that he was the best in religion after Rasoul(P) but they restrained in selecting him." after prophet(P)
He said after Rasoul(P), who was a chair person kind in religion, after his death if people did not select Ali.It was a political mistake.
Ali who is ( his (prophet's), only student to whom he taught from first day of Ali's life. He also said ANNA Madena tul Alimoha and Ali ou Bab ou ha)
So majority of muslims sets believe in Ali after prophet.
Do not believe in statistic given by webs or such books.
They are about 60-65% in kuwait
They are 80% in Iraq
They are 70% in Bahrain
They are 45-48% in Pakistan
They are every where====
All those who take Ali as superior than companions of Rasoul are all under one constitution of law of Islam, they are called JAfferies or Emamies
So I started thinking to change my fiqah , as I do want to find the correct path out of 73 firqas in islam.
So first thing I have already decided to believe in Ali after prophet. And I behave like Bohries muslims for last two years, but I still want to seek the truth, let us see, are there some muslims who can guide me to the correct path.? Bye sokoon
P.S: most of the muslims fiqah are ignorant because they do not exchange their thoughts, their ahadeez with other fiqah. So they know about their books and they believe in them whether those books are right or wrong they do not dear to question. if some one asks any thing or critisize any part of their thoughts,they prove it from the same books they believe in ,no matter other person does not believe in those books, at all. So they are good for their own fiqah only.
sokon for your information, we think that all the sahabis of rasul :saw: were great, but since the rasul :saw: loved aysha 
the most and then her father abu bakar we also love them more than any one else in the entire ummah.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Secondly his superiority can be proved by the fact that he was born in Kaaba.
[/quote]
No he wasn't... although if this is a mark of superiority then the companion Hakim ibn Hizam is his equal in this respect as he was born in the Kabah. (Sahih Muslim, 3662)
[quote]
So majority of muslims sets believe in Ali after prophet.
[/quote]
No they don't...
... keep searching.
Dear gupguppy & Thandymazaq,
Hi!!!
See ,this the problem ,which I disliked in my forefathers , parents and close family members, too.
Exactly like you two, they put forward which they believe in, what is written in their books.
I am not a jahil to believe in some ones pre-conceived conception, without following.
I have ability to read ,follow , I can argue and can comment, I can find mistakes , I can compare old sahe Bukhari with the new versions etc etc
I know that all sunnis of four fiqha believe in Ali as 4th khalifa. I have already written it. Same does my father and mother, Dada ,and Dady, what you two did.
All others fiqhas or believers do not believe in Ali as fourth khaslifa at all. They believe in him as much superior than others. There is no believer of mohammed and allah who does not believe in ALI, what ever way; either as first or fourth person after Rasoul(P). Do you know it?
Lahmae fikreya hei, to accept his superiority----that quite a lot take him as almost GOD also.
Where as all those who believe in him as first khalifa or first imam or like every thing after rasoul does not believe in any of our first three khulafas, at all. They laugh out when we say they were very close to prophet and were prophet's closed companions.
They say; whose quality was this for keeping all ashab close to him(P)?
It was order of GOD to prophet that he should be mujasema aqhlaq. He must treat all of the people jews,christian, non believers in the same good way. So what was ordered he did it. He had salman e farsi the closest of all friends and he was a christian or jew, all his life, while was the best friend of rasoul. At the end of his life he had accepted Islam.
Also there is a mutafiq elle hadeez.
That one day prophet(P) was sitting with his ashabs and started smiling.
Hasrat abu bakar,hazrat, umar and other ashabs.asked him, "ya rasoul ullah why are you smiling?" let us also know,he said" I am thinking of my those believers who would believe in me when I would not be among them. They would be my true brothers, and the best. "
Ashabs ask but ya Rasoul allah we also believe in you, we also love you. He answered yes you do, you do but it, is not so great as you are believing in me after you are judging me and looking at me all the time.
But those would be better than you, because they would believe in me unseen, in future.
So from that hadeez all the muslims who have believed in him as Prophet (P) after his WESAL are better than ashabs of that time.
It was not credit to those ashabs to be with him. It was Prophets (P) ikhlaq to treat all the mankind the same way. And spreading islam through his character of ikhlaq, as it was asked by GOD in the package of his prophethood.
Therefore there are mankind who do not believe in khulafas,the way sunni muslims believe in them.
So therefore believer of ALi are 100% muslims what ever way they believe in him as fourth or first but no muslims dear to deny his position as such.
So all 100% can not be wrong, including you sunnis all. So i decided to believe in a personality in whom every muslims has believed in. And I really now believe in him after Rasoul(P).
Since sunnis have very firm believe in love of Aeysha(R) and Abu bakar(R) , by Rasoul ,no one denies it. But this was ahkam allah to him to love all, treat all the same. Prophet was not given freedom to hate or dislike or disrespect or wrongly treating anyone of the mankind of those days.
