Apni Marzi Kee Shaadi

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
I wonder where’s DeluxItem now? Yeah there’s a huge divorce rate in the US, but look at this? That’s disgusting.
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Still smarting over the 52% quip... :D

Pakistani society is predominantly conservative, especially in rural areas. And rural Sindh. Just like you wouldn't jump off a cliff hoping laws of gravity would change inflight, or act funny in a US airport, eloping in a hyper-conservative soceity has its consequences. This couple's act was reckless, and irrational (although it's understandable that surging hormones and emotions can blind people's judgment); they shouldn't expect congratulatory cards, flowers and chocolates.

To me, such incidents indicate a society's state of flux. The mores are changing and new values are clashing with old traditions. We should expect to see more such incidents; socieities don't change overnight. I neither have sympathy nor disgust for the couple. They knew full well the rules of THEIR society, and the consequences. I, sitting in the comfy west, could'nt possibly factor in every variable of the situation.

To you madhanee, the brown noser, it's "disgusting" as you'd gladly shove your acquired values down others' throat whether it took dropping dasiy-cutters in the name of democracy to labeling civilian death collateral damage.

Nothing in Islamic literature suggests anything to the effect that a woman cannot marry a man of her choice as long as he is Muslim. The restrictions discussed above are purely cultural and sadly enough, contradict Islam. Usually, the uneducated masses tend to combine them into religious philosophy and pass these falsehoods down the generations which exist to this day in areas such as tribal Sindh, as seen in the above story.

:flower1:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Deluxitem.. ouch… so let’s say that you get married, what are the chances of you being in the 52%. Give me a round about. You talk with such confidence, I am impressed. And how it this world do you have the balls to say that their act was reckless. It is narrowminded bigots with these views that give our society the bad name that it is given. I hope you are not justifying honor killing here, which sounds like you are.
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I cited the reason why I called it reckless, read it again. If you are not such a "narrowminded bigot" yourself, why don't you extricate the couple out of the country.

No, I don't justify honor killings. But I wouldn't justify dropping daisy cutters on them either which is what a brown nosing jackass like you certainly would.

I agree, LuxuryItem. Very well-said :k:

I would like to kill that guy.He actually divorced her, now whats the girl to do?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
I would like to kill that guy.He actually divorced her, now whats the girl to do?
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So much for getting married. If he doesn't divorce her someone wants to kill him. If he does divorce her someone wants to kill him.

As for marrying with the quran, its a wierd tradition practiced by many in all interior parts of Pakistan. Also known as 'Haq Bakshna'. Some people have this notion that if they die without marrying their daughters off, they will be held accountable on the Day of Judgement and will be answerable to their daughters. So, they conveniently get their daughters to Baksh their Haq (give up their right) to question their father on the Day of Judgement since technically they did get married, even if its to the Quran.

Wierd, plenty.

Sadly the same happened in my dad's side of family till three generations ago. If they could not find a suitor for the girl from within the family (since marrying outside the family wasnt acceptable), they always had the last resort of marrying the girl to the Quran.

This is just one example of the plenty of messed up locally forged traditions that people follow religiously, that have absolutely nothing to do with islamic law.

Only the girl needs to marry some one else and if she gets divorced by the other person only then they can re-marry.

“(This) divorce is (permissible) twice: after that the parties should either hold together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. And it is not lawful for you (men) to take back any of your gifts (from) your wives which you have given them, except when both parties fear that they would not be able to keep the limits ordained be Allah….” (2:229).

“And if he (husband) has divorced her (the third time) then she is not lawful unto him thereafter except in case she had wedded another husband (and been divorced again). In that case there is no blame on either of them if they reunite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah.” (2:230).

Source

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Delux item, let’s put you in their shoes (imagine that you are married. Just imagine – it ain’t gonna happen, so no harm in imagining). Now let’s say some narrow-minded (someone from your tribe) bigot calls your act a reckless one, and issues decree to honorably kill you. Would you like that? Now also tell me, once you are married, what are the chances of your getting divorced? Give me round about figure, in percentages.

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Distorting events to elicit a sympathetic response is a cheap tactic -- strawman. The couple eloped, and even moderates in a conservative/tribal society would balk at that. But of course such things are irrelevant to two bit brown-nosers like you. Nice try!

You are either incorrectly inferring or deliberately insinuating that I support the honor killings. I don't. I already mentioned that in my last response to you.

In your arrogance, you brown-nosers pressume that your adopted values are suitable for everyone. Read what I wrote earlier in that regard. You are getting repetative and boring.

As regards stepping in people's shoes, why don't you put urself in the poor divorced kids' shoes -- since you are so sensitive about the issue, you probably aren't much further away from joining the dreaded 52% yourself :D -- and feel their pain. Instead of doing your bakwaas here, like I said before *extricate the poor couple from the miserable country! *

[QUOTE]
Madhanee genuflected and yelped for attention:
You can hardly compose an intelligible sentence, figuring out possible factors can wait until you finish high school.

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And with your grade school level writing skills, you are burning the literary scene?

[QUOTE]
Madhanee yelped again:
It is idiots like you who have kept our society in dark ages, by trying to evoke “cultural rationality” over every freakin act. This is a matter of two people getting married, and being screwed by morons like you (at a wider level) at an unprecedented scale. And you blame daisy cutters for your misery. Subhanallah.
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Nope, it's two bit brown-nosing jackasses like you, and your "daisy cutters for democracy" mantra chanting masters, who are further radicalizing and pushing the Pakistani society in the dark ages. With your holier-than-thou "democratic mandates", you should be the last person bitching and moaning about "cultural rationality"

Idiots like you expound your liberal ideals with utter disregard towards the chaos and instability it will wrought upon an exremely rural and bakcwards society; not to mention the religious backlash which is what's happening in Pakistan. That's a very high price to pay just to make you look good among americans.

