No buddy, everything is not back to normal. The Pashtuns have always controled Afghanistan, even under Zahir Shah, many minorites wanted independance. The same Uzbek friend I was telling you about said that during the Russian occupation, Uzbeks supported a local commander who wanted to become independant of Afghanistan. This guy was later killed though. Point is, that Pasthuns are far more possesive of Afghanistan then Punjabis are of Pakistan. How do you know that Pashtuns will treat minorities any better then the Punjabis do when history has shown otherwise?
By the way, many of you Pashthuns are now upset because the Taliban is gone. So you blamne Pakistan for creating the Taliban, then you also blame them for helping destroy them.. Make up you MIND!
Here is the bottom line: In Afghanistan everyone is Afghan, all Afghans are brothers, there might be some unjustice but it can be forgotton because they are brothers. Pakistan is mad up two different ethnic groups: Afghans( Baluch and Pashtuns) and Indians(Sindi, Punjabis), it is bad marriage.
Firstly i would like to say what LOGO said is brilliant and he gave a good explanation of everything.
Now migration to a foreign country has nothing to do with the issue we are talking about. did anybody tell you america should join Pakistan? so how is that the same as saying NWFP should join afghanistan? i dont know why you confuse things. NWFP is full of pashtuns (being majority), it is their land…it is not a foreign land. if Pashtuns decide to join Afghanistan, it wont be that they migrate all to afghanistan, but the land like NWFP along with it. Leaving a place, doesnt mean people have the right to grab your land. you telling me when you left Pakistan, a person in Pakistan takes half of your land, and grabs it…you say ok i am happy i am in america i dont care?
Pashtuns were not asked to join Afghanistan or Pakistan, they were asked to join India or Pakistan!!! The durrand line wasnt signed by pashtun people being asked, so its all illegal!
Pakistan has done good to Pashtuns? they gained a lot from the afghan war, by stealing what was destined for the poor country Afghanistan, they stole their weapons, the generals gained billions of dollars, they gained a lot from the misery of others…yet they will always say oh well we gave refuge to Afghans?? Afghans around 1-2 million died fighting russians (may Allah grant them paradise), and this meant russia was not on the borders of Pakistan. Pakistan should be grateful for what Afghans did…and who were the main supporters against the russians??? it ended up being NWFP once again, pashtun areas (not to be against other non-pashtuns, may Allah grant them reward for their efforts in anything good they did)…and yes no doubt normal Pakistanis a lot of them have done good, treated people well, etc…but on the other hand you cannot deny the bad, such as exploiting people, not helping for the sake of Allah but ‘for personal interest’…a true friend is not one who cares about himself (selfishness), but does good to you for sake of Allah. We read what the intention of Pakistan was during soviet era, and most it was for strategic interests, that russia dont come to Pakistan, they didnt care if afghans were butchered, they wanted a foothold in Afghanistan, once again not caring about afghans, but ONLY themselves…so dont tell me Pakistan was so kind they loved Afghans, and did everything for them. we saw their true colours after 9/11.
Pakistan never made taliban, and Pakistan never destroyed taliban..it destroyed itself!!! Pakistan is dreaming if it could make a movement, they were so scared when america came to them, yet if taliban were made by Pakistan they would have also been scared like their ‘creator’…but no they were not..
Also study the taliban movement, and you will see that really it wasnt made up of all pashtuns, there was many ethnic minorities involved with them.
historical factors play a role in that..Afghanistan was the place of origin of all pashtuns..secondly Afghan and Afghanistan are older concepts than Pakistan. Irrespective of how many times it’s been written off as a failed state..their is a ery definite sense of an Afghan nation despite the ethnic differences.
Punjabs association with Pakistan I would argue is quite strong..as the province defines what is Pakistans establishment..