Look towards me, currently no one from that bunch of ashabs or Ali or fatima or her kids is present or alive.
I have detached my believe from that web of my parents believe ,in which they say every one was good,we believe in everyone.
They keep on proving from their old books, and those books quotations,who knows in 1400 years all those who were against Ali might have or jews or christians have destroyed the real books and might have printed new ones , which was serving their believe or their politics to divide muslims and rule.
What is the guarentee of the validity of those books.
So it happened that :
I read a few books of DR. Ahmed tejani from Tunis. He has argued on every hadeez and on every contravercial believe between sunnis and shias and in court of islamic shareya he has won the case and along with him all almost 500 sunnis, including judge of the court, have changed, to believe in Ali after prophet.
They , all new believers of Ali say, we must say salawat on only ashabe salaheen not on ashabe ajmaeen.
They say saying salawat on ashabeajmaeen is a sin, refusal of sorah e munafaqeen.
As sourah e munafeqeen had revealed on prophet while all ashab were with him. And this sorah was to give information that some of these ashabs are not yet have eman fe qouloube he, on him as prophet.
So they say that this sorah e munafeqeen proves and approves that not all ashabs were saleheens, some were munafeqeens.
So if we send salawat on ashabe ajmaeen , we are MUNKIR of sorah e munafeqeen. And MUNIK of one sorah is MUNKIR of whole Quran and MUNKIR of quran is kaffir. So this was the first thing I had learnt to say salawat on Ashabe saleheen.
I told my parents, but they did not agree, they said we are doing this way, our parents are doing this way, our ullamas are saying this way, our all books of ahadeez are witness to it. We can not believe in Dr Tejani or you. We would continue saying salawat on ashabe ajmaeen. What ever happen.
BUT GOD gives HEdayat to whom so ever he wishes. Of course the one who wants to know the reality and tries himself or herself, instead of depending on others sold intelligence through books, only and the new writters.
Pleae do not feel angry, do not feel ofended, I do not mean to say anything to you all, read the above carefully. Think you are dealing with some educated person who would believe in with her KASOUTI. Thanks and regards Sokoon
Bye sokoon
P.S:
If you feel bad of what I write let me know I would close the thread. Since I do not want to hurt some one out of my curiosity.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
I can compare old sahe Bukhari with the new versions etc etc
[/QUOTE]
Interesting... please post a couple of comparisons (are you talking about translations or the Arabic text itself?).
I thought the rest of your post was pretty repetitious.
great, now ALL of the sunnis are declared kafir by mufti sokoon…think before you post as this could have serious consequences.
and you say that what proof is that sahih bhukhair was not written/changed by jews and christians? well what proof do you have that shia books were not written by jews and christians? or that Ali even existed? quran only mentions muhammad :saw: and zaid among the people at that time, so could it be that ali is just a imagination of some people that we have started to belive? so think before you cast doubt on the authenticity of sahih bhukhari. it has withstood the barrage of doubts since it was written over 1000 years ago and by allah’s help survives to this date un changed.
and jesus :saw: is belived to be god by more than 2 billion people, a lot more than people who believe in ali so why dont you become christian now? if the numbers is what you want to follow? even if we accept your fantacy that shais are somehow majority of the muslim population, which the entire world mistakenly claims to represent only 10% of total muslims, it proves nothing as numbers are not proof of guidance. there are more non muslims than muslims, so is islam wrong naudubillah???
Thandy Mazaq and gupguppy,
Hi!! Oh my God,you did not read it carefully. I have written what Dr. Ahmed jejanni and others say.
I am still in the swamp of exploring the truth. Instead of helping me , you started accusing me.
Who i am in this big , huge world to pass fatwas against anyone?
I myself is looking and trying to seek the truth.
You all are the same like my family members.
You do not understand or perhaps you do not want to understand what I say or intend to say.
Please read my answers slowly. What I have written is a general believe of other casts of muslims too.
It is not new. What if you did not come across this. You behave this way so you do not know how and what others believe in. Come on you misunderstood. Read again please.
The old sahe Bukhari had a lot of ahadeez and the new one, has many ahadeez taken out stating they are weak ones. I have seen it in Britian. Every one knows it that the book has become very thin now.
P.S: Are there sunnis who hate Ali ? Do you ? you felt offended , why? if I have written about him. I did not write anything against any firqa at all.
I wanted you to comment. I need your help, you did not have any confusion I have. So what is wrong if we discuss. I have already written if you mind let me know we would lock the thread. I repeat it again. Please discuss, but if you think, I am offending you please let me know. Or be open minded and discuss. Thanks
Bye sokoon
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
you did not read it carefully
[/QUOTE]
No... the problem is you didn't write carefully...
