Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
only until some one open a thread about it...
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
This exchange has left one of us confused, Monk bhi
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Some of you guys are living in serious bubbles, including those living in Pakistan. It is very well known that the rich of Pakistan have no clue what goes on with the lower class and the middle classes in Pakistan.
I go to Pakistan for months at a time every 2-3 years, since I was a baby, so I have enough exposure that I can describe trends over time, that a constant dweller who lives in Model Town, Lahore, might not know about. In fact, anyone from the north here, who is Punjabi or Pathan basically has limited knowledge. How often do I find these people don’t even know there is a Chinese refugee population in Karachi for decades now and they speak Urdu. 
So let me drop some knowledge on you. At least this is what has been going on in Karachi.
Up until 911, jeans had crept in - and at least the GUYS were wearing jeans more than shalwaar kameez in the 80’s, 90’s. Then when 911 happened, things really changed. America went into Afghanistan and the Taliban started spreading propaganda since they jumped the border, came to Pakistan and hid along border towns. They played the victim card, and all of a sudden if you guys recall, everyone thought the “War on Terror” was actually a “War on Islam”. Which it sort of was, but that’s a side story. In REACTION, men started putting their shalwaars back on, started growing beards, and the women all of a sudden went from fashionable shalwaar kameez’s and college educations to burqas and staying at home with kids and spending time in dars’s.
For the upper class women, Farhat Hashmi lectures were in. She catered only to the rich (because like that’s totally Islamic), and so the poor and the lower middle class got their indoctrination from localized madrassas, often unregistered, and sometimes downright pathological. ex. Girl’s madrassa in Karachi where girls go in, and never come out for YEARS, no access to TV, or newspapers, are not taught English, only taught to memorize the Quran and are given manuals with Wahabbi-violent interpretations of the verses, and are taught that anyone outside the door has to be hated. This is fact. These madrassas exist, and it was all over TV. I didn’t even have to go there to see it. These people were interviewed in their own madrassas and the crazy came pouring out.
So, did everyone do this? No, thankfully, most people remained somewhat balanced, but there definitely was a higher focus on Islam, whether healthy or not. Some folks became tele-evangelists and became diehard fans of folks who conveniently grew a beard, read some books, and came on TV and acted like they knew everything. Some folks became readers, picking up all the literature on the market regarding Islam, because pre-911, there were A LOT of Pakistanis that had even abandoned practicing Ramadan and reading namaz. Not everyone but there was a segment of society as such. And if anyone knows about the literature in the markets in Pakistan on Islam, it’s very dangerous. I’ve picked up books that are filled with pure lies about Islam. Stuff that’s absolutely horrid, and you’ll easily find hatred literature in the bookstores. Meanwhile, try to find a feminist piece of work like Fatima Mernissi’s The Veil and the Male Elite and more knowledgeable store owners will flat out tell you it’s a banned book and they’ll get destroyed if they sell it. Because, like that’s Islamic. Fatima, btw, is perfectly muslim. For the bigots out there, just so they know.
So, yeah there was a change after 911.
And to deny it, is being blind.
In posh areas, things are more or less the same. The women are driven around in fancy cars (aka a Toyota bloody Corolla) and keep their windows up and look at their iphones - they have no clue what’s going on in the real world. Shuttled between home and school or work then home, or often work from home, so they don’t feel like what it is to REALLY work in Karachi, they are oblivious.
But go on any street in Karachi and it’s a sea of burqas. I remember the 80’s and 90’s in Karachi - you’d only find the low class unpar folks wearing burqas only in certain segments of the city, like where the pathans lived for example. But outside of that, people wore shalwaar kameez openly, their hair was exposed, and you could see their faces.
Now it’s burqas everywhere, and you actually stand out if you’re not wearing a burqa. I actually felt out of place the last time I was there, because if you’re not wearing a burqa now , you at least have a dupatta on your head. I was one of the few on the street that had my hair uncovered. I definitely felt out of place.
