anti muslim director killed

Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**No he was murdered. Tell me again about the *
"Religion of Peace"**

Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
**he fact that extreme violence is part and parcel of some segments of Islam is undeniable. This is condoned.
*

so do you want to know about the religion of peace or do you want to know about these "some segments" that you note later.

I personally find your earlier statement distasteful and irresponsible.

Having been on this site for so long and interacting with people here for this long should have informed you that people vary in their viewpoints significantly.

Question these segments all you want, its a valid point, it is introspection that ppl belonging to those groups need to do, and efforts need to be made by all the rest to try and minimize the impact of such groups.

However, when someone comes along and says something like you did in a sarcastic manner without stopping to think how it affects those who are not in these "segments", it is hurtful.

How messed up is this? People are constantly complaining that there is so much prejudice against Muslims in the west, that people think Islam is about violence instead of peace. Then this Van Gogh made a film that expressed those views. What did this Moroccan man do by killing him but suggest, to all those who are prejudiced against Islam, that they are RIGHT when they think Islam is about violence?

Of course, one Moroccan man does not represent Muslims entire. So let's focus on what's really disturbing here: the reactions in this topic that cheer the man for doing it or rejoice at the director being in hell!

Wow. You who reacted that way, you're doing a lot to win westerners over to your vision of Islam, aren't you? (<--sarcasm. I feel the need to state that explicitly, since the reactions in this topic make me wonder whether some people have the intelligence to perceive on their own that I am being sarcastic.)

I am very upset right now. :(

Another clarification. First, flag-burning is protected by the US gov't as an expression of free speech. So no, if you're in the US and burn a flag, you cannot be kicked out for it.

But I hope those of you who feel this murder was justified are not anywhere in the west, since your attitude is totalitarian -- agree with us, or we don't respect your right to live -- the sort of attitude that WOULD lead to some sort of inter-civilizational war.

Understanding is not achieved through violence. You want people to understand and respect Islam? Then you need to represent Islam in a way that speaks well of it, not in a way that confirms people's prejudices!

Fraudz,

You are barking up the wrong tree here dude, really. Have a go at the guys here who think that this director should rot in hell, that somehow blasphemy warrants a death by murder. More than a few guppy cheerleaders.

The distasteful part is killing people in the name of your religion. That you feel some blowback from this is really the least of my concerns. I have clearly said "segments", "factions", "extremists" over and over again, and you damn well know it.

But where did these people figure out that blasphemy is the reason for killing? It was their interpretation of Islam. It is not my job to throw 1.3 billion people in the air and have them neatly land in piles as to "good" muslims and "bad" muslims. If you feel tainted by the actions of your brothers, take it up with them not me.....

People wonder when they do not get visas, or they are put under observation by the authorities why this happens. Ask the Morroccan living in Holland. When we are able to read a man's soul and figure out whether he is murderous or peaceful, perhaps I will be able to distinguish better.

Until then complain about the intentional killing at the hands of a religious zealot. This is a hate crime, emphasis on the hate.

I take it up with them and those of their mindset here and in real life, as I take up issues with those who paint anyone with the same brush, whether its pakistanis, arabs, americans or ppl from lesotho, burkina faso and burundi.

I know I will feel blowback from non muslim idiots due to the actions of muslim idiots, thats understood.

But lets try to be a little bit more careful here, I dont like ppl referring to americans as amerikkans, and I dont like people stereotyping muslims because of the actions of a few.

I dont think that I need to tell educated people how to state things in a responsible manner. I dont expect resonable statements from reasonable people, and those cheering on the manner of this guy's death are the type of unreasonable people whom I cant waste time trying to discuss anything with. however those who I consider reasonable, when i see them making unreasonable, offensive or irresponsible comments, I think that there is a need to address that with them.

You can either note that your approach was bothersome to some reasonable people, assumign you think that I am a reasonable person, or you can just divert it to something else, your call.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Deewaanagi: *
How messed up is this? People are constantly complaining that there is so much prejudice against Muslims in the west, that people think Islam is about violence instead of peace. Then this Van Gogh made a film that expressed those views. What did this Moroccan man do by killing him but suggest, to all those who are prejudiced against Islam, that they are RIGHT when they think Islam is about violence?

