the problem lies here
during early years people compile them without giving debat on them
after few centuries people start fighting on them because of their liking and disliking
then great people like imam bukhari , malik , shafi etc have again compiled them with debate on each hadees
the problem solved then
but now again we see , peoples have created the extracted form of sahih sitta
left all the debate, only quote the hadeeth mention there
and the result is that every thing is seems to again messed up
the solution to the problem is get the real sahih sitta and read it out from there , all doubt will be clear then
but we didn't grade but graded by Allah , by combining some in form of Quran ie wahih Matlo , were as left others ie wahih gher matlo to check , who follow Hazoor PBUH and who rejects see here
002.143YUSUFALI: Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
I don't think I following your point here. However if you mean to mention where in the Quran did Allah SWT mention about the Sacred house, here it is:
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**YUSUFALI:* "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks. PICKTHAL: Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful. SHAKIR: O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep up prayer; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful:
Again this terminology has developed later on and has no evident meaning in the time of the Prophet SAW or his companions.
And you would agree that the wording of ahadith is not revealed by Allah SWT as in the case of Quran. Hadith are not all revelation but historical recording of the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW i.e. way of the Prophet SAW. Not all ahadith are revelations as I have stated before. The primary reason for revelation is to provide you with knowledge that is little known or not known. How the prophet SAW lived in his time is not known to us in person and the ahadith are used to study that. There are some revelatory ahadith but not all.
I think your confused here. The Waqia of Taif is mentioned in the ahadith as a description of what happened. How is this a revelation?
Again re-read the ahadith. It is reporting about a revelation the Prophet SAW had but the hadith (meaning the recording of this event) is not itself a revelation. Do you understand my point now? Hadith are recordings other people did regarding the life of Muhammad SAW, Prophet SAW did not write the ahadith but people did and they took their source as Muhammad SAW. If I give a sermon after learning something from the Quran, will you regard my sermon as a revelation despite the fact that I conveyed the meaning of what was written in the Quran in my own words? You will not. The Quran is the revelation part, my sermon is just my own recording of it in my own words.
Long time no see Br. When I say religious scripture meaning like the Quran, something that was revealed verbatim to Prophet SAW. It is true that following the Sunnah through studying the ahadith is akin to understanding the Quran however hadith are historical accounts of the Sunnah of Prophet SAW but revealed scripture unless someone here can prove otherwise. The sunnah of the Prophet SAW demonstrates how to apply the Quran in our real lives. Do we know everything about the Prophet SAW, no. We know quite a bit through the ahadith but not all. A lot has also been rejected and lost. All we can do is BELIEVE that what was rejected did not contain some genuine things. In the hadith there are still a few things that are just ahead of our time and we cannot understand them. This is where our faith comes in. There are a few things about the Prophet SAW time in the hadith i.e. the hadith about the pen and inkpot being a famous example; that we should understand and analyze.
Walekum salam brother,
There in my home country. Well and I have been busy over the days. Well, with the bold part you hit the nail on the head, I have nothing more to say.
Well, completely agree with you it was not revealed as a religious scripture but i can say Hadith was revealed as a part of religion. Because important pillars of Islam, were revealed i stress my point as a part of religion. Eg. Salah and Hajj.
Thats how, i wanted to make my point clear, yes exactly brother we have review hadith again and meticulously.
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Can anyone give the statistics of there are how many total hadith declared as Sahih or Zaeef or Ghareeb etc etc.
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NO idea about this at all, well there is a book written by Mohammed Azami regarding Early literature regarding hadith thats during the first 200 years, even before compilation of the two Sahih.
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Who has narrated the most and who has narrated none however he was a close companion of Prophet. How many narrated by Hazrat Abu Bakar and Hazrat Umar? They were his most close companions.
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Even before the Sahihs were compiled, (all this i am writing it from my memory as the article i had is not with me presently i am sorry if i make mistakes) they were a series of Hadith were written for eg a Chapter on the Hadith narrated by the Sahaba for eg Ibn Umar was allotted one chapter, Ibn Abbas, Ibn abdullaah.
Later on it became as we have seen today. In the same time musnads were also written down the best is Musnad of Imam Ahmed. We have to remember the hadith compiled by Imam Malik and others have been organized over the years and they are not the s ame as documented by the earlier scholars.
