BB started a thread addressing this issue for which I was looking forward for an engaging debate or dialogue. But Admin closed the thread without any due reason or justification. I feel that Admin has been suppressing the FREE thoughts based on reason and rational. I hope this thread will not be subject of authoritarian rule.
Dear Crunchy,
Admin did not close that thread, I did. I let the thread grow a little to see if the debates turns into different than what Ghazi & Co. had been posting.
Even though I had told them that I will close their threads until they calm down and start bevaving with decency, I let that particular thread grow to give a chance).
Unfortunately, that didn't happen so I closed the thread.
[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:
**Dear Crunchy,
Admin did not close that thread, I did. I let the thread grow a little to see if the debates turns into different than what Ghazi & Co. had been posting.
Even though I had told them that I will close their threads until they calm down and start bevaving with decency, I let that particular thread grow to give a chance).
Unfortunately, that didn't happen so I closed the thread.**
[/quote]
I am not sure that why are you telling me that? But I didn't see anything wrong on that thread. The only thing is wrong about that thread is closed with no reason with many other threads. That is what I believe. There is not a single questionable post on many threads that you closed.
What you told some one, has nothing to do with what you prevented others from doing?
[This message has been edited by Crunchy (edited April 09, 2000).]
Crunchy,
You quoted from the Quran in my thread:WHY I AM NOT A MUSLIM, that "there is no compulsion in religion."
The phrase is relevant ONLY "for people of the Ummah" it does not apply for non-believers or kafirs. And, today's Ummah means only Sunni Islam.
In Islam there is only one faith and that is Sunni Islam; all others have been abrogated, how many times has BB, Ghazi talked about this. Even right now, on behest of your Lord - BB you are questioning the validity of the Shia faith! This is what is known as the "Two Faces of Islam!"
Can you answer - why it took God 23 years to deliver the massage or Quran to the prophet?
Refer to my thread:RE: FACEUP-THE GLORIOUS QURAN! Oh yeah! you are gonna tell me BB has already answered that and beaten me! Can you show me where he has answered this or any questions.
dear muslims........quraan says....i(God) made sects of the religion and u shall not fight among u,r selves........find the answers in the complete book
so shia,s r muslims and all who believe in oneness of God and lastness of Prophet
nimboo:
Dear friend I am troubled with the fact that (a) you don’t possess good judgement and god knowledge. Little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.
You are in habit to make statements without supporting facts. Can you give me the Surah (Chpater) and Aaya (verse) number to I can check your claim for accuracy.
You are to claiming that “Shia are Muslims and all who believe in oneness of God and lastness of Prophet.”
Can you tell us how Shias are Muslim and who are these “all” are?
In Holy Quran there are some verses about diversity of humans and life. They are verses 30:22, 35:27-28. For your ready reference I have quoted them below. Please check them with your Quran.
Holy Quran 30:22:
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.
nimboo:
Dear friend I am troubled with the fact that (a) you don’t possess good judgement and good knowledge.(b) Little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.
You are in habit of making statements without supporting facts. Can you give me the Surah (Chapter) and Aaya (verse) number to I can check your claim for accuracy.
You are to claiming that “Shia are Muslims and all who believe in oneness of God and lastness of Prophet.”
Can you tell us how Shias are Muslim and who are these “all” are?
In Holy Quran there are some verses about diversity of humans and life. They are verses 30:22, 35:27-28. For your ready reference I have quoted them below. Please check them with your Quran.
Holy Quran 30:22:
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Verily, in that are indeed signs for men of sound knowledge.
Holy Quran 35:27-28:
27…See you not that Allâh sends down water (rain) from the sky, and We produce therewith fruits of varying colours, and among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black.
28…And of men and AdDawâb (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and cattle, in like manner of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is AllMighty, OftForgiving.
Now the trouble is a “sect” is a group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. So Shias falls in this definition. If you carefully read the facts posted on thread “Are Shias Muslims, who want to debate?” You will notice somehting which is yet to be challenged or proven wrong.
Now I gave you the facts establishing my point of view. Can you give me the verse(s) to support your statement above.
[This message has been edited by Chand Mian (edited April 09, 2000).]
nimboo:
I hope this will open you eys and you will be careful in future acting like an Ayyutollah.
