Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
evolution isn’t observable? 
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
to this the gang will reply - have you seen monkey turn into a man?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
to this the gang will reply - have you seen monkey turn into a man?
That is not evolution ... That would be metamorphosis ... Anyway, what will you reply?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
How can it be? It takes millions of years to happen …
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
How can it be? It takes millions of years to happen ...
This circular argument with you is getting redundant Psyah saab. I don't think this is worth debating now.
I understand your argument, and I reject it as unreasonable and shortsighted, I'm sorry.
The bottom line here is that this is basically the core of your argument, that you can't see it. But this is an unreasonable argument. It seems like a desperate attempt to salvage your world view according to YOUR interpretation of Islam by grasping at straws.
The fact of the matter is that while we can't see a turtle turning into a horse, we can deduce from the evidence that this indeed can happen. There is a preponderance of evidence to support it from multiple sources, not just fossil. Now you can assume that all the evidence is false, and cling to the minuscule hope that somehow you are right, but you are flying in the face of logic and reason. i accept that that there is a tiny chance you are right, but its so small a chance as to be practically impossible. i mean there is a small chance according to quantum mechanics that i could disappear from here and appear instantaneously on Mars. But the chances of that happening are so small, that its an impossible thing. I suspect however that that tiny chance, 1 in a trillion is enough for you to start preparing for a holiday on Mars...
In the end, if it swims like a duck and quake's like a duck, ITS A DUCK! Unless for some reason you discover in the Islam that Dogs can also quake, then you will begin questioning that as well.
And to end this, Moral and ethical truths are not the same thing as scientific truths or FACTS. In your Islamic zeal, you are imparting upon the Koran that which it was never intended to be. Namely, a Science text.
The greatest hindrance to spiritual growth is clinging to any rigid ideology in the face of all evidence. Your ideology blinds you to reality as far as I'm concerned. You should learn to be more reasonable, and less literal in your understanding of the koran, which is what you are when you tell me man is made out of mud. Your reality, what you see around you, should inform your understanding of Islam. Your understanding of Islam shouldn't inform your understanding of reality. If something in reality does not conform with your understanding of islam, then its not reality that should be questions, its your understanding of Islam.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Yes its absolute mental gymnastics to try and say that God didn't tell the arabs about evolution because he couldn't think of a way to make them understand. This is just a method for you to try and integrate your two beliefs. You really believe god to be so limited?
Evolution says that our species arose from a previous species which was also a common ancestor to other apes.
God tells us that he created the first man from clay (dust mixed with water). We didn't arise from a previous species.
There is no middle ground where these two beliefs can be harmonized. Either one contradicts the other. It is an act of mental gymnastics to try and do so.
Why do you assume GOD WOULD teach the arabs of man creation through evolution? You would argue I'm sure that God wouldn't leave out something so essential to our understanding of our reality.
Yet I would argue that God has left a HUGE amount of information pertaining to our existence out of the Koran! Why? I can name multiple things God choose not to mention.
But no, you think God would have definently explained Evolution in all its intricacies to the Arabs, even though he completely ignored other equally important things!
The problem with you is that your a literalist, for whom simplistic ideas are the core of your belief. But the Universe is not so simple.
Its ridiculous to the extreme. if this came out a childs mouth I would think it were cute, but i assume you are an adult, and yet you believe people are made out of dust and water?!?! Can you prove it? This is what we call magical thinking.
I don't know whether I should laugh at you or weap over your staunch and blind belief.
No there is a way to harmonize the two, and its simply to understand that the Koran is not meant to be Science text book. When god says man is made of "dust and water" aka mud, he means we are off this earth. He could refer to the primordial soup from which life sprang.
The lack of a middle ground is only in your mind. Its a lack of flexibility of mind, its this binding off one self to a certain world view which is dangerous. You are desperately clinging to the edges here just to prop up this ideology that you yourself have constructed. You are living in denial and ignornce. Its like the inmates of an asylum telling everyone outside that they are the crazy ones!
Now Evolution is a fact. Its supported by evidence. That it wasn't mentioned in Koran, I assume is because God wouldn't explain something that wasn't relevant to the intention of the message, or wasn't something he felt the Arabs could grasp at that time, or perhaps he wanted to leave it to prosperity to divulge. But you would assume evidence is all an illusion, that its all a lie.
Atleast we avail ourselves of our mental capacities, you guys are living in perpetual denial of reality.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
i just don't understand how literalists have any leg to stand on in an discussion like this. created out of clay? how exactly?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
How can it be? It takes millions of years to happen ...
not really. some of the forms of speciation happens in just one generation. there are numerous observed and documented cases.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
i just don't understand how literalists have any leg to stand on in an discussion like this. created out of clay? how exactly?
God ofcourse! Unlike the crazy myths about mother earth and father sky getting it on, or the great sea turtle carrying the world on its back, we believe we were made our of mud! completely rational!
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
Peace Med911
What is your world view of a miracle? Do you also interpret the ideas that Isa (AS) made a bird out of clay and breathed into it and it came to life? Is that too far off the creation of mankind?
It appears there were people who were sceptics …even in his (AS)'s time …
http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=9482
Isa a.s was 29 years when he began his preaching a.s as a prophet and came before Bani Israil and said: O people I am the messenger of God and came as a prophet. Accept my sayings and obey me and do not say foul language about me. The Gracious God send me with numerous miracles to guide you.
Quran 3:49 And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.”
They said: What miracles did you bring.
Isa a.s replied: I will make bird out of clay and blow life into it and it will also fly with thy permission.
They said: how will you do it.
Isa a.s immediately created a bird from clay and blow breath into it. After which the bird began to fly.
They said: What more miracles do you have?
Isa a.s replied: I can render sight to the blind by birth and can cure a leper. All these miracles are the sign of my prophecy.
A group of people believed him and many of them said that he was a magician
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
There you go again..
Misconceptions about evolution
MISCONCEPTION: Evolution is not science because it is not observable or testable.
CORRECTION: This misconception encompasses two incorrect ideas: (1) that all science depends on controlled laboratory experiments, and (2) that evolution cannot be studied with such experiments. First, many scientific investigations do not involve experiments or direct observation. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but both scientists can learn a great deal about the universe through observation and comparison. In the same way, evolutionary biologists can test their ideas about the history of life on Earth by making observations in the real world. Second, though we can’t run an experiment that will tell us how the dinosaur lineage radiated, we can study many aspects of evolution with controlled experiments in a laboratory setting. In organisms with short generation times (e.g., bacteria or fruit flies), we can actually observe evolution in action over the course of an experiment. And in some cases, biologists have observed evolution occurring in the wild. To learn more about rapid evolution in the wild, visit our news story on climate change, our news story on the evolution of PCB-resistant fish, or our research profile on the evolution fish size in response to our fishing practices. To learn more about the nature of science, visit the Understanding Science website.
…and to give you an observable instance of evolution in laboratory settings..
Time in a bottle: Scientists watch evolution unfold over 40,000 generations
Contact: Michael Steger, College of Natural Science, Office: (517) 432-4561, [email protected]; Richard Lenski, Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, [email protected]
Published: Oct. 19, 2009 E-mail Editor ShareThis
EAST LANSING, Mich. — A 21-year Michigan State University experiment that distills the essence of evolution in laboratory flasks not only demonstrates natural selection at work, but could lead to biotechnology and medical research advances, researchers said.
Charles Darwin’s seminal Origin of Species first laid out the case for evolution exactly 150 years ago. Now, MSU professor Richard Lenski and colleagues document the process in their analysis of 40,000 generations of bacteria, published this week in the international science journal Nature.
Lenski, John A. Hannah Distinguished Professor of microbial ecology, started growing cultures of fast-reproducing, single-celled E. coli bacteria in 1988. If a genetic mutation gives a cell an advantage in competition for food, he reasoned, it should dominate the entire culture. While Darwin’s theory of natural selection is supported by other studies, it has never before been studied for so many cycles and in such detail.
“It’s extra nice now to be able to show precisely how selection has changed the genomes of these bacteria, step by step over tens of thousands of generations,” Lenski said.
Lenski’s team periodically froze bacteria for later study, and technology has since developed to allow complete genetic sequencing. By the 20,000-generation midpoint, researchers discovered 45 mutations among surviving cells. Those mutations, according to Darwin’s theory, should have conferred some advantage, and that’s exactly what the researchers found.
The results “beautifully emphasize the succession of mutational events that allowed these organisms to climb toward higher and higher efficiency in their environment,” noted Dominique Schneider, a molecular geneticist at the Université Joseph Fourier in Grenoble, France.
Lenski’s long-running experiment itself is uniquely suited to answer some critical questions – such as whether rates of change in a bacteria’s genome move in tandem with its fitness to survive.