Locations I’ve been around: Clifton, Tariq Road, Bahadurrabad, Sindhi Muslim, Gulshan Iqbal, Saddar. So mainstream Karachi. Now go to Defense and you’ll see more modernized women walking around, but interspersed in this are definitely Arabized bungalows where the architecture and the people coming in and out make you think you’re in Kuwait.
So, while I don’t see everyone TALKING in Arabic, I think the prevalence of beards, hijabs, and burqas, and abayas, and niqabs are now so prevalent, that you don’t see the shalwaar kameez anymore, and you will definitely see some guys wearing Arabic thobes in Karachi. You can tell these are families that go and work part time in KSA and then come back for their vacation time.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Now having said that, do you know where SEVERE arabization is happening? In the US.
Pakistani families have either become super liberal or Arab-mimics. Go to any masjid and you will see Pakistani girls in Abayas - this is NOT our cultural dress. Burqa yes, from like 2-3 generations ago (Seriously now, its 2015!), but Abaya has NOTHING to do with Pakistan. Never did. You'll see them in hijabs (head coverings only) with western clothing - also NOT a Pakistani cultural thing.
Think about your parents or grandparents generation and look at the media from these times and dramas. The concept of hijab was totally foreign. Either you wore a burqa and you were thought to be super backwards, or you wore a shalwaar kameez, with a dupatta, maximum, over your head. Your face showed. Some tufts of hair showed. You had make up on your face. And your kameez showed a little bit of curve. Even among more conservative circles, this is how people dressed and it was considered "conservative" at that time.
Now these same people are sitting here and saying that this kind of dressing is HARAAM, and women need to cover their faces, and they need to wear an abaya or they're just not muslim.
Really the Arabization is not in the language. It's in the dress code. It's in the constant talking about Islam at dinner tables now where everyone has become a frikkin armchair scholar. It's European story books being replaced by misinformed and horribly written "Islamic" knowledge books and essays, which are littered with inaccuracies, misogyny, and propaganda. These things are HAVING INFLUENCE on the masses.
Young educated guys now, instead of focusing on their degrees and figuring out how to do good in the world are now joining terrorist organizations and becoming their masterminds. Not all, but enough that it's a serious worry. It only takes a few crazies to bomb hundreds and thousands of people.
So, yeah, I'm sorry, extremism is on the rise amongst Pakistanis and it's polarizing Pakistani people. A lot of people feel they can't relate to the burqa/abaya/beard thumpers and so people are now moving away from the masjids, and from spending time with other muslims. As a result, they are becoming increasingly less muslim in their ideas and behaviors.
You know this is coming from the Devil. You know it's coming from the Devil because it's resulting in nothing but destruction and polarization of our community.
There is NO PLACE in Islam for such dress restrictions. General guidelines are there, but you don't have to pick specifically an Abaya to qualify as a muslim woman. But that's how muslim women are being made to feel when they go to masjids, or in social gatherings. Nowhere is there a rule in Islam that you have to grow a beard. Nowhere. You can qualify as a heaven-going muslim and never have grown a beard your whole life. It's simply not in the Quran. It's not a deal breaker. It's a simple thing that Muhammad (SAW) did to bind his people together in a unity. Similar to the effect of a uniform. Where you feel like you're part of a team. You might as have every muslim borrow the same cap with an Islam logo on it, and it has the same psychological effect. It doesn't have to have a beard, but the CONCEPT is that muslims need to stick together.
Which they're not right now, because the dresses are polarizing people.
When people make you feel like you need to wear an abaya or a hijab to be muslim or you must grow a beard to be part of the Masjid team, it's no different than cult mentality. It is no longer about being part of a spiritual religion. It's about being in a cult.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
All I know is that for me, the abaya is the best thing since sliced bread. I spend every Friday/sat/Sunday of Ramadan at my masjid serving on the Ramadan committee. That means that from 1.5 hours prior to Iftar until taraweeh starts I am at the masjid helping, cleaning, setting up and serving dinner to appx 250-275 people a night. All outdoors. Our masjid is not big enough to accommodate our members inside so we serve and eat outside on picnic tables. In the Texas heat. The last thing I want to be fooling with is a shalwar kameez and dupatta that keeps getting undone and falling into the salan chafing dish. With an abaya, I can throw it on over yoga pants and a camisole and be set. It's the most comfortable thing ever. I have 3 abayas that last me all month. I would have to spend a fortune on a second wardrobe of shalwar kameez's to last me through the every Ramadan...no thank you!
