Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
did u just change your avatar to prove a point too bundoo-khan?
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Dude,
Just relax; you need a drink or a girl or something.
Cause I m sure it will take me but few hours to find out how good a Muslim you are.
Everyone has there opinions and they are free (may be not in your country) to share it, only as there opinions,
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Please refrain from insulting each other, others and their beliefs, and unnecessarily picking on each other. Stay focused on topic at hand, please.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
I do understand his opinions and respect them,
My apologies if I offended someone
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Yes, God forbid we pick on each other. Instead, let's keep discussions limited to calling for the death of those who disagree with us.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Namaste!
Does apostality work both ways or just on the way out? Anyway, it doesn't sound like something that God would approve, let alone propose.
Bye
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Apostasy is crime in islam if person becomes non muslim they have to discuss the reasons why through the correct channels, and if it is clear that the person will remain murtad than the punishment will be meted out, however pakistan is a secular state and this punishment can only be executed by the authroities in an islamic state.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
That this is actually being discussed in the 21st century is frightening. If there is any fear or loathing of Islam among non-Muslims, here is the basis. If there is any wonder why countries are banning hijab in public, there shouldn't be. If there is any reason to fight against the formation of an Islamic state, this is it. For those who want to declare Islam as tolerant or there is no compulsion in religion, why let others spread filth like murdering apostates?
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
^^ what he said... geez
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Any sense of “oneness” has it’s share of people who believe disagreeing should be punished by death..in a nation state that is codified under treason laws.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Can a state really mandate a religion and force someone to believe something they don't? How exactly does one impose spirituality? Unless through brainwashing, because even with the threat of death you can't change something so personal and private as religion. How does one's personal belief system affect a nation's security as treason would? That is quite a stretch.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
perhaps but think of it like this.. states mandate ideology (commuism/capitalism/fascism). Two hundred year ago the concept of treason against a nation did not exist and challenging religious beliefs was a capital punishment in most places (Britain & I believe many states of the US).
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
States mandating national economic policy does not come close to mandating personal religious philosophy. The rest of your post is equally WRONG.
Treason has been a punishable offense throughout the world for thousands of years.
The US was settled by people escaping religious persecution. They were fleeing 400 years ago from the very thing you are helping to promote today.
BOTTOM LINE: It is impossbile to mandate a religion. And it does nothing to promote the religion itself except to expose it as an intolerant, insecure, cruel and non-spiritual system.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Seminole, interesting thoughts. I feel if Islamic punishments were to be imposed in a Muslim state, it would greatly reduce the crime rate. However, it would deter foreigners from settling and trading with the country.
Then again, this is what many other countries seem to be doing either intentionally or unintentionally by banning hijaabs. It would obviously compel those who wish to observe hijaab to settle in a Muslim country or another country where observing hijaab is permissible. Similarly, if Shariah is to be applied literally, it would require those who are not in favour of it to settle elsewhere. It seems like a fair bargain to me.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
national economic policy? there is much more to the US philosophy of state then a economic system..that is like saying communism and fascism were just economic systems. Can you honestly tell me people were not targetted by the state in the US for being communists during the cold war?
Although i concede ideology can’t compare to the sweeping nature of a religion ..
I disagree, betraying ones King was a punishable offence or blaspheming was a punishable offence..treason against a state or republic as a concept did not exist till the French and American revolutions.
I agree mandating a religion does not mean the religion is promoted but one can mandate a religion..the Church of England is recognised as the State religion of England for example.
I agree with your last line..
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Yes, communists were targeted (wrongly) by the US during the cold war, but they were seen as a threat to national security. And they were not put to death. Does a non-Muslim citizen of a majority-Muslim country pose a threat?
Since state or republics did not exist until then, you are right. But treason in a broad sense relates to betraying the governing authority of any entity.
No matter the name of the Church of England, they do not require citizens to follow it. It is not mandated by any stretch.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
The principle is the same..discriminate or terminate..I use the US as one example…but other states guided by ideology have been far more brutal ..communist and fascist states have an infinite examples of what was done to people who were even suspected of holding “subversive” beliefs
Again thats a wrong comparison ..while some individuals may believe Islam is threatened by the presence of non Muslims..it is the same way conversely some non Muslims believe Muslims pose a threat to the state.
Practically things have been quite different, using a more recent example of the Ottoman Empire they used to employ a simple approach to non Muslims, they were judged by their own laws (this agreement of “millet” was referred to as the Capitulations) and Muslims were judged by Shariah law. The logic is similar to one that would be employed in a state treason act. Who gets punished for treason a US citizen or a non US citizen?
Yes attacking what it stands for and opposing what it believes …many Americans believe that people who don’t believe in what the US stands for as a nation are either traitors or should be expelled.
That depends, on at what age of history you look at..Cromwell was puritan ..and institutional discrimination against Catholics was one of the foundation stones of the Protestant state.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
Seminole, you are having trouble understand our basic philosophical position. The source of all truth and the source of all value for us is Alla'h Sub'ha'ana' w'a ta'al'a. Unless you accept this fact we will do nothing but talk at cross-purposes.
The philosophical foundation of Westernism, and the doctrines you espouse (of freedom of religion, importance of spirituality, etc) are based on the denial of a supreme divine entity. For us Allah is the supreme arbiter of the truth.
Now you can argue with us from the internal point of view or the external one. Internally, you can challenge us as regards the liturgical basis of our religious propositions (incl. whether apostates should be put to death). From an external point of view, you would challenge the whole belief-system represented by Islam, an entire world-philosophy, a complete code of conduct for each and EVERY aspect of life.
what you are trying to do is to challenge us internally by pointing out that "no, apostasy is not punishable by death in Islam". We can offer you more than convincing evidence, backed up by juristic analysis, that apostasy is a capital offence in Islam.
But if you wish to challenge us externally, if you wish to challenge the whole weltanschauung of Islam, because you regard its application in practice barbaric, then you are condemning us en masse. you are condemning the 150,000,000 people of Pakistan who want apostates to be put to death.
I conclude by shrieking: Allahu Akbar. Allahu Akbar. Allahu Akbar.
Re: Apostasy should be made a crime in Pakistan
And I wouldn’t favor that any more than a mandated religion or you die.
We are talking about laws, and what the state will or won’t enforce, not individual’s feelings
There are things throughout history that man has done that is now seen as unenlightened, cruel or barbaric. I am talking about today. And the future.