What the Shi'ites say about Sunni Muslims
I am going to show you is the truth about what the Shi'ites think of us Sunni Muslims, the Shi'ites may tell you that we are the same and that they love us but beware because the Shi'ites also believe that it is okay and that they will get lots of reward for lying to Sunni Muslims about what they beleive in....Below is the truth that the Shi'ites tried to hide from us for so long, it exposes the pure hatred that they hold against the Sunni Muslims. (the Shi'ites practise Taqayyah which means to conceal or lie about their beleifs,
Mohammed bin Al-hassan Toosi reports on the authority of Ishhaq bin Ammar, that Abu Abdullah said "The wealth, the property and everything which belongs to a Sunni is actually yours (is legal for you)" (Tahzib-ul Ahkam, Vol. 2 Kitabul Makasib, p. 116, published in Iran) above in this Shi'ites book it states that all Shi'ites can steal from any Sunni Muslim and that there is nothing wrong with that.
Moallah Khonas reported that Abdullah said "snatch the possessions of a Sunni whereever you find it and hand over my share (ie. One fifth) to me" *(Tahzib ul Ahkam). These Shi'ites think that they can steal our possessions and who knows what else they would like to do to us Sunni Muslims!
The Shi'ites say this regarding Sunni Muslims *"Although Allah, the Exalted, has not created a creature worse than a dog, yet a Nasbi (ie. A Sunni) is worse than even a dog." (Haqqul Yakeen (Persian) Vol 2, P. 516) Here the Shi'ites have said that Sunni Muslims are worse than Dogs!
The Shi'ites say that we will never go to Paradise! "It is contained in several sources of information that they, (the assumed Imams of Shias) said: 'Should every angel that Allah, the Exalted and Gracious, has created, every prophet that Allah has appointed, every truthfull martyr, (collectively) pray to Allah, the Exalted and Gracious, to release a Nasbi (a Sunni) from the Hell, Allah would never release him." (Haqqul-Yaqeen, (Arabic), Vol. 2 P. 192) This is what the Shi'ites realy think about us!!! They say that if anyone who is a Sunni Mulim will go to Hell!!! Don't these Shi'ites know what they are sayying?????
This is what the Shi'ites say what will happen when their so-called Imams will return "When Qaem alaihissalam appears, he will start slaughtering Sunnis and their Ulema before slaughtering the infidels (kaffar)." (By the term "Quem" the Shi'ites mean Imam Mahdi, their twelfth Imam) So here the Shi'ites state that we are not Muslims, and that we are worse than the infidels (kaffar)
So, how can the Shi'ites expect us to be freinds with them when they Insult us and call us Kaffar behind our backs. So when a Shi'ite Insults a Sunni he is also Insulting all the Schollars and all of those pious people in Islam, can't these Shi'ites see what is wrong with their own beleifs???
May Allah Guide the Shi'ites to True Islam, and May Allah show us what the Shi'ites really are, Ameen!
[This message has been edited by Chand Mian (edited April 09, 2000).]
Assalam-u-Aliakum
Crunchy, I beg to differ. I am a practicing
Sunni Muslim. We recently started first Mussallah here in North Vancouver, which is perdominantly inahabited by Shite Muslims, immigrants from Iran. Most of them don't practice Islam , however their are few dedicated Shia muslims who worked alongside with us in the construction of this site .I truly applause their effort. Now, we have a place of worship for all the muslims of North
Vancouver where Jumma and other prayers are held Ba Jamaat.
[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited April 09, 2000).]
[quote]
Originally posted by outlaw:
**Assalam-u-Aliakum
Crunchy, I beg to differ. I am a practicing
Sunni Muslim. We recently started first Mussallah here in North Vancouver, which is perdominantly inahabited by Shite Muslims, immigrants from Iran. Most of them don't practice Islam , however their are few dedicated Shia muslims who worked alongside with us in the construction of this site .I truly applause their effort. Now, we have a place of worship for all the muslims of North
Vancouver where Jumma and other prayers are held Ba Jamaat.
[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited April 09, 2000).]**
[/quote]
outlaw:
I am clueless, what you are referring to?
outlaw, congratulations... now if we only had a few more examples like that!
dear mr. chand sahib.........about me.......i am not a shia........only merely a practicing muslim..........i appreciate u,r concern and commend u,r knowledge but dear sir........u tend to daviate from the essence of islam..........tolerence.......humbleness.......khannas........as God says.......bad is for them who walk with arrogance on earth........now u will ask again from which part it is from....
open the Book and u will c..........i will reply to u as soon as i am free from my exams.........