Sometimes wearing an abaya is just wearing an abaya, not an arabization cult.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Sliced bread is no match for Naan
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Karachi is not whole of Pakistan. So typical to see posters from Karachi think they have the right to generalise whatever trends they see in their City to the whole country, but Pakistanis from other provinces don’t know jack about Pakistan because the country is only limited to Karachi! What do Punjabis and Pathans know about Pakistan, let’s just hear it from Karachi folks what a sheethole Pakistan is. Fine, positive and self confident Punjabi or Pathan opinion obviously don’t matter in front of an angry and bitter Karachiite. Right?
Fine. If Arabisation is prevalent on lower classes (unparh folks as you have called them) then stick to calling it a Karachi problem. Do not draw this broad brush generalisation for heavily populated provinces of Punjab and KPK where local culture is still the dominating force. Instead of calling Pathans and Punjabis living in a bubble, maybe, just maybe, it is the Karachiites who live in a bubble? See it can go both ways.
As with rest of your Hijab and Abaya hating post, honestly PCG, the extreme far right bigots in Britain say exactly the same things. They are always spewing the same old xenophobic crap about Hijab, Abaya, beard, prayer hate, and the so called foreign culture invasion…the only difference between you and some of those extreme right wing nutters is that they don’t give a hoot about lovely old Shalwar Kameez either. To them everything brown and ‘Musalmanic’ is foreign.
But thankfully people of Britain know a thing or tow about tolerance and freedom of choice. Diversity is hugely appreciated, differences are acknwoledged and celebrated by sane non bigoted majority who don’t live in perceptual xenophobic fear of foreign cultural invasion.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Now having said that, do you know where SEVERE arabization is happening? In the US.
Pakistani families have either become super liberal or Arab-mimics. Go to any masjid and you will see Pakistani girls in Abayas - this is NOT our cultural dress. Burqa yes, from like 2-3 generations ago (Seriously now, its 2015!), but Abaya has NOTHING to do with Pakistan. Never did. You'll see them in hijabs (head coverings only) with western clothing - also NOT a Pakistani cultural thing.
Think about your parents or grandparents generation and look at the media from these times and dramas. The concept of hijab was totally foreign. Either you wore a burqa and you were thought to be super backwards, or you wore a shalwaar kameez, with a dupatta, maximum, over your head. Your face showed. Some tufts of hair showed. You had make up on your face. And your kameez showed a little bit of curve. Even among more conservative circles, this is how people dressed and it was considered "conservative" at that time.
Now these same people are sitting here and saying that this kind of dressing is HARAAM, and women need to cover their faces, and they need to wear an abaya or they're just not muslim.
Really the Arabization is not in the language. It's in the dress code. It's in the constant talking about Islam at dinner tables now where everyone has become a frikkin armchair scholar. It's European story books being replaced by misinformed and horribly written "Islamic" knowledge books and essays, which are littered with inaccuracies, misogyny, and propaganda. These things are HAVING INFLUENCE on the masses.
Young educated guys now, instead of focusing on their degrees and figuring out how to do good in the world are now joining terrorist organizations and becoming their masterminds. Not all, but enough that it's a serious worry. It only takes a few crazies to bomb hundreds and thousands of people.
So, yeah, I'm sorry, extremism is on the rise amongst Pakistanis and it's polarizing Pakistani people. A lot of people feel they can't relate to the burqa/abaya/beard thumpers and so people are now moving away from the masjids, and from spending time with other muslims. As a result, they are becoming increasingly less muslim in their ideas and behaviors.
You know this is coming from the Devil. You know it's coming from the Devil because it's resulting in nothing but destruction and polarization of our community.