In regards to Hadhrat Abu Bakr and Hadhrat Umar, they have only few hadith narrated by them as they were involved in Administration, Jihad if islam compared ot Abu Huraira who spent all his time in the Mosque next to the Prophet.
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The logic that same people who transmitted Quran transmitted Hadith is not truly applicable. Quran was written in Prophets time and properly compiled and finalized in Hazrat Abu Bakar's time. Sahih Bukhari was compiled long after that. I would Trust Mautta Imam Malik over Sahih Bukhari as Hazrat Malik's time was earlier still our fellows call Sahih Bukhari as the most authentic book after Quran. It is actually this title that has created problem
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Brother, the compilation is os Sahih Bukhari is not like we all think, i feel personally many of the individuals here think the Hadith came into light only in the 3rd centure of Islam.
Infact the compilataon of Hadith, started during the rule of Omar bin Abdul Aziz in the 99h, and then it was a hard fought challenge for the Muslims to protect Islam.
Well now let me continue, during 110h, this copy was found in the library in turkey around 120 hadith doucmented by Imam Hammam ibn Munabbe student of Abu huraira and surprising all his 120 hadith are found in Bukhari, Muslim and a complete chapter of this 120 hadith in Musnad Ahmad.
I repeat again during that 200 years a series of Musnads, Sahihs and Sunans were written down. As far as my understanding goes Sahih Bukhari claimed to be the most authentic book, wasnt acclaimed as the best during that time thats around 250h but much later over centuries.
This was again sifted by various scholars even before, claiming it to be the most authentic book. More then the compilation, unlike today those days when a hadith was narrated it was narrated with the chain of narration.
I personally feel we have give credit to the earlier scholars, how can we discredit them they loved Islam as we loved and much more then us. This is is just a jist of what I can remember.
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Any one dare to explain Waqiya Qartas narrated in Sahih Bukjari. If bukhari is so correct why Sunnies avoid discussing this statement.
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What is waqiya qartas, my knowledge is limited please do let me know, while you are fighting like a typical shia just joking.
014.037 *
**YUSUFALI:* "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks.
PICKTHAL: Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House, our Lord! that they may establish proper worship; so incline some hearts of men that they may yearn toward them, and provide Thou them with fruits in order that they may be thankful.
SHAKIR: O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! that they may keep up prayer; therefore make the hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits; haply they may be grateful:
you havn't got my point
tell me where Allah had ordered muslim to face to first Qibla for prayering
where as in the verse it is stated We appointed the Qibla ,
that is Allah had ordered the muslim to face towards the first Qibla
but it is no where written in Quran . If that would have been decided by Hazoor PBUH then Allah wouldn't have said we appointed , rather he would have said , you appointed the Qibla
hope so you understand my point
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Again this terminology has developed later on and has no evident meaning in the time of the Prophet SAW or his companions.
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no that was also in the time of Hazoor PBUH
what sahaba listen from Hazoor PBUH , they try to act like that
what sahaba see Hazoor PBUH doing , they try to do like that
so this terminology had developed in the time of Hazoor PBUH
everytime people listen and get knowledge from Hazoor PBUH and went to dawah to other areas for dawa . there are many hadees refering to these
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And you would agree that the wording of ahadith is not revealed by Allah SWT as in the case of Quran.
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there are also one type of ahadith out of almost 50 types ( types described by Ulma in order to understand the hadees easily and to prove them ) in which Hazoor PBUH even told the wording of Allah SWT and thoes are called as Qudsi hadees.
second why Allah have decided like this that is in the form of wakiats ( conversation between sahaba and Hazoor PBUH ) because the main purpose of hadees as far as my little knowledge is concern is to explain Islam in specific purposes. where as see Quran that is in General Purposes ( I might be totally wrong here , but this is what i get from learning Quran and Hadees )
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Hadith are not all revelation but historical recording of the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW i.e. way of the Prophet SAW.
Not all ahadith are revelations as I have stated before.
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Allah had not saved the ahadees in form of his own wording as Quran rather then saved in the form of wordings of Hazoor PBUH, so that ayat of Quran where it is said follow Allah and follow Rasool , should always remain true otherwise it would remained only follow Allah and the part follow Rasool would have been gone wrong and that mean that Quran would have gone wrong
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The primary reason for revelation is to provide you with knowledge that is little known or not known. How the prophet SAW lived in his time is not known to us in person and the ahadith are used to study that. There are some revelatory ahadith but not all.
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the reason why you and many others are confused today because of not present of debate in the new extracted versions of hadees books
these are all classified
do you know why ulmma stress more on only one type out of 50 types of hadees although all 50 types of hadees are correct
second why you can't find out in new extracted book of hadees that is this hadees is sahih, ghareeb, zaeef etc because debate by great muslim scholars have been removed these days
come back why only one type is more stressed because there is the wordings of Hazoor PBUH own words and Allah have ordered us in Quran that what Hazoor PBUH give , take it and what he says stops it , stop it so ulmmah have more stressed on these ahadees.
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I think your confused here. The Waqia of Taif is mentioned in the ahadith as a description of what happened. How is this a revelation?
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talking with Jibraeel ie getting the message of Allah SWT is a revelation
and in this wakia you can see the conversation bwt Hazoor PBUH and Jabraeel but that have not mention in Quran clearly describing that Jabraeel usually comes to Hazoor PBUH with messages/revelations of Allah other then Quran as well
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Again re-read the ahadith. It is reporting about a revelation the Prophet SAW had but the hadith (meaning the recording of this event) is not itself a revelation.Do you understand my point now?
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i think i have mentioned it above ( about wording of Allah and Rasool )in this post but still if you can't understand do let me know
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Hadith are recordings other people did regarding the life of Muhammad SAW, Prophet SAW did not write the ahadith but people did and they took their source as Muhammad SAW.
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Sahaba and Ulmmah had saved the recording of people along with words of Hazoor PBUH only for the reason of safety , sanad , proof
second Muhammad SAW neither write the Quran nor the Hadees himself but gave premission to sahaba to write they write and then read in front of him for any mistake , if there would have been he PBUH had removed that
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If I give a sermon after learning something from the Quran, will you regard my sermon as a revelation despite the fact that I conveyed the meaning of what was written in the Quran in my own words? You will not. The Quran is the revelation part, my sermon is just my own recording of it in my own words.
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there is difference between our wording and wordings of Hazoor PBUH
the thing which is confusing you is the sanad , proof. try to study why proof is always given with the hadees, this will help you inshallah
SOA i am not a shia but a sunni (in papers, however a muslim by belief) and like to play devil's advocate a lot.
Qartas is an event from Sahih bukhari which i will post after getting the correct references however it is the principle argument used by shias against sunnies. They quote it right from Bukhari and prove their point.
Usman, The books you have mentioned, where are they? I have not seen their copy anywhere. I think they no more exist so how can they be given as authority. i may tell you that i quoted from this book but cannot produce that book because it does not exist. These are all fabrications produced by ulemas of those times to justify their point in establishment of hadith as a parallel system of jurisprudence to bring every act of a human being under the folds of fiqh and to create a new discipline in Islam, Hadith Collection.
All the sunnahs were known to people, how to do wuddu and they always reported that we saw prophet doing this way so we do this way. But you know how bukhari collected Ahadith. He comes to know that falaan bin falaan has a hadith, so he would go to him and ask him for it. the person will narrate it with the chain and then it will be jedged by bukhari and either included or excluded. Now It is true that Malik's Mautaa is included in Bukhari but not all bukhari is present in Mautaa. Mautaa was originally a book of recordings of sunnah as prophet was seen or heard by his fellows. If prophet ordered any women not to trim her eye brows it is understood as sunnah but if someone recollects that i remember a women came to prophet and asked her about trimming eyebrows and prophet replied that such women will go to hell. I mean where initially he forbade from this act. If this is such a grave sin he would have ordered it in some sermon or a group of people.
That is why i believe that criterias to exculde ahadith are lenient because every one wanted to quote more and more and bring every act we do in the world under the purview of fiqh, the way we breath, the way we walk. however Islam is an easy religion and concerned about few baic orders and few basic denials and rest all are non issues, you do or not do your choice. They have no effect on your afterlife. Our ulemas have made Islam into a military drill, every step accounted for.
You know our Hadith books are like 66 books of bible. None of them is the Injeel described by Quran but recordings of the life of Jesus Christ by his disciples. Every disciple takes a different understanding and people start fighting with quoting verses from bible and hair split the words. so Quran was revealed with guarentee. You may hair split Quran but for Ahadith you have to see practice of prophet as reported by multiple people not one single person describing something which has not been seen by others.
You know actually I still don't. You asked where in the Quran does it mention to face teh Qibla and then you've quoted the verse itself. Maybe if you explain it in clearer English I will understand.
I was refering to the Matloo and Gher Matloo.
Correct. This is why I stated that all hadith are not revelatory in nature. Some are historical recording of events.
Agree with you 100% here. Hadith Qudsi are pure revelation.
Agree with this as well however this does not run contrary to my point though.
Agreed. As a matter of fact if you compare there is a wealth of knowledge in the ahadith, probably 100 times more in ahadith than what you will find in the Quran. In fact this reinforces the point that the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW is the Quran. If you never read the Quran but have read a lot of ahadith then you probably already know 90% of what is in the Quran and more. This gives more leverage to my argument that we need to re-evaluate hadith content and root out any possible anomalies left in there. It is but a few ahadith which are sources of major contention and Ulema put forth all kinds of ridiculous explanations to justify them. There may be a very minute percentage of such ahadith but it is all ones needs to create divisions.
Oh I am not confused at all. I am just pondering about certain things. I question and look for a convincing answer. And don't you think that is the fault of muslim scholars. Ahadith books are widely published now without the proper tools of understanding accompanying it i.e. classification of hadith. Such carelessness is not exhibited when publishing Quran, why in the hadith? Then we question why muslims are so misguided. I think there is a great need to get Fath Al Bari in English. Riyad us Saliheen is the only new compilation of ahadith available with a commentary.
I disagree here. Please quote the hadith.
I perfectly understand however history is told in the words of the transcriber not whose history is being written. This is my point of contention. Ahadith coming though different chains of narration reinforce the occurrence of an event but also vary in wordings sometimes, which is against the nature of something being revelatory. The knowledge contained may be correct but the wordings are not guaranteed to be those of Prophet SAW unlike the Quran where even the words are guaranteed. As far as knowledge is concerned that is contained in the ahadith I put it at par with the Quran. However ahadith being susceptible to corruption is possible and that is not possible for the Quran.
Probably what we have of the hadith collections now may not be susceptible to corruption since it is well preserved and widespread however if any corruption was to creep into it, it has already happened before these great collections were even compiled.
Usman, The books you have mentioned, where are they? I have not seen their copy anywhere. I think they no more exist so how can they be given as authority.
they are no more exist today but you can see them in many hadees that they existed that time
in this ayat Allah have mentioned the changing of the Qibla to which we face while praying ie from our first Qibla , bait ul muqadas to Khana kaba
and Allah is describing that before this Allah had made that Qibla and now changing to new one only to verify muslims
the words of ayat that **we have **refer that it was Allah's decision and revelation to face towards first Qibla and Hazoor PBUH havn't made that on his own. if that would have been the Hazoor PBUH decision then Allah wouldn't have said that
now to check that is there any other revelations to Hazoor PBUH other then Quran , we have to check that order to muslim to face towards first Qibla during nimaz is in Quran or not. but that is not present
only only telling about changing then where is that revelation to face towards the first qibla
this surely says that there are other revelations to Hazoor PBUH other then the Quran
i hope you understand now
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I was refering to the Matloo and Gher Matloo.
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that was present that time, its the reason why Hazoor PBUH had stopped some sahaba to stop writting ahadees because they were getting difficulties in distinguishing them, and later when Sahaba got enough knowledge they were given permission
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Correct. This is why I stated that all hadith are not revelatory in nature. Some are historical recording of events.
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the difference is in the purpose where Allah wants to give a general purpose order , he made it general purpose
and when he want to make it specific purpose then it is recorded in the form of historical recording ie in the form of conversation between sahaba and Hazoor PBUH
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This gives more leverage to my argument that we need to re-evaluate hadith content and root out any possible anomalies left in there. It is but a few ahadith which are sources of major contention and Ulema put forth all kinds of ridiculous explanations to justify them. There may be a very minute percentage of such ahadith but it is all ones needs to create divisions.
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we only need to revive the original books of Hadees ie with debate on each hadees then inshallah all confusion that have been created will be removed inshallah
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Oh I am not confused at all. I am just pondering about certain things. I question and look for a convincing answer. And don't you think that is the fault of muslim scholars. Ahadith books are widely published now without the proper tools of understanding accompanying it i.e. classification of hadith. Such carelessness is not exhibited when publishing Quran, why in the hadith? Then we question why muslims are so misguided. I think there is a great need to get Fath Al Bari in English. Riyad us Saliheen is the only new compilation of ahadith available with a commentary.
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Allah have saved the Quran and Hadees both
see even today we don't have tafaseer of thoes days as well , same way what is happening that we have Ahadees but debate of sahaba and ulmmah of thoes time are either almost vanished or getting vanished
see in Quran that is general purpose so when tafaseer had lost , it doesn't cause such problem but where as in Hadees that is for specific purposes as the debates are getting vanished that is causing problem in the minds of some people
yes ofcourse muslims are at fault here, and need of time is that we should publish the origninal books
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I perfectly understand however history is told in the words of the transcriber not whose history is being written. This is my point of contention. Ahadith coming though different chains of narration reinforce the occurrence of an event but also vary in wordings sometimes, which is against the nature of something being revelatory. The knowledge contained may be correct but the wordings are not guaranteed to be those of Prophet SAW unlike the Quran where even the words are guaranteed. As far as knowledge is concerned that is contained in the ahadith I put it at par with the Quran. However ahadith being susceptible to corruption is possible and that is not possible for the Quran.
Probably what we have of the hadith collections now may not be susceptible to corruption since it is well preserved and widespread however if any corruption was to creep into it, it has already happened before these great collections were even compiled.
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words of Hazoor PBUH are the revelation/guidence from Allah to Hazoor PBUH and to us muslim. what the part of description of Sahaba is the sanad , proof
is not revelation but have been kept with Ahadees by Allah , because without them, Ahadees just became useless , i am always agree with you on this
I am not be able to come online on next few days so before leaving
lets just summaries on what we agree together
Hadees come through revelation , still you say for some you not agree but for most yes
sanad and debates are human work but necessary to understand and check validity of hadees, without them the hadees seems baseless
3 Quran is for General Purposes and Hadees are for specific purposes
Quran is in direct wording of Allah and Hadees are in wording of Rasool Allah PBUH to keep the Quranic verses for example , follow Allah and follow Rasool should remain true
In most of the extracted versions of Hadees books present today , do not contain the classification and debates
Original books with debates should be revived
if i am forgetting some thing on which we agree add to the list
after comming back , we will talk further
Hadees come through revelation , still you say for some you not agree but for most yes
sanad and debates are human work but necessary to understand and check validity of hadees, without them the hadees seems baseless
3 Quran is for General Purposes and Hadees are for specific purposes
Quran is in direct wording of Allah and Hadees are in wording of Rasool Allah PBUH to keep the Quranic verses for example , follow Allah and follow Rasool should remain true
In most of the extracted versions of Hadees books present today , do not contain the classification and debates
Original books with debates should be revived
if i am forgetting some thing on which we agree add to the list
after comming back , we will talk further
Sorry I've been busy as well.
1 - Agreed. There are numerous ahadith, which discuss the historical accounts of happenings in the Prophet SAW time without giving some injunction or commandment.
2 - Agreed.
3 - Disagreed. Both have generalities and specifications.
4 - Agreed on Quran part. Disagreed on Hadith part. Some ahadith may be verbatim what the Prophet SAW said however not all. Some may carry the same meaning but not the verbatim verbiage.
5 - Agreed.
6 - Absolutely.
Ahadees are classified by Ulmmahs and imams and ahadees where direct wording of Hazoor PBUH have higer category then one which are only seen
again the same problem
Ulmmahs and imams work are vanishing today and classification are getting distroyed
but the what we agree on what Hazoor PBUH says and do were only on the command of Allah swt
I have never heard that the classfication takes into account the closeness or actuality of the verbiage being verbatim to that of what Prophet SAW said. Please elaborate and provide examples of this. Please list the most important criteria for ascertaining a narration as Sahih.
full answer i will give you after few days , due to the burdon of load on me these days
for the time being
the most important criteria for sahih is ahadees is the one of full chain
hadees can have more then one category at the same time
for the time being i am forgetting the name of classification where direct wording of Hazoor PBUH are recorded , and by Ulmmah we must have to follow ahadees where direct wording of Hazoor PBUH are mentioned
inshallah i will answer you completely after few days
inshallah i will answer you completely after few days
yup, i think this sounds reasonable. still the order must be direct and reported by multiple sources. A single attribution for something as serious as Halaal and Haraam should not be accepted though it may have passed all the criterias of Sahih Hadith as our prophet was ameen and he would never declare some thing Halaal or Haraam in private to one person but would have done so in a gathering and that too explicitly nor implicitly.