Is it really a proper time for the Muslim Ummah to decide which sect is Muslim and which sect is not? I think all the sects should stop fighting and unite. This is the ultimate need for today. Haven't you heard? Itefaaq mein barkat hai.
Iran being a Shia country is the most powerful (independant) Islamic country.
Who says nothing is impossible? I've been doing nothing all my life!
Just go through their religious beleives (aqeeda) and you will find the answer. It is so simple.
nimboo refutes Chand Mia and says:
"u tend to daviate from the essence of islam..........tolerence.......humbleness.......khannas........as God says.......bad is for them who walk with arrogance on earth........now u will ask again from which part it is from....
open the Book and u will c..........i will reply to u as soon as i am free from my exams........."
Nimboo bhai - I am looking forward to your response.
These are the basic of SHIA MUSLIM. Read them and judge yourself so you can get better answer.
Fundamentals of Islam according to SHIA MUSLIM.
Usool -ad-Deen (Roots of Religion)
Tawheed - (Oneness of God) - The most fundamental aspect of all beliefs revolves around the total acceptance of the Absolute and Perfect Creator. Belief in the Originator of all causes and effects with no effect on Him and that He is One, Everliving, Beneficent and Merciful. He has neither a colleague nor a partner. He begets not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like Him. The Almighty God is Unique and is Absolute in the Absolute sense. No entity in His
Universe can ever comprehend His true state and none should even bother to try for it will lead to futility and insanity. Yet there is no doubt in any sane mind that His existence precedes all and His presence is Absolutely ubiquitous (everpresent). For anyone to say that God does not exist is a liar and a fool because such a person can NEVER disprove His existence, whether
scientifically or philosophically, or for that matter in any method known. Because
He is Absolute and none is like Him, no one in the relative world can ever pysically define Him, and thus all idol worshippers and those who ascribe a shape or a body to Him are wrong. Ascribing a shape to the One who is beyond our limited perceptions would be tantamount to lying and giving a false
appearance and a false representation. In addition, to believe that one can see
God in the physical sense of sitting on a throne like some mythical being is
certainly an untrue statement and should never be accepted. The Almighty Creator brings to existence everything with utmost Perfection and nothing in His Universe is imperfect. Thus to state that the Creator has created imperfect things is certainly a false statement. He is the One and Only and is Absolutely independent of anything and everything that exists. Glorified be His names, the Most High!
'Adl - (Justice) - Essentially part of Tawheed. Belief that God is Just. He will
reward or punish any person according to his deeds and thus the notion of predestination (where all decisions are God's and not any one else's) in one's deeds does not exist. It is absolutely forbidden in Islam to believe that the Almighty, Merciful Allah planned our destiny and that the good and the bad are
just His Will and there is no choice for us between them (God forbid!). Those who ascribe to such lies do so because they want to blame their own evils on Allah and claim the good for themselves! Although the attribute of Allah's Justice is not a separate entity of Allah for certainly the Almighty God can never be compartmentalized nor defined in any relative terms, it is nonetheless absolutely compulsory to believe and fully understand the importance of this attribute in Islam so as not to allow the evil suggestions of Iblees (curse of Allah be upon him and his progeny) and his companions from leading us astray.
Nubuwwat - (Prophethood) - Belief in the Prophets (PBUT) of God who excel all other persons for whom they are sent for. All prophets of Allah are perfect and sinless (ma'soom). Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (PBUH&HF) is the last of the prophets sent by God and the sealer of prophets for NO more are to
come, EVER! The total number of prophets (PBUT) that were sent by God to mankind is 124,000 and every nation on earth was given guidance through them.
In fact, all major religions today on earth can be traced to have these divinely
guided teachers as their original propagators of the Truth of Allah. The best of His messengers all came from the same tree i.e. family lineage and many of them are mentioned in the Holy Qur'an which describes who they were and what their mission on earth was. It is important to note that no prophet on earth ever negated or rejected any of the other divinely ordained prophets and thus their message was always the same and one in purpose. Each established the law of
the One and Only God and showed the way of life for humans to observe. From the very first creation of mankind, there was always a prophet on earth which was Prophet Adam (PBUH). This guidance from the Merciful Allah to establish His complete laws continued to the last Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) who
exemplified the letters of the law in his most perfect behavior. He completed and perfected the one and only True religion, Islam. With the revelation of the last Holy Book, the Qur'an, which is the most protected and perfect book of God with us, he established as part of his mission, every concievable and practical law for mankind to follow in order to attain spiritual perfection. Great prophets such as Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob), Yusuf (Joseph), Dawood (David), Sulaiman (Solomon), Musa (Moses),yahya (John), and Isa (Jesus), - (Peace be upon them all) - all came from the one blessed lineage of Prophet Adam (PBUH) and ended with the last Messenger,
Muhammad (PBUH&HF). It is also important to note that anyone who ascribes imperfections or mistakes to these divinely guided personalities is ascribing itdirectly to Allah who is certainly free from such. Acceptance of such ideas is also rejection of the message of Allah entirely. Thus with prophethood, a believer has to accept in their complete message without any reservations of possible errors or mistakes.
Imamat - (Guidance) - Belief in the divinely appointed leadership after the
death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) to protect and guide mankind with the revealed Truth, the Holy Qur'an and the true practices of the Holy Prophet himself. The roles of these leaders is an integral part in the protection of all the Messengers and their divine Messages. The Almighty Allah appointed through the Holy Prophet himself, twelve Guides (Imams) to protect mankind from
misrepresenting and misinterpreting the Truth. Belief in this is most important
in Islam and no doubts about their positions should be allowed. They are indeed
sinless (ma'soom) and perfect in the highest sense of the word. The Imams have direct knowledge from God, and their verdict is the verdict of God. After the Holy Prophet, only they can interpret and guide mankind in every aspect of life and death and all believers must acquire guidance from them or else they will certainly be lost. They do NOT bring any new laws nor do they ever innovate their own laws. They always exempliy and elucidate the practical (Sunnah) and the written (the Holy Qur'an). It is also important to note that they NEVER disagree with each other in their manners and duties nor in their representations of the Divine Laws. They are from the best and the most blessed and purified lineage of the last Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUT) and their names are as
follows: (1) Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Holy Prophet who called him his only brother in this world and in the next, (2) Imam Hasan son of Ali, (3) Imam Husain son of Ali, (4) Imam Ali son of Husain, (5) Imam Muhammad son of Ali, (6) Imam Ja'far son of Muhammad, (7) Imam Musa
son of Ja'far, (8) Imam Ali son of Musa, (9) Imam Muhammad son of Ali, (10)Imam Ali son of Muhammad, (11) Imam Hasan son of Ali, and the last and living Imam Muhammad son of Hasan, the establisher of the Truth till the end of this world (PBUT). There is no successor to the Twelfth Holy Imam Muhammad ibnul Hassan (PBUH) and he is LIVING today but is in occultation and appears only to those who are most in need and to those who are most virtuous and pious. By the Command of Allah, he will reappear to all when he will establish true justice on earth and will rule mankind compassionately with utmost
perfection as is the Will of the Almighty Allah. He will abolish the evil establishments on earth and mankind will live under true guidance as should have been many centuries ago!
Qiyaamat - (Resurrection) - Belief in the Day of Judgement when all human
beings shall be raised from the dead and all their good and bad deeds shall be
ultimately judged and recompensed accordingly. This belief is most essential
WITH the belief in the One True God. The Day of Judgement will prove to all in
this Universe that the Almighty Allah is the Creator of all from nothing and is the Absolute Master. His divine presence shall be most apparent on this important Day for all to witness. It is a judgement Dayfor His creatures to know themselves and their relationship to the Creator Allah. Just as pursuit for justice is inseperable in any society on earth, so is the Ultimate Day of Justice inseparable for mankind.
Furoo-ad-Deen (Branches of Religion)
Salat (Prayers)
Saum (Fasting)
Hajj (Pilgrimage)
Zakat (Poor Rate)
Khums (Wealth Tax)
Jihad (Striving)
Amr-Bil-Ma'roof (Enjoin what is good)
Nahi-Anil-Munkar (Forbid what is wrong)
Tawalla (To love and respect the Ahl-ul-Bait and their friends)
Tabarra (To disassociate from the enemies of the Ahl-ul-Bait)
May I know who are the enemies of the Ahl-ul-Bait.
Farhina Well done. IF Faceup/Nimbo still donot understand and want to become the judge of who is Muslim/Non Muslim let them be.
What i have seen from their notes the conclusion i can draw is:
THAT YAZID IS GONE BUT HIS GENERATION IS STILL AROUND AND THE DIRTY BLOOD CALLS FOR THESE NOTES.
SORRY IN MY LAST MESSAGE I GOT THE NAME WRONG, IT IS FACEUP/CHAND MIAN NOT NIMBO.
SORRY NIMBO