“The coupling between genomic and adaptive evolution is complex and can be counterintuitive,” Lenski concluded. “The genome was evolving along at a surprisingly constant rate, even as the adaptation of the bacteria slowed down a lot. But then suddenly the mutation rate jumped way up, and a new dynamic relationship was established.”
A mutation involved in DNA metabolism arose around generation 26,000, causing the mutation rate everywhere else in the genome to increase dramatically. The number of mutations jumped to 653 by generation 40,000, but researchers surmise that most of the late-evolving mutations were not helpful to the bacteria.
Gene mutations involved in human DNA replication are involved in some cancers. Many of the patterns observed in the experiment also occur in certain microbial infections, “and cancer progression is a fundamentally similar evolutionary process,” observed collaborator Jeffrey Barrick. “So what we learn here can help us better understand the course of these diseases.”
Barrick, a postdoctoral researcher in MSU’s Department of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics, developed computational tools to discover and validate often complex mutations. “We know an astounding amount about the details of evolution in these little Erlenmeyer flasks,” he said.
The Nature paper involved collaboration with scientists from South Korea as well as France and MSU. The research, said genomics team leader Jihyun Kim of the Korea Research Institute of Bioscience and Biotechnology, “is not only useful in understanding the tempo and mode of evolution, but can serve as a nice framework for practical applications in biotechnology, such as improving the performance or productivity of an industrial strain.”
Thousands of generations later, the MSU experiment continues to evolve. “Like a lot of science, our study answers some questions but raises many others,” Lenski said.
The research has been supported by the National Science Foundation and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
How can it be? It takes millions of years to happen ...
Science is magic.. kala jadoo.. for a simpler understanding for you and your mullah..!!!
Planet earth came in existence 4.6 billion years ago. Scientist have a kala jadoo which is called Radio Isotope Dating Method.. with which they can exactly determine the age of the earth. Not only that using this jadoo they can also determine the age of every fossil, rock, layer of the earth crust etc. from the last time it went through a major change.
Literal understanding of the Holy Writings would force you to believe the existence of such Kala Jadoo..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
How variant is this explanation about evolution? You’ve posted this before in the other thread … Put that paragraph about evolution being a fact and this explanation of evolution being a science together … It is laughable …
Now as per definition 2 - evolution is a fact, because it is:
a) Explanation
b) Testable
c) Corroborated
Now this explanation of evolution being a science (no longer is it a fact - but a science) is saying evolution does not need to be testable to be a science and for scientific work to be undertaken … Ok … that is fine, but then please don’t call evolution a “fact” … Evolution science is simply the endeavour to use science and scientific experiments to work out how life became diverse within the proviso that all experimental conclusions stem and are governed by the accepted idea of change through the process of procreation.
People like Harun Yahya have shown that the same biological studies can render starkly different conclusions … we study biology and other sciences to confirm our scriptures … and our studies are no lesser than the other studies in depth and scientific accuracy.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Science is magic.. kala jadoo.. for a simpler understanding for you and your mullah..!!!
Planet earth came in existence 4.6 billion years ago. Scientist have a kala jadoo which is called Radio Isotope Dating Method.. with which they can exactly determine the age of the earth. Not only that using this jadoo they can also determine the age of every fossil, rock, layer of the earth crust etc. from the last time it went through a major change.
Literal understanding of the Holy Writings would force you to believe the existence of such Kala Jadoo..
You have just spewed nonesense ... and what is this "me and my mulla" you keep talking about ???
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
Bhai meray..
People in mental asylums laugh all the time and sincerely believe that everyone outside these asylums is crazy.
You don’t recognize National Academy of Sciences with 2200 highest achievers in the field of science including more than 300 living nobel laureates. You don’t pay attention to the links I have given which clearly indicates that Evolution is observable from University of Michigan experiment continuing for last 24 years. You have no concept of terminologies like natural selection, genetic drift, gene pool, Mendelian law of genetic assortment, geological history of earth, radio active dating, bio diversity etc. etc. because your Mullah forbade you to read these concepts. You can not differentiate between a Scientific fact and a linguistic fact. You continuously rant absurd things like:
-
Evolution is not observable.. which is a blatant lie.
-
Theory of evolution can not be disproved.. a single fossil of a mammal from precambrian era will toss the whole theory of evolution in to waste bin.
-
There is no evidence of speciation.. totally ignoring the fact that still a vast majority of life forms on this planet reproduce asexually, and thus the question of valid reproducing offspring does not arise for these.
Misconceptions about evolution
MISCONCEPTION: Species are distinct natural entities, with a clear definition, that can be easily recognized by anyone.