The couples actions were reckless. In the large scheme of things Pakistan is an extremely poor country and on a verge of unprecdented radicalization (if pushed too hard and too fast towards liberal ideas ) and their love marriage is nothing but a luxury.

Your message is replete with parroted liberal ideas oblivous to the ground realties (in Pakistan). Since you haven't contributed any original ideas so far, this exchange is becoming pointless. Consider yourself ignored.

**Pathetic. Wasn't there a case like this
a while back involving a girl from a Peshawari tribe
named Raffat Afridi, who married that guy from Karachi.
Whatever happened to them after he was shot to death
by her family in the court. Never read about them again.

As for this case, this couple knew what they were
getting into, fully aware of their societal norms and
otherwise. The problem with pakistani society is the
lack of a vast majority to accept responsibility of
their decisions and the consequences which come
with them, whether it be the girl, the guy or the girl's
parents in this case. I think the same will happen
with this case as with any other in the past. It's
hot news right now, she's in the police custody.
Her family has already succeeded in ridding her
of the guy's support. When the news flashes
die down in a little while, the girl will astonishingly
disappear and no one will know whatever became
of her. Isn't that how it's been happening for decades.
The government of Pakistan should really put its
foot down in extending education and its
strict implementation of it specially when it comes
to these interior sindhi, punjabi, balochi and peshawari
tribal idiots. The law should be such as where either
they get education or they are deported. Obviously,
no other country in the world would put up with
such ignorant shmucks. Even if somehow they
were allowed to stay in that country, sooner
or later when their true selves come out,
they would be asked to leave.**

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by LuxuryItem: *

socieities don't change overnight. I neither have sympathy nor disgust for the couple. They knew full well the rules of THEIR society, and the consequences. I, sitting in the comfy west, could'nt possibly factor in every variable of the situation.

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Very good point and very well said.

Khwateen o Hazraat.

Itna naraaz honay ki kiya baat hai. It seems you guys wanna settle that girls' issue right here on Gupshup... thand karro yaar... koi chai shai piyo. Itna ghussa sehat ke liyay nuqsandeh hai.

Dua ka Talabgaar!
-F

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Amelie, do you know what it means?

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Madhanee, thank you so much for taking time out of your life to explain and clarify and teach. I feel so much more learned now that I have your definition for what he said...

Faisal,
Exactly....not that any amount of our discussions on this matter or many others really ever gets anything accomplished...

[QUOTE]
**Originally posted by my poodle Madhanee: **
If it is not your dogpoppie religious beliefs, then it is your culture.

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You have a problem with peoples' religious beliefs too? You are not resorting to nukes again to straighten them out, are you?

can we discuss this without getting personal or throwing insults please?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
I think even on the cost of nuking the entire Sindhi population, this girl deserves no hardship
[/QUOTE]

Here you are showing your "narrowminded bigotry" again.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by cHEeGUm: *

So much for getting married. If he doesn't divorce her someone wants to kill him. If he does divorce her someone wants to kill him.
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isn't she in the same condition so to speak?First of all - if they knew what would happen ,I dont understand why they went off and got married in the first place.Secondly if they're both in trouble- why did he divorce her? This has nothing to do with religion ,its all just culture.

Problem is that in pakistani culture parents are less bothered about whether they are doing right or wrong according to islam (like gettting married) and more concerned about what 'other people' will think.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
hmmm...i think different sects have different beliefs...some say the woman can just complete the period of her iddat and then remarry that person...
some say she has to marry someone else in the middle too...and a subset of these say she can marry the Quran and then get married back to that same person...
this is all stuff i have only heard tho, i dont know what the most commonly practiced thing is...
do u know what it is? do post..thanks..
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Actually the real expalantion for this is that once a man divorces a woman, he can take back the divorce within the period of iddat. If the period of her iddat has passed and he wants to re-marry the woman, the woman will have to marry another man, get a divorce and then marry him. There is no such rule for the man though.

As for marrying the Quran, I think that is the most propostrous tradition in the Sindhi culture! Even though Sindh was the first place to be introduced to Islam in the subcontinent, it has the most distorted view of Islam. How can you marry a girl to the Quran? It just doesnt make a tiny bit sense to me...i am sure it doesnt make sense to the girls who are being married to the Quran either, but for some reason they have been putting up with it for centuries.

As for the girl, her fate is clear. They are going to kill her. Not that I want that to happen to her, but thats how its been going on forever and noone has been able to do anythign about it. Unless the Pakistani police has been so changed that they now know how to do their duty and not be scared of the tribes, the girl might be saved....but we all know thats not true...Pakistnai police is at the service of the rich and in Sindh at the service of the Fuderal tribes. It is sad though that the guy divorced her, but then you might b right, about the tribe threatening his family. He must have thought that he cant sacrifice his whole family just for one girl. But he should have thought about that before.

Anyhow, keep us updated on this case. I hope this time something different and good happens.

if less than three times, divorce was given then husband can do the "RUJOO" but after three, only "SHARAIE HALALA" is the way... but if a woman marries someone else for the intention of halaalaa on a contract basis that the person will divorce her .. THAT is absolutely not correct and considered Haram in all four school of thoughts...

Quranic Wedding is absolutely wrong and NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM..

Wallah-o-Alam