Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Why are you purposely misquoting me. I was quoting you when you said God couldn't explain evolution to arabs. I was merely pointing out the foolishness of applying limits to an all powerful being. If you want to perform mental gymnastics to make islam and evolution compatible, your better served in taking out the whole God explained it to the arabs the only way they would understand routine as its illogical. If god wanted to explain evolution to arabs he would have, but the only thing the Koran says is that man was made from clay.
Also, I don't know what your trying to get across with the second paragraph. God works in mysterious ways. Apparently when Prophet Elisha was walking up a mountain he was ridiculed by a group of youths for being bald. God decided to send bears to attack and kill all 42 youths right there on the spot. Don't ask me why God considered this more important than say teaching humans about Germ theory.
Buddy it's mental gymnastics for me? Your the one that denies facts and science! You people are trying to sell this concept of Islam that is contradicted by ground reality. I have made peace with my faith and science. As far as I'm concerned and I'm there many who agree with me that Islam is not incompatible with evolution, and thus reality. You on the other hand, live in a magical world boxed in by a short sighted child like understanding of the universe. That's fine with me, I could care less, but as a society I hope Muslims choose science and logic over such outdated concepts.
Im glad you admit you don't know. Don't mock what u don't understand. I didn't create evolution, it has always been. The evidence speaks for itself. Now u can accept it, or continue to ignore it. Consider yourself lucky the Koran never said men could fly otherwise you would also refuse to believe in gravity I'm sure!
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
[note]I want to remind everyone that while everyone has right to his/her opinion and that we are really having a great discussion, please keep in mind that rules of decency always apply. Please be respectful and state your views without getting personal.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Your the one flying in the face established science, contradicting scientists from multiple disciplines, and I'm the one who doesn't understand? Remind me again what your credentials are please? Everyone is wrong apparently except for u?!? Over 100 years of verifiable evidence to support evolution, with every possible means to undermine it by creationist having failed, here you are presenting the same old tired tactics of a generation of creationists before you and presenting it as nuance!
...
Peace Med911
There are plenty of honest scientists who do not called evolution an established science .... Don't make it something that I have conjured up please ... I am conflicting with the dominant wave of secular scientists ... Yes I admit that much, but it is neither established nor is it only me who offers the voice of dissent ... You only have to look at plenty of voices out there doing the same ... But they don't get air time for their opinions they get shut down ... People have tried to voice other opinions but they do not get allowed to do so ... Evolution offers the secularists the agent that unsticks the bond between state and religion ... And all the powers at the moment see to it that evolution is sold true and proper.
As I stated before the fossil record doesn't show much ... Genetics doesn't show much ... We can just as easily conclude other things from the SAME bits of evidence ... The SAME bits of evidence can point to all life coming from the SAME CREATING Force and and the starting and stopping of creatures in the fossil record is supported by the idea that God brings things to life and terminates them and then replaces them with other living things ... This concept is more powerful ...as we can see this happening before us ... And cite examples ...
However this thread is not about evolution ... It is about how evolution will not compromise the religion ... And why it is ok to accept it and at the same time accept the Quran as merely metaphoric ...
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Buddy it's mental gymnastics for me? Your the one that denies facts and science! You people are trying to sell this concept of Islam that is contradicted by ground reality. I have made peace with my faith and science. As far as I'm concerned and I'm there many who agree with me that Islam is not incompatible with evolution, and thus reality. You on the other hand, live in a magical world boxed in by a short sighted child like understanding of the universe. That's fine with me, I could care less, but as a society I hope Muslims choose science and logic over such outdated concepts.
Im glad you admit you don't know. Don't mock what u don't understand. I didn't create evolution, it has always been. The evidence speaks for itself. Now u can accept it, or continue to ignore it. Consider yourself lucky the Koran never said men could fly otherwise you would also refuse to believe in gravity I'm sure!
That is fine just admit that you hold two beliefs to be true ...I give established Islamic ideas greater support than science even when the science is established, but evolution is not even established. Science finds a way of improving its concepts even those that are useful and considered established, but the core aspect for truth in my person is that when you are on it ... There is no need to change it ... You merely increase your understanding on it and build on the established foundation of it without compromising that foundation.
This the approach taken by the evolutionists on evolution.
In science, a “fact” typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term “fact” to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples. In that respect, the past and continuing occurrence of evolution is a scientific fact. Because the evidence supporting it is so strong, scientists no longer question whether biological evolution has occurred and is continuing to occur. Instead, they investigate the mechanisms of evolution, how rapidly evolution can take place, and related questions.