CORRECTION: Many of us are familiar with the biological species concept, which defines a species as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. That definition of a species might seem cut and dried — and for many organisms (e.g., mammals), it works well — but in many other cases, this definition is difficult to apply. For example, many bacteria reproduce mainly asexually. How can the biological species concept be applied to them? Many plants and some animals form hybrids in nature, even if they largely mate within their own groups. Should groups that occasionally hybridize in selected areas be considered the same species or separate species? The concept of a species is a fuzzy one because humans invented the concept to help get a grasp on the diversity of the natural world. It is difficult to apply because the term species reflects our attempts to give discrete names to different parts of the tree of life — which is not discrete at all, but a continuous web of life, connected from its roots to its leaves.
Who is Harun Yahya?
Did he win a Nobel prize for natural sciences? Does he have any credibility in the scientific circles at all.
He is just a muslim cleric with literal creationist ideas whose value is not more than an entertaining clown amongst serious scientific community. You are so proudly quoting him.. Now I know exactly from where you are coming from. You are follower of a nut case like Harun Yahya (Oktar)..
Adnan Oktar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Conspiracy theories
Oktar propagates a number of conspiracy theories, beginning with his 1986 Yahudilik ve Masonluk (Judaism and Freemasonry). The book suggests that the principal mission of Jews and Freemasons in Turkey was to erode the spiritual, religious, and moral values of the Turkish people and, thus, make them like animals, as stated in what Oktar refers to as their use of “Distorted Torah.” Oktar asserts that “the materialist standpoint, evolution theory, anti-religious and immoral lifestyles were indoctrinated to the society as a whole” by Jews and Freemasons.
Oktar’s theory of a global conspiracy of Freemasonry is expounded in his book Global Masonluk (English Global Freemasonry) and on his websites Masonluk and Global Freemasonry. According to Oktar, Freemasonry is “the main architect of the world system based on materialist philosophy, but which keeps that true identity concealed.” Oktar claims that the theory of evolution is a Masonic conspiracy initiated by the Rosicrucians.
Oktar’s recent publications declare Darwinism and Materialism to be conspiracies responsible for anti-semitism and terrorism. In recent publications and interviews (since 2004), Oktar qualifies his condemnations of Zionism and Freemasonry by adding the word atheist before them, as in atheist Zionists and atheist Freemasons.
** Holocaust Denial and Affirmation**
In 1996, BAV distributed its first book, originally published the previous year, entitled Soykırım Yalanı (The Holocaust Lie).The publication of Soykırım Yalanı sparked much public debate.[53] This book claims that “what is presented as Holocaust is the death of some Jews due to the typhus plague during the war and the famine towards the end of the war caused by the defeat of the Germans.”
A Turkish painter and intellectual, Bedri Baykam, published a strongly worded critique of the book in the Ankara daily newspaper Siyah-Beyaz (“Black and White”). A legal suit for slander was brought against him. During the trial in September, Baykam exposed the real author of The Holocaust Lie as Adnan Oktar. The suit was withdrawn in March 1997.
In 2001, the Stephen Roth Institute, of Tel-Aviv University, listed Oktar as a Holocaust denier due to the publication of The Holocaust Lie.
Three years later the Stephen Roth Institute expressed the opinion that Adnan Oktar had increased his tolerance toward others, asserting that “he now works towards promoting inter-religious dialogue”. calling upon all Muslims to have “a tolerant and friendly attitude toward other religions”.
In 2006, BAV published a book affirming the Holocaust, called The Holocaust Violence. The Holocaust Violence states “The Nazis subjected European Jews to indisputable and unforgivable cruelty during World War II. They humiliated, insulted and degraded millions of Jewish civilians, forcing them from their homes and enslaving them in concentration camps under inhuman conditions… Certainly the Jewish people, of whom 5.5 million died in concentration camps, were the worst victims of the Nazi barbarity.”
In a 2007 interview with The Guardian, Oktar denied writing The Holocaust Lie, a claim that The Guardian stated was “hard to believe.”[60] The next year in an interview with Der Spiegel, Adnan Oktar stated that “The Holocaust Lie,” had been written by a friend who had published his own essays using Oktar’s pen-name “Harun Yahya”, upon his own initiative. Oktar disclaimed the first book, and said the second book reflected his own opinions.
In 2009, Oktar expressed his views for Jews in his own words, "hatred or anger toward the line of the Prophet Abraham is completely unacceptable. The Prophet Abraham is our ancestor, and the Jews are our brothers. We want the descendants of the Prophet Abraham to live in the easiest, pleasantest and most peaceful manner. We want them to be free to perform their religious obligations, to live as they wish in the lands of their forebears and to frequently remember Allah in comfort and security."In 2009 and 2010, Oktar published several websites of Jewish interest.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
You have just spewed nonesense ... and what is this "me and my mulla" you keep talking about ???
Every kind of scientific-logical discussion has been totally useless with you.. may be this Kala Jadoo theory will work on you.
Your Mullah is the one you blindly follow and who is also your source for science information. I didn't know who is the specific Mullah you are following.. Now I know exactly that you follow a nut case like Harun Yahya..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Bhai meray..
People in mental asylums laugh all the time and sincerely believe that everyone outside these asylums is crazy.
1) Evolution is not observable.. which is a blatant lie.
2) Theory of evolution can not be disproved.. a single fossil of a mammal from precambrian era will toss the whole theory of evolution in to waste bin.
3) There is no evidence of speciation.. totally ignoring the fact that still a vast majority of life forms on this planet reproduce asexually, and thus the question of valid reproducing offspring does not arise for these.
Peace yazdi
I don't believe anyone here or the scientists are crazy ... I laugh with concerted control ... and I string together cogent, rational and reasonable arguments ... I'm not asylum material, and if you believe I am then having a conversation with a nutjob like me puts a question over what you are intending to achieve. This is an interrogation so be prepared for it as am I ...
1) Evolution as a whole complete phenomenon is not observable and for anyone to say that it is then they should not use arguments such as "you don't understand evolution - it takes place over many many years" - do you want me to dig up some posts by you that you have stated in this way?
2) Yes I agree the theory of evolution cannot be disproved, just like the existence of God cannot be disproved ... but a question for you ... "why do you say that the existence of a mammal shown to be found living in the precambrian era will destroy evolution?" If evolution can't be disproved, then how is it that you present the method of its disproof and what has finding an animal in an era where it does not belong prove against evolution? It has nothing to do with evolution ... all it will do is one of two things ... evolution will evolve again stating that the first mammals came from this period and not this period as previously thought, or some other excuse - an anomaly. Fossils don't give information of the evolution mechanism they only give information of time and location and form of animal ... the idea behind the mechanism is all done in the human mind
3) Asexual reproduction does not confirm speciation either ... the creatures that asexually reproduce are amongst the organisms that have had the longest time in existence ... and when the discussion is talking about common ancestry, whether it is sexual or asexual it cannot be shown.
Regarding Harun Yahya ... take a look at what he says about evolution rather than using ways to discredit him that are not applicable to the subject ... That would be the scientific approach here ...
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
I don’t know. Could possibly be symbolic, possibly figurative. Could be an example of myth making. Who knows.
If you think evolution is crazy, try explaining how clay can become animate.
Belief in God automatically means you believe in some form of the unexplained. But then because such “miracles” are yet unexplained does not mean that everything in the Koran/Bible should be assumed to be unexplained.
As far as creation goes, evolution is sported by evidence, we now that we have evolved, while creation of everything as is, is not supported by anything but wishful thinking.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
How variant is this explanation about evolution? You've posted this before in the other thread ... Put that paragraph about evolution being a fact and this explanation of evolution being a science together ... It is laughable ...
Now as per definition 2 - evolution is a fact, because it is:
a) Explanation b) Testable c) Corroborated
Now this explanation of evolution being a science (no longer is it a fact - but a science) is saying evolution does not need to be testable to be a science and for scientific work to be undertaken ... Ok ... that is fine, but then please don't call evolution a "fact" ... Evolution science is simply the endeavour to use science and scientific experiments to work out how life became diverse within the proviso that all experimental conclusions stem and are governed by the accepted idea of change through the process of procreation.
People like Harun Yahya have shown that the same biological studies can render starkly different conclusions ... we study biology and other sciences to confirm our scriptures ... and our studies are no lesser than the other studies in depth and scientific accuracy.
Harun Yahya?!?! The Muslim creationist?!? Who in their right mind takes that guy seriously?
The problem with your studies is that you have already drawn a definitive conclusion, and so now you are looking for evidence to prove it! That's science to u !
For all your talk of "cogent, rational and reasonable arguments," that last line smacks of complete ignorance of how science works.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Regarding Harun Yahya ... take a look at what he says about evolution rather than using ways to discredit him that are not applicable to the subject ...
I think the Kaala jaadu explanation will work equally well on the likes of Harun Yahya.