Of course, one Moroccan man does not represent Muslims entire. So let's focus on what's really disturbing here: the reactions in this topic that cheer the man for doing it or rejoice at the director being in hell!

Wow. You who reacted that way, you're doing a lot to win westerners over to your vision of Islam, aren't you? (<--sarcasm. I feel the need to state that explicitly, since the reactions in this topic make me wonder whether some people have the intelligence to perceive on their own that I am being sarcastic.)

I am very upset right now. :(

*Another clarification. First, flag-burning is protected by the US gov't as an expression of free speech. So no, if you're in the US and burn a flag, you cannot be kicked out for it. *

But I hope those of you who feel this murder was justified are not anywhere in the west, since your attitude is totalitarian -- agree with us, or we don't respect your right to live -- the sort of attitude that WOULD lead to some sort of inter-civilizational war.

Understanding is not achieved through violence. You want people to understand and respect Islam? Then you need to represent Islam in a way that speaks well of it, not in a way that confirms people's prejudices!
[/QUOTE]

First, Do you think we will change your mind set just coz of integrating to myself into i system i never fit in?! I consider this an hypocrite!
You can whine over his death and his soul will find peace and GOD will definately have mercy with him.

Secondly about which US of A are you talkin about? I remember some Neo Nazi burning the flag in your US of A and then got jailed for doing so. (Maybe I was on drugs and they had the flag of Iraq with the head of Saddam postured).

NO one is encouraging here to murder or kill other maroons like him.

But non of us talked in his favour either. Now should we start crying in fake just to keep the WEST happy and display them: "Hell we are tolerant and broad minded and he was a good man so innocent so please grant him a grave in Jerusalem (I for myself wouldnt even let Arafat burry there and I have my reasons!).

Man, I have been born in Europe, I hardly pray, I have nothing to do with extremest Mullahs, I would even go and kill some of those pigs with my own hands, but when it comes to disrespect of my RELIGION, CULTURE, TRADITION, I will not wait til Jeshua will arrive and kill the BAD EVIL. I will act, with my words with my keyboard and then I DARN care about the WEST and its thinking!

Represent Islam to whom? Some of these westerners and non-muslims have already made up their minds about Islam. Does it look like that I give a flip about what these brainwashed Islam haters have to say about my religion? Their actions speak for themselves. They have every excuse to defend Israelis and American forces when they kill innocent Muslims in Palestine and Iraq and now these crybabies are whining about the death of that vermin. You need to spent more time here and read their posts. That Dutch pig that you are all feeling so sorry for, he got what he deserved. It will give good lesson to other pigs out there who think about disrespecting Islam and Prophet :saw: If these westerners get so offended by what I say then go to some freaking westerners’ board where there will be no one to offend them. This is a Pakistani board, so expect to see such offending posts from me and others. What they think that I am going to sit here and apologize for a murder of some Dutch pig and on the other side these westerners gloat at and justify the death of hundreds of thousands Muslims in Iraq and Palestine?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
Sufi persuasion, I wonder what Bulley Shahs and Rumis and Baba Farids would have stated about such a person.
Im pretty sure they have thought totally in your favour.

[/QUOTE]
I hope so to.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
First, Do you think we will change your mind set just coz of integrating to myself into i system i never fit in?! I consider this an hypocrite!
You can whine over his death and his soul will find peace and GOD will definately have mercy with him.
[/quote]

If you move to someone else's land, you have no choice but to integrate. It is your obligation to do so. Would you want Westerns to immigrate in large numbers to Muslim countries and open up bars, nightclubs or spread their culture?

[quote]
But non of us talked in his favour either. Now should we start crying in fake just to keep the WEST happy and display them: "Hell we are tolerant and broad minded and he was a good man so innocent so please grant him a grave in Jerusalem (I for myself wouldnt even let Arafat burry there and I have my reasons!).
[/quote]

No you should do so for your own sake and for the sake of your humanity. If you cannot see the difference between right and wrong, that is a reflection of your own inner self.

[quote]
Man, I have been born in Europe, I hardly pray, I have nothing to do with extremest Mullahs, I would even go and kill some of those pigs with my own hands, but when it comes to disrespect of my RELIGION, CULTURE, TRADITION, I will not wait til Jeshua will arrive and kill the BAD EVIL. I will act, with my words with my keyboard and then I DARN care about the WEST and its thinking!
[/QUOTE]

Then you should come within the fold of Islam that teachs love, tolerance, and peace for all of mankind and not the hatred, violence, and antognism that you seem to like.

Your entire argument is based upon a reactionary response to what you foresee as Western mistreatment of Muslims. Even though I was not aware that the Dutch were killing Muslims in Iraq or Palestine, to you that is irrelevant. It is a thinking of the lesser mind to not reflect on your own faith and what it teaches you about right and wrong, but to rather be influenced in your beliefs by the actions or inactions of others.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
As a muslim of sufi persuasion who has lived in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, I have to deal with such anti-humanist viewpoints all the time by those of orthodox as well as supposedly sufi persuasion of some sort.

The mazaar going, urs attending, pir faqir following people of interior sindh and punjab can hardly be considered followers of orthodox islam, and a simple look at stats would indicate that inhumane activities such as honour killings etc go on in there. I can tell you first hand that many of these people cannot be reasoned with in a logical manner.

so there are idiots of orthodox persuasion, idiots of sufi persuasion (or those who think they are of sufi persuasion), idiots of various schools of thought etc. some of these ppl you can reason with and some you can not rwason with, does not mean you dont try.
[/QUOTE]

Karo kari has nothing to do with sufism, but is a mixture of tribal culture that has been emboldened by orthodox Islam. Karo Kari is found most prominently among the Baloch tribes of Sindh and Punjab.

[QUOTE]
You need to spent more time here and read their posts.
[/QUOTE]

!! I've been a member for over a year! I just don't post much. I read what goes on here. I know who is who.

[QUOTE]
Represent Islam to whom? Some of these westerners and non-muslims have already made up their minds about Islam. Does it look like that I give a flip about what these brainwashed Islam haters have to say about my religion? Their actions speak for themselves.
[/QUOTE]
But this is exactly what I'm saying. People will look at this Moroccan and say, "Their actions speak for themselves." Unless you give them something else to hear, they will only hear the negative -- and say, "Yes, their actions speak for themselves."

[QUOTE]
If these westerners get so offended by what I say then go to some freaking westerners’ board where there will be no one to offend them. This is a Pakistani board, so expect to see such offending posts from me and others. What they think that I am going to sit here and apologize for a murder of some Dutch pig and on the other side these westerners gloat at and justify the death of hundreds of thousands Muslims in Iraq and Palestine?
[/quote]

This is a strange and confused line of thinking from someone who is so angry at being pre-judged. You're doing to non-Muslims what you accuse non-Muslims of doing to you. You are treating westerners as some whole, you are dismissing them all and basically valuing their lives less than those of Muslims because you have concluded that all westerners do the same. Attitudes like this only further the cycle of violence.

This is a bad argument, I guess, because your mind is made up, and so is mine. But I wanted to share my opinion, because this topic, the way it was going, made me sad. That's all.


One more thing -- I think the story you are recalling about someone being arrested for burning a flag refers to the following: back in aug 2003 a teen was arrested for arson after burning a flag, but the flag did not belong to him and it had been hanging on the side of a building when it was burnt, so it damaged the building --> so he destroyed somebody's property (the flag) and also damaged other property (the building). This is why he was arrested. It is within your rights of free speech to burn your own flag. There have been alot of court cases about it and it is now a protected right!

so it all comes down to what our masters the westerners will think about islam? god forbid what they would think about the fact that rasul :saw: ordered for the assasination of kaab bin al ashraf and abu raafi not for physical crimes but for crimes of the tongue atleast for kaab bin al ashraf because he used to sing poems inciting quraish to attack madina, but didnt take part in attack him self…

QUOTE FROM BUKHARI VOLUME 5, #369
"Narrated Jabir Abdullah: "Allah’s messenger said “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?” Thereupon Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s messenger! Would you like that I kill him?” The prophet said, “Yes”. Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Ka’b). The prophet said, “You may say it.”

Maslama went to Ka’b and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad) demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) [taxes] from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Ka’b said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” Ka’b said, “Yes, but you should mortgage something to me.” Maslama and his companion said, What do you want?" Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so and so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.”

Maslama and his companion promised Ka’b that Maslama would return to him. He came to Ka’b at night along with Ka’b’s foster brother, Abu Naila. Ka’b invited them to come into his fort and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Ka’b replied, None but Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Naila have come." His wife said, “I hear a voice as if blood is dropping from him.” Ka’b said, "They are none by my brother Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.

Maslama went with two men. So Maslama went in together with two men, and said to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strike him. I will let you smell his head.”

Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Maslama said, “I have never smelt a better scent than this.” Ka’b replied, “I have got the best Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said “yes.” Maslama smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said “Yes”. When Maslama got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions) “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the prophet and informed him."

Narrated Al-Bara: Allah’s Apostle sent Abdullah bin Atik and Abdullah bin Utba with a group of men to Abu Rafi (to kill him) … (Abdullah said) “I called, ‘O Abu Rafi!’ He replied ‘Who is it?’ I proceeded towards the voice and hit him. He cried loudly but my blow was futile. Then I came to him, pretending to help him, saying with a different tone of voice, ‘What is wrong with you, O Abu Rafi?’ He said ‘Are you not surprised? Woe on your mother! A man has come to me and hit me with a sword!’ So again I aimed at him and hit him, but the blow proved futile again, and on that Abu Rafi cried loudly and his wife got up. I came again and changed my voice as if I was a helper, and found Abu Rafi lying straight on his back, so I drove the sword into his belly and bent on it till I heard the sound of a bone break.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.5, pp. 253,254).

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadiqaan: *

Karo kari has nothing to do with sufism, but is a mixture of tribal culture that has been emboldened by orthodox Islam. Karo Kari is found most prominently among the Baloch tribes of Sindh and Punjab.
[/QUOTE]

karo kari has nothing to do with sufism as I am very well aware, however people who considewr themselves to be sufis in rural areas of sindh and punjab have engaged in karo kari. Just like it has no basis in sufi school of thought it has no basis in whatever you may consider orthodox school of thought. There are more honor killings in sindh and punjab, areas with heavy sufi influence than there are in UAE, Kuwait or even Saudi Arabia which could be considered more orthodox.

so what is it, in case of pir faqir following village idiots in pakistan, its the culture and not their sufi leanings that are responsible for their idiotic actions but for idiotic actions of some arab its not his tribal culture but his school of thought that is responsible.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Deewaanagi: *
You are treating westerners as some whole, you are dismissing them all and basically valuing their lives less than those of Muslims because you have concluded that all westerners do the same. Attitudes like this only further the cycle of violence.

[/QUOTE]

When I said westerners, I meant by westerners on this board. I thought I made this clear in my last post.

its really very sad
nobody has the right to murder and man he must also be a family man with kids its really sad if muslims have done it.
this attitute is not going to make any friends and it will only alienate the moderate muslims

I couldn't care less. I'm neither happy nor sad.

But one thing irritates me. If this guy was a member of the KKK and he was killed by a black man - most people on here would have said he got what he deserved. Buts seeing as a Muslim is involved the story is blown out of all proportion.
Its simple really - the guy attacked Islam and Muslims, ONE muslim guy got sufficiently offended to take matters into his own hands.

Looks like somebody went to hell today.

The fat ass hell goer use to call Mus-lims, "A-llah's pimps ".

Looks like the pimps sent this fat nazi to hell

You people who support this murder make me sick. This is your Islam?
Anyone who disagree's with you gets murdered!? Even your prophet showed mercy to those people who had insulted and disrespected him.
You should bow your heads in shame... Your a disgrace to yourselves and your own religion.
This murder only plays into the hands of the people who claim that Muslims are all fanatics... Im starting to wonder why I doubt them...

Looks like the Amsterdam red light district will be closed for a week and all th whores of holland will be will be coming to see their daddy.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pak Brave Heart: *
Looks like the Amsterdam right light district will be closed for a week
[/QUOTE]

So I guess your schedule is free this week...