There is NO PLACE in Islam for such dress restrictions. General guidelines are there, but you don't have to pick specifically an Abaya to qualify as a muslim woman. But that's how muslim women are being made to feel when they go to masjids, or in social gatherings. Nowhere is there a rule in Islam that you have to grow a beard. Nowhere. You can qualify as a heaven-going muslim and never have grown a beard your whole life. It's simply not in the Quran. It's not a deal breaker. It's a simple thing that Muhammad (SAW) did to bind his people together in a unity. Similar to the effect of a uniform. Where you feel like you're part of a team. You might as have every muslim borrow the same cap with an Islam logo on it, and it has the same psychological effect. It doesn't have to have a beard, but the CONCEPT is that muslims need to stick together.
Which they're not right now, because the dresses are polarizing people.
When people make you feel like you need to wear an abaya or a hijab to be muslim or you must grow a beard to be part of the Masjid team, it's no different than cult mentality. It is no longer about being part of a spiritual religion. It's about being in a cult.
I think Khatti has perfectly answered your Hijab and Abaya hating.
NEWSFLASH:
Women from our grandmothers and mothers generation were not as actively involved in public life as they are now. The covering of head with duppata only came handy when visiting your local corner shop or people's houses. Nowadays, you have huge number of women full time studying in colleges, holding full time jobs in busy offices, running houses by themselves, spending considerable time outside of the house than inside, with such change of social dynamics, it makes far more sense to switch a 7 yard duppata for a pinned up Hijab. It's safe, convenient and shariah compliant. I am sorry, you are no one to raise an objection why people are following this or that aspect of their religion! You cannot stop them. As long those Hijabis aren't coming over to you and preaching....what is your problem that they wear Hiijab? It's their personal choice, and perhaps according to the school of thought they follow, maybe doing the Hijab is considered a mandatory religious obligation?
Yes, it is not rocket science, that Muslims and non Muslims after 9/11 developed a keen interest to study Islam as it became the centre of all the attention, hence you saw a huge surge in the number of conversions in Islam and Muslims who just became 'more Muslims' simply because 9/11 saw an unprecedented studying and research in Islam.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
A lot of women in my family wear hijab, and their reasoning is its more comfortable and less hassle free than chaadars which is fair enough.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Good post and you make some good points.
On the subject of Nawaz Sharif - he's had a few visits to Saudi Arabia recently. Must be keeping them up-to date about the odds of his pathetic government getting toppled over. He was all for sending us into Yemen - General Raheel had to step in.
Absolutely - if we want Pakistan to stop slaving to Arab states/any foreign countries, we have to step up in so many regards, with our choice of leaders being the first and most important issue. However as you said, there is decades of filth. Our politics is a mess and of course we can write whole books on this topic so I won't get into it. You know what's what!
I pray we get someone who will follow General Raheel's vision after next November. The progress and cleanup he has started must carry on.
I did not include you because I genuinely thought you were talking about Arabification of British Pakistanis which I completely agree with, and for most part, I am not even that offended by it. There is so much Pakistaniyat you can teach to second/third generation British born Pakistanis.
Yes, I stand by the correction that I find broad brush generalisation over Arabification, Westernisation, Indianisation very depressing and demotivating. What is Pakistani culture? Pakistan culture is actually a rich mixture and delicate balance of so many regional and foreign influences, and the balance changes from place to place, social class to social class, and time to time. This may not apply to you, but if you want people to not oppose things 'Hi' ' Bye' 'Good Morning' 'Good Evening' then stop throwing moral outrage on words like InshAllah, MashAllah, Allah Hafiz. We need to show some tolerance, you cannot dictate how people dress, how they speak, etc. If you want to be a cohesive and united society, you have to show tolerance to these little things so people come together despite the differences, and feel some acceptance.
Today, you have made a thread on how Pakistanis are morphing into Arabs (by being more religiously conservative?) and seeing themselves as inferior, I can bet in a month's time, there will be a thread or discussion in the exact same place where someone will be arguing how Pakistanis are no way as good as mighty Arabs are inferior because Arab women have more freedom and supposedly wear tank tops and shorts in front of their men, whereas our poor women are so bounded and so restricted by 'desi' cultural norms which basically means those poor women are always wearing shalwar kameez. I honestly think such debates confuse and divide the nation.
In regards to Arab influence in Pakistan, it took decades of politically motivated , state sponsored systematic proliferation of Arab wahabi influence to create sectarian, cultural and class divides. It is only now that Pakistanis have realised the extent of damage and working to reverse it without alienating any chunk of the society. Yet despite such dangerous and prolonged experiment: Pakistan in terms of its security and internal rest is at far better place than plenty of Arab countries. We may be religious but we are not inherently militantly sectarian. We have the second largest patriotic Shia community, the Sunni group is largely dominated by Barelvi/Sufi traditions - both groups have absolutely no reason to emulate the Saudi style wahabism and cultural imperialism. As with 'some morons' still supporting Yemen intervention, again you will have opposition and dissent groups in democracy.
Coming back to my original point: the once state sponsored Saudi influences won't fade overnight, yet we have to be patient and tolerant. I really appreciate Imran when he says those madaraasahs kids are our kids. They are Pakistanis. I cannot demonise and alienate them by targeting the circumstances and situation they are in, and create an us vs them divide. But I can make them part of the mainstream society, by creating more schools and opportunities for them. Bashing them, blaming them, side lining them, doubting them for just being madarassah kids won't achieve any good. They are Pakisanis and they victims of state policies, and gross social and economic injustice. This may be irrelevant to what you were saying, but I am just saying that despite acknowledging the differences, we still need to have a patient and all inclusive approach. We can all be proud Pakistanis and come together as a group despite being so different in our ideas, thoughts, opinions, background and appearances.
If you want Pakistanis to stop extensively appreciating Saudis and Gulf states, we should have an attempt industrialising country, creating job opportunities to stop the Arab countries from being the largest employer of Pakistani blue labour. Or just stop electing leaders who have business in Arab countries and are simply puppet of Saudi Kingdoms. Kudos to Raheel Sharif for changing the tide. Some kind of start has been made, but it will be a long, hard and tedious process to reverse the effects and legacies of past policies, again some kind of start has been made, and we need to be patient.
For the next elections, Pakistanis should aim to elect a leader who is not a favourite poster boy or a human Trojan horse of any foreign power, and I already know such individual. :)
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
LondonsAngriest?
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
At least people are admitting they are seeing dupattas replaced by hijabs and abayas. It's not a comfort issue. It's a mimic of the arabization from the western muslims. This trend started in the US, UK and Canada and other such countries where dupattas would be considered super exotic, and they're difficult to wear with American clothes. Pakistani women saw Arabs wearing abayas and hijabs in the west and having zero interest in keeping up their pakistani culture, they swapped out their paki culture for Arabic culture. When people go visit family in Pakistan the trend grew.
As for Punjab and KPK most of it is rural. Cut out posh model town and the drawing rooms of Peshawar, women are STILL mostly veiled in these areas, KPK more than Punjab. How do I know? Open the TV and watch regional news coverage and see how women are wandering around. A lot of burqas these days. In the 80-90's this trend was going away and now in the same households where burqas were shed, there are now abayas.
It has nothing to do with comfort. Abayas existed 30 years ago but no one was wearing them. No such shops in karachi in fact and I doubt there were in other cities. At least not commonly found. It's a new trend and it has to do with copycat of trends with muslims in the west and those trends are heavily influenced by Pakistani populations meeting arab and Persian populations in the west. You don't see them wearing the dupatta so why are we adopting hijabs and abayas?
No one has addressed the rapid rise in bearded men.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Even if it is a new "trend" born from America, why is that seen as a negative? I don't consider Pakistani culture 100% my own because I'm not Pakistani. I'm American Muslim. If I've adopted ONE aspect of Arab culture who cares? It is about comfort, pure and simple. Just like I hang "Ramadan Stockings" on my fireplace for my kids and decorate my staircase bannister..that also is an adopted practice. Tomorrow if I learn something about Indonesian culture that resonates with me I'll start doing that too. We're all here to learn from eachother and assimilate...like the melting pot analogy. When it makes sense I wear shalwar kameez, when it doesn't I don't...and if an abaya is more practical then so be it. It has nothing to do with wanting to be an Arab Sheeple.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Resonance can be destructive at times. Ask the marching soldiers.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
PCG, how do you know they have nothing to do with comfort or convenience because I would have thought those would be quite good reasons.. abaayas are relatively simple and that means the wearer if she's very practising doesn't have to worry about bright colours, ostentation, needing to cover up the neckline etc etc plus they conceal the figure pretty well.. I would have thought they'd make sense for women who are more religious..