I doesn’t matter if the evidences are to your liking or not. They are widely accepted by the world’s science communities-academies and reputable educational institutions… Biological evolution has occurred in the geological history of this planet and considered a “fact” explained by the theory of evolution which explains the mechanism thorough which it has occurred..
Serious academic-scientific communities no longer question the “fact” of evolution due to overwhelming observations studying the geological history of this planet through complex modes like radiometric dating.. there are often criticism on ever changing theory of evolution about the mechanism in which the evolution has occurred.
It’s a scientific “fact” that all the life forms inhibiting this planet today will become extinct in the geological distant future of this planet.. explained by the theory of evolution through natural selection, genetical drift, observations from distant geological past etc etc..
Nobody in scientific circles questions these “scientific facts” any longer. The mechanism in in which these happen explained by the theories are usually the topics of debate and disagreement.
Mr. Psyah,
This statement that evolution is a “fact” is not coined-invented by me.
Following is the joint statement by 67 most reputed scientific academies of the world:
“We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines.”
and fact number 4 what they have endorsed is:
"4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin."
P.S
Mr. Psyah.. I am a responsible poster who knows his credentials and limitations unlike a science impostor like you.. I don’t invent statements like “evolution is a dogma” or “evolution is a belief system” like you have done.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
You may wish to agree with few idiots who call themselves as 'scientists' or 'evolutionist' that is your business, not mine.
I have no intention to make you stop believing in myths.
1) 68 world academies of Idiot scientist..
2) Nearly all the so called reputable world educational institutions like Harvard-Oxford etc full of idiots..
3) Nearly all the idiot nobel laureates in the world..
How dare they confront a scientist like you who says evolution is a myth.
Mr. Genius,
I can only recall in my imagination some inhabitants of mental asylums who believe Einstein was an idiot and they are bigger scientist..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
Peace Mr.Yazdi
I admit I have coined terms - it is because terms need to be coined when the behaviour is said to exist - It is purely for convenience. My credentials and limitations are not even being used yet … The whole claim of “evolution being a fact” falls as the starting block … i.e. at the linguistic level and logic level. You don’t need to be a scientist to analyse a claim for “fact” you merely need to be able to discern the claim against the given definition. And therein the given paragraph is a fallacy and you cannot see it.
Let’s deconstruct that statement above and then you can show me where I have gone wrong …
“Fact” as a term is defined by science but in that paragraph “fact” is also termed by scientists under a different definition …
Science “FACT” definition is:
Observable
Measurable
Predictable (in the same circumstances)
Scientists say a “fact” is:
“Explanation”
“Tested”
“Confirmed Many Times”
{There is a major issue here, but for the time being I’ll entertain the given}
The paragraph has not made it clear which definition of “fact” evolution falls under, but if I were to guess it would be the latter one, because they use the term “however” …
In reality the person who formulated the paragraph has not been very shrewed in drawing a distinction between two types of facts …
First there is the fact of the “existence” of something or some act … We say “it is a fact that this exists or this happens” simple linguistics tells us this is the “nominal noun” or the “nominal verb” …
There is another matter now … and that is in “formulating information” about that “thing” or “act” … i.e. what predicates it … that would be akin to the “explanation” … i.e. the second definition of “fact” … It is to say that "If I say “that man” is “older than 50 years” - is that true? They ask the man and he confirms this (supposing he is not telling a lie) … hence the statement “that man is older than 50” is a “fact” … This type of “fact” is not about the “existence” of something or “act” but about whether the attributed metadata or given adjective is appropriate or not …
Now the question is … Is “evolution” an “act” or an “explanation” to an “act” … such as “he runs quickly” … running is the fact of the first form, but to say it is being done quickly and verified as so is a fact in the second sense …
Evolution according to my horse sense should be a “fact” as per definition 1 … but it appears evolution is being given the label of an “explanation” … Really? Explanation to what? Ah to evolution !!!
So we have “Evolution happens through the mechanism described in neo-darwinian evolution” … perhaps … I’m trying to be fair …
Does this mean we have two different meanings for the term “evolution” ??? We probably do … perhaps it is evolution as per definition one and evolution as per definition two …
So is evolution definition one:
a) Observable? - Answer - NO - We cannot see anything undergoing the “act” of evolving - case being time-scales are too long to allow this …
b) Measurable? - Answer - NO - We cannot measure what we cannot observe
c) Predictable? - Answer - NO - We are unable to predict what will evolve next for example
Ok … so evolution might not be a “fact” according to definition one, but what about definition two?