... still looking forward to you posting those comparisons from Sahih Bukhari... (or were you just joking?)...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
The old sahe Bukhari had a lot of ahadeez and the new one, has many ahadeez taken out stating they are weak ones. I have seen it in Britian. Every one knows it that the book has become very thin now.
[/QUOTE]
"Everyone" knows it!? Care to post a link showing this mysteriously "thin" version?
Dear gupguppy,
New print of sahe Bukari has a lot less ahadeez. They have taken out many, saying that they were weak. So the book is thin now.
You can confirm it from British Islamic center too. I do not have that book at hand to write, and quote for you, stating which of the ahadeez have been taken out from it as weak ones.I have written about it in the above thread, also as reply to you. Bye sokoon
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
New print of sahe Bukari has a lot less ahadeez. They have taken out many, saying that they were weak. So the book is thin now.
[/quote]
Still you repeat this nonsense knowing that you can't provide any proof...
[quote]
You can confirm it from British Islamic center too. I do not have that book at hand to write, and quote for you, stating which of the ahadeez have been taken out from it as weak ones.I have written about it in the above thread, also as reply to you. Bye sokoon
[/QUOTE]
What is the "British Islamic center"... telephone/web link??... why am i getting the feeling that its going to turn out to be a Shia center....
no i dont hate ali for by allah it is narrated in sahih hadiths that none but a hypocrite hates ali and i ask allah’s refuge with that. but hating the ansar (which included so many sahabis) is also sign of hypocracy and i seek refuge with allah from that also.
but what i do hate is that fact that people have taken their love of ali to the love they should show for allah and his rasul :saw:. that is what i hate and you should agree. i also hate people who love rasul :saw: as they should love allah. sunnis have barelvis who do such that and are despised by mainstream sunnis for that reason.
if you want to avoid misconeptions, you need to write carefully about what you want to write because sometimes your posts are not clear and people can get wrong meanings. so i apoligize if i thought you were passing fatwa on sunnis as being kafirs.
but there is no such thing as “revised” bhukhari, or atleast not that i know of. you must be reading the “abriged” version which has reduced the size of bhukhari not because some hadiths were weak or fabricated but because in bhukhari any hadith that has any relevence to the given topic is listed in that chapter, so many ahadiths were listed more than once and in the abriged version, they listed that hadith only once. but never have i ever heard that one of the hadith from bhukhari was taken out because it was false. may be learned members can help us in this regard. imam bhukhari was not a infalliable so he could have made mistakes, but he was so careful that ordinary people can not even think of doubting his work, and in the present form, bhukhari is not known to contain ANY false hadith.
Dear sokoon - Somewhere in one of your threads you had stated that you are not a Shia ( no problems with that), but all your posts and info is all Shia. And you are so negative about others while knowing nothing about them.
:k:
Only the Book of Allah is perfect in all respects… but Sahih Bukhari stands head and shoulders above all other hadith works even though a tiny number of hadith have been criticised for not meeting Bukhari’s own exacting standards such as one hadith which gives the name of a horse and another about wudhu in which the words of Abu Huraira are mistakenly interpolated into the text of the hadith (not by Abu Huraira, but by the compiler)… relatively minor but the important point is that the errors - few that they are - are known…
Dear Zainest and all of you,
Hi!!!
What is the problem with all of you?
You would not let me either this or that.
My Parents' were non co-operation to explain any thing, brought me to a place that i thought to change the firqa or fiqha. I was fed up with their same anwers, from old , stone aged stories. i am sorry to say ahadeez as stories, but believe me, I have heard from my parents, so many ahadeez that we would not be able to print them all together.
Specially when they used to start with naouzoubillah Hazrat Ayesha said this , said that. Almost all of the ahadeez my grand pas used to mentioned, were from Hazrat Ayesha. And I used to argue; do not tell me only through her. She was a lady. Who so ever, she is a wife ,but do not change her gender. At the end she was a single lady and a cute young small girl, not even mother.
At the end they all left me, and said, do what ever you like , believe what ever you think is appropriate, but remember if you become christian or---we would -----zinda---?
For last two years I selected ALI to follow .,(like one of my Bohri friend), after Rasoul, but it is not sufficient. I am not sure of what I am believing might take me to a dingen.
Now I thought I would be better of in knowledge with you learned people, but all with the exception of few are like my family members.
They immediately wants to bring ahadeez as baricade of discussion; neither they themselves discuss ,nor they let me discuss, with others, peacefully.
So till date I am just a muslim. I do not know whether I would be able to select a fiqh or not.?
Dear gupguppies, i would try to get you the reference of that book , I promise, but, I do not know, it might be from shia people as you said. Just please wait for few days(5-6only)
Bye sokoon