Them not being widely sold or worn much 30 years ago doesn't mean they're a bad thing.. would you say the same about women wearing trousers ?
I'm not into beards myself but like abaayas and hijab it's all about personal choice and people have every right to do what they feel comfortable with.. As long as they're not hurting others or imposing their choices on us why should we be so bothered?
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
The truth behind Arabification of Pakistan is same as truth behind Ku Klux Klanization of Riyasat Haye Muthahida Amreeka. A fear, an exaggeration. That is all.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Sick of it. Dressing like Arabs, speaking Urdu with an Arabic accent. No reason for it at all, no religious requirements. Just an(other) inferiority complex.
Arabs consider us to be lower than pond scum.
This whole charade angers me immensely. Not sure if my anger is truly coming across or not, but believe me, I am pissed.
Only thing I am sick of is fat aunties trying to fit in tight jeans and speaking broken English.
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
Better than broken jeans and tight English
Re: Arabification of Pakistan and Pakistani culture:
At least people are admitting they are seeing dupattas replaced by hijabs and abayas. It's not a comfort issue. It's a mimic of the arabization from the western muslims. This trend started in the US, UK and Canada and other such countries where dupattas would be considered super exotic, and they're difficult to wear with American clothes. Pakistani women saw Arabs wearing abayas and hijabs in the west and having zero interest in keeping up their pakistani culture, they swapped out their paki culture for Arabic culture. When people go visit family in Pakistan the trend grew.
As for Punjab and KPK most of it is rural. Cut out posh model town and the drawing rooms of Peshawar, women are STILL mostly veiled in these areas, KPK more than Punjab. How do I know? Open the TV and watch regional news coverage and see how women are wandering around. A lot of burqas these days. In the 80-90's this trend was going away and now in the same households where burqas were shed, there are now abayas.
It has nothing to do with comfort. Abayas existed 30 years ago but no one was wearing them. No such shops in karachi in fact and I doubt there were in other cities. At least not commonly found. It's a new trend and it has to do with copycat of trends with muslims in the west and those trends are heavily influenced by Pakistani populations meeting arab and Persian populations in the west. You don't see them wearing the dupatta so why are we adopting hijabs and abayas?
No one has addressed the rapid rise in bearded men.
Newsflash: Punjab is the most urbanised province of Pakistan.
It is better if you leave Punjab and Lahore out of this discussion, it only reveals your ignorance. Chances are you have never set foot on either Lahore and Punjab, and if I start bashing America on the basis of what we see on TV you'll get very very hurt! What do you know the rich diversity, tolerance and social harmony in Punjab.
As with your rest of your hijab and abaya hating posts, honestly, I see no difference between you and extreme right wing bigots we have in the West who equate Hijab and beards with extremism, and foreign cultural invasion. It's the same type of xenophobia and prejudice and stereotyping.
If you have the guts to condemn burqa and hijab in the name Pakistaniyat, then lend the same courtesy and tolerance to those who condemn women wearing jeans and tops in the name of Pakistaniyat. If not, you are just a HYPOCRITE!
I find it pathetically hypocritical that when Hijabis get gun down in America, likes of you are preaching tolerance, freedom of choice, freedom to practice religion, but when it comes to Pakistani Hijabis, you are questioning their love and commitment to country's culture and identity. What exactly is the difference between you and racist French politicians who think French Muslims are not French enough and they betray their country by wearing headscarves?
It is your narrow mindedness and limited experience which makes you think that 30 years is not a huge amount of time for country's culture, Pakistan women's contributions in public life and lifestyle to visibly change.
Let's just sit here and collectively wail about the good old innocent PTV days where you saw on TV what the state wanted you to see.