Evolution is:
a) Explanation? - YES - it is indeed an explanation of some calibre
b) Test? - NO - it is not tested because in order to test it - you need to be able to measure the “fact” that it sets out to explain, and manipulate it, in order to measure the “fact” that it sets out to explain, you need to be able to observe it.
c) Confirmed many times? - May be - Here confirmation is of two kinds - confirmed tests or confirmed support … It is clear that there cannot be any confirmed tests, but there is ample confirmed support …
In fairness some indirect tests have been performed - indirect meaning that the whole explanation is not tested, but a part of the whole explanation may be tested.
In actual fact “evolution” sets out to define “why life is diverse” … it explains this using a sophisticated change mechanism that takes place across generations through the reproductive processes … The fossil record is also diverse, but nearly all of the creatures found to be “ancient” or “pre-historic” are non-existent today … Evolution attempts to explain both of these by claiming the change happens through the “reproductive process” …
{Now my contention}
In true logic and proof finding - we not only find what “agrees” with our claims, but we also find “what disagrees” with our claims … the basis for evolution’s argument is that life started and then proliferated … however, is there evidence to suggest that life has always been diverse? Are there more creatures living today than many millions of years ago? The explanation does not make it clear what assumptions are being made and it also does not make clear “what exactly it is setting out to explain” … As can be seen here it is “attempting to explain the reason behind diversity of life, on the assumption that life started as a single organism” … it needs to be verified that one creature can give birth to another species … according to that definition.
Now I hope after conversing at this level you have teh confidence to see that I am qualified enough to deal with the topic … because qualification is not a piece of paper … but a capability to inherently evaluate the subject matter …
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
1) 68 world academies of Idiot scientist..
2) Nearly all the so called reputable world educational institutions like Harvard-Oxford etc full of idiots..
3) Nearly all the idiot nobel laureates in the world..
How dare they confront a scientist like you who says evolution is a myth.
Mr. Genius,
I can only recall in my imagination some inhabitants of mental asylums who believe Einstein was an idiot and they are bigger scientist..
Peace yazdi sir !!!
Why do you appeal to these people - when they themselves have not offered proof for their support of evolution. Merely proving sanction is not evidence of "fact" - but they should provide their "reasons" for their support ... and it is not enough to say "We like the theory" ... which in essence most of them are doing. Likewise, how can you appeal to numbers to demonstrate a truth ... the "empreror's new clothes" is a story that came to vanquish that premise for decision-making ... You can appeal to the numbers of those people who you are convinced have not been compromised.
Knowledge can be dangerous ... it makes people proud of their own knowledge and then they grow often with arrogance and try to remove Divine or Miraculous aspects of their discoveries ... You will never hear a scientist say miracles are true ... all if not most of those institutes will claim miracles are false ... As a Muslim could you agree with them too?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
1) 68 world academies of Idiot scientist..
2) Nearly all the so called reputable world educational institutions like Harvard-Oxford etc full of idiots..
3) Nearly all the idiot nobel laureates in the world..
How dare they confront a scientist like you who says evolution is a myth.
Mr. Genius,
I can only recall in my imagination some inhabitants of mental asylums who believe Einstein was an idiot and they are bigger scientist..
Majority of them do not believe that Muhammad (SAW) is a prophet (maaz Allah). Do you believe they are right?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
Mr. Psyah,
It does not prove anything but you and your mullah are highly confused gentlemen who are just over confident about their capabilities without any reasons-credentials at all. I think you just have too much time at your disposal to post all the crap you have been posting.
In your post you have challenged the credentials of National Academies of Sciences (no less) to define the word “Scientific fact” and how it differs from common linguistic “fact”. Let me first tell you what is the “National Academy of Sciences”.. It’s a body formed in 1863 through a Congressional Charter to independently suggest the Government of United States of America on scientific affairs with over 300 living Nobel Laureates as it’s members..
“To meet the government’s urgent need for an independent adviser on scientific matters, President Lincoln signed a congressional charter forming the National Academy of Sciences in 1863 to “investigate, examine, experiment, and report upon any subject of science.” As science began to play an ever-increasing role in national priorities and public life, the National Academy of Sciences eventually expanded to include the National Research Council in 1916, the National Academy of Engineering in 1964, and the Institute of Medicine in 1970.”
“NAS, NAE, and IOM members are among the world’s most distinguished scientists, engineers, physicians, and researchers; more than 300 members are Nobel laureates. Members are elected in recognition of outstanding achievements, and membership is considered a high honor.”
Now a pair of geniuses (you and your mullah) with your credentials are in the right frame of mind to post:
“In reality the person who formulated the paragraph has not been very shrewed in drawing a distinction between two types of facts” … I don’t know from where you brought the two types of facts.. there is only one “scientific facts” which are defined by the National Academies for Sciences.. definition is clearly a coherent piece.. which include observed, measured and other forms of evidence which can be expected to occur in the same way under similar circumstances, and scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples.
You have picked up the word “however” but purposely ignored the word “also”.. I thought religious minded people should be honest but in this case it doesn’t look like that.. If you insert the word “also” as written in the definition it will be clear the definition has to been seen in totality and not in bits and pieces like you have done to write a whole paragraph of fiction..
Do you realize that hundreds of hours of work by some of the best scientific minds have gone in to formulating this definition of “scientific facts” and then this definition is endorsed by thousands of world’s best scientist with known credentials including hundreds of Nobel Laureates. How much time they must have spent on each and every word of this definition not to exaggerate even the slightest bit of reality in scientific terms.
What can I say.. you have really gone bonkers.. there is a life outside your Islamic Center and apart from the company of your mullah..
I don’t want to comment on your claim that you are more intelligent than the “National Academies of Sciences”… many individuals in mental asylums make similar claims..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Majority of them do not believe that Muhammad (SAW) is a prophet (maaz Allah). Do you believe they are right?
It's simply pathetic that the moderator of this forum is extending religious fatwas like this..
I refrain from posting in Religious forum to avoid fatwas like this but now in this forum also the religious fatwas have started. Why don't you merge it Religion Forum or change the name to "Religious Philosophies as prescribed by Literal Religionist"..
Science Academies from 68 countries including several Muslim countries like Pakistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Indonesia accept evolution as fact.. and use it as base of the educational curriculum for Science-Biological studies..
My position on Religious matters has been made very clear by me several times. I don't believe in literal interpretations of scriptures and I don't think accepting evolution will make me a Kafir.. and I don't want anyone to extend fatwas on me in this regard..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Majority of them do not believe that Muhammad (SAW) is a prophet (maaz Allah). Do you believe they are right?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they're scientists? And science is based on proof and religion is based on beliefs (one is testable & other is not)?
Btw, not to digress, but here is question for you. Since, according to most believers, religions are based on absolute truth & all that there is to be known, than what is the point of science? I mean, let says if you get sick, shouldn't prayers be enough to heal you instead of going to see a doctor?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Peace yazdi sir !!!
Why do you appeal to these people - when they themselves have not offered proof for their support of evolution. Merely proving sanction is not evidence of "fact" - but they should provide their "reasons" for their support ... and it is not enough to say "We like the theory" ... which in essence most of them are doing. Likewise, how can you appeal to numbers to demonstrate a truth ... the "empreror's new clothes" is a story that came to vanquish that premise for decision-making ... You can appeal to the numbers of those people who you are convinced have not been compromised.
Knowledge can be dangerous ... it makes people proud of their own knowledge and then they grow often with arrogance and try to remove Divine or Miraculous aspects of their discoveries ... You will never hear a scientist say miracles are true ... all if not most of those institutes will claim miracles are false ... As a Muslim could you agree with them too?
Why do I subscribe to the world's best Scientists, Nobel Laureates, and most reputed educational institutions to learn Sciences..???
I should take your advice and learn all these sciences from your mullah..???
As far as miracles are concerned I have made my point of view clear in that aspect. There are no miracles against the laws of nature.. the Deity operates through these laws of Nature.. It's the human deficient intelligence which does not understand all these laws of nature presently.. although with the advancement of sciences these laws of nature are becoming more and more clear to our humankind..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution … Or unkind dismissal?
When a person has nothing to add they resort to ridicule … You keep appealing to numbers and credentials … That is good, but there needs to be some substance to what you are saying … For example I said the paragraph makes mention of two differing ideas of the term “fact” … You only need to read this paragraph to see what I am saying is true.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they're scientists? And science is based on proof and religion is based on beliefs (one is testable & other is not)?
Btw, not to digress, but here is question for you. Since, according to most believers, religions are based on absolute truth & all that there is to be known, than what is the point of science? I mean, let says if you get sick, shouldn't prayers be enough to heal you instead of going to see a doctor?
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Why do I subscribe to the world's best Scientists, Nobel Laureates, and most reputed educational institutions to learn Sciences..???
I should take your advice and learn all these sciences from your mullah..???
As far as miracles are concerned I have made my point of view clear in that aspect. There are no miracles against the laws of nature.. the Deity operates through these laws of Nature.. It's the human deficient intelligence which does not understand all these laws of nature presently.. although with the advancement of sciences these laws of nature are becoming more and more clear to our humankind..
The controversy of evolution will remain with us ... And we will continue to get books being published explaining "why evolution is a fact" ... It would be such a waste of time for the scientists to be spending their time publishing such books ... Evolution serves no scientific end ... We can be as effective in science without believing in it. All I want them to admit to is that it is a dogma.
It appears that you have settled with accepting the argument from the dominant scientific community ... for a person whose limits of scientific knowledge prevent him from dealing with the topic then regardless of what I say ... You will still side with the scientists ... I has become clear to me that you do not understand science yourself, in which case your support for the scientists is justified. I don't blame you for it. It is me who has been wrong to bring this contention to you, rather I should be taking it directly to those scientists ...
What you are doing is the right thing ... You have taken the majority voice as true over the minority voice ... But I will not do that, because for the time being it does not make sense to me on a scientific level to be wholesale accepting the claims of evolution being true.
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
The controversy of evolution will remain with us ... And we will continue to get books being published explaining "why evolution is a fact" ... It would be such a waste of time for the scientists to be spending their time publishing such books ... Evolution serves no scientific end ... We can be as effective in science without believing in it. All I want them to admit to is that it is a dogma.
It appears that you have settled with accepting the argument from the dominant scientific community ... for a person whose limits of scientific knowledge prevent him from dealing with the topic then regardless of what I say ... You will still side with the scientists ... I has become clear to me that you do not understand science yourself, in which case your support for the scientists is justified. I don't blame you for it. It is me who has been wrong to bring this contention to you, rather I should be taking it directly to those scientists ...
What you are doing is the right thing ... You have taken the majority voice as true over the minority voice ... But I will not do that, because for the time being it does not make sense to me on a scientific level to be wholesale accepting the claims of evolution being true.
Although I don't claim to be all knowing Scientist like you.. At least I have debunked all the fiction you have written regarding the definition of NAS.. exposing the dishonesty of selectively choosing the words from the definition:
You have picked up the word "however" but purposely ignored the word "also".. I thought religious minded people should be honest but in this case it doesn't look like that.. If you insert the word "also" as written in the definition it will be clear the definition has to been seen in totality and not in bits and pieces like you have done to write a whole paragraph of fiction..
In the light of above mentioned explanation read again carefully the definition of Scientific facts by NAS:
In science, a "fact" typically refers to an observation, measurement, or other form of evidence that can be expected to occur the same way under similar circumstances. However, scientists also use the term "fact" to refer to a scientific explanation that has been tested and confirmed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing it or looking for additional examples..
I hope you can see the fallacy of your argument..
P.S. Don't be so depressed.. I am not ridiculing you.. I am ridiculing your absurd opinions and their origins..
Re: Apologetic Islamic take on Evolution ... Or unkind dismissal?
Evolution is not testable
Only testable things are not "Scientific facts"...
Evolution is a "Scientific fact"...
There is enough Scientific evidence studying the geological past, gene similarities of species, sequence of fossil records, observed micro evolution, observed genetical drift etc. etc. to convince the science communities from all over the globe to accept evolution as a "Scientific fact"..
All these evidences are not up to the liking of Mr. Psyah who would like to see a machine invented where he can transform a Precambrian in to rabbit in front of his eyes in a few seconds..
But this view point is not endorsed by the world's Scientist who consider other evidences to be sufficient to link Precambrian as immediate ancestors of rabbits..
It's just a matter of opinion.. what evidences are sufficient to declare something as a "Scientific fact"..
It's absolutely absurd to say there are no grounds to declare evolution as a scientific fact..
The difference between my view points and Mr. Psyah's view point is I accept that the evidence of evolution are sufficient. I admit that as I am not an expert in the field of natural sciences.. I rely on the judgement of the world's most reputed scientist in this regard. Mr. Psyah claims to be an expert and would like to challenge the whole world's scientific communities.. I wish him good luck in his adventures..