Here is the bottom line as far as im concerned…
In Pakistan everyone is Pakistani, all Pakistanis are brothers, there might be some unjustice but it can be forgotton because they are brothers. Afghanistan n is mad up many different ethnic groups: Uzbeks, Tajiks, Pashtun, Hazara, farsi speakers, those of Iranian descent etc..
You honestly think that Afghanistan is any better then Pakistan? Pashtuns are just as dominant in Afghanistan as Punjabis are in Pakistan.. You think that while Pashthuns will never be able to live with Punjabis, the minorities of Afghanistan will accpet you? What the heck makes you so special.
And by the way, Punjabis arent just Indian, many Punjabis have Pashthun ancestory as well as Arab and Iranian. Same with Sindhis.
Before you start going on about the purity of you race, you should know that we in Pakistan are a mixed people.
Historical or not, the point is still valid that Pashtuns are far more possesive of Afghanistan then we Punjabis are of Pakistan.
Punjabis are not possesive, we find ourselves in the dominant role in Pakistan by chance. Our population is huge compared to the minorities. This is not the same as Pashthuns claiming that Afghanistan is theirs by right.
You will be hard pressed to find a Punjabi who will say that Pakistan belong to Punjab the same Pasthuns do of Afghanistan.
MandiroN meiN ghantiya bhajaaney waaley what’s your problem with them being religious? Maybe to you Islam is oppressive but not to them that’s why they elected their goverments, Islam is as alien to some Punjabis as it is to Sikhs, and I don’t see much of a difference between Hinduism and the Islam practiced on the eastern side of our country… Islam se Musalman hain aur Musalmano se Pakistan, what was the point in Pakistan if you’re so opposed to the implementation of Islam? India would have suited your mentality just fine, it’s truly secular and democratic and look at our country a joke, mazaak bana ke rakh diya hai hamein poori duniya ke saamney, tab gaand mein kiya khujli ho rahi thi jo Pakistan banaaney aa gaey the?? Make your minds up!! What’s the point in being proud of an artficially constructed country which has no reason for existence?
I admit NWFP and FATA areas have had problems but Punjab and Sindh are not havens neither, just go to any Pind or Goth and see the luxury their inhabitants are living in and how much justice, law and order there is under the Wadera and Chaudary people over there.
What is your problem if Pukhtoons want to live their lives by honour? Life is meaningless if you’re the pussy laid back type who lets everyone walk all over them. It’s the tough guy image what demands respect for nations, maybe that’s the reason the Brits treated Pukhtoons like honourable enemies and Punjabis like slaves. Pukhtoons are proud and confident about their religion and culture and don’t see the need to change with the wind unlike certain ethnic groups who are hollow and have no identity as such and will lap up anything thrown at them, no Tehzeeb or Saqaafat to talk of except gay superficial things like dancing into a Bhangra frenzy at the beat of a drum and they call it culture!?!
Living by their ways and being tough doesn’t mean they’re not friendly, I find they are much more brotherly and warm compared to Punjabis and Mohajirs who I’ve found to be very business minded greedy and selfish.. If you have problems with Pukhtoons tell them to their face instead of moaning about it on here, I often fall out with the Afghanistani ones and I let my feelings be known, what’s the point in being two faced?
Punjabis are not possesive, we find ourselves in the dominant role in Pakistan by chance. Our QUOTE]
again.you can’t compare an association of 3 hundred odd years with one of 60+..Punjabs domination of Pakistan was not on the basis of population (otherwise Pakistan would have been dominated by Bengalis) not on the basis of wealth (otherwise Urdu speakers would have dominated)..so tell me what is the basis for so much grievances?
queerio: the area was an extension of the Afghan Kingdom
A Pakistani Punjabi Jatt is ethnically no different from an Indian Punjabi Jatt, just as a Pakistani Punjabi Rajput is no different from an Indian Punjabi Rajput, the only difference is religion. No Punjabi is Arab, that’s just to give themselves ego boosts, some Arab preacher converts them to Islam and they start claiming to be his descendents. Even if some cases of foreign descent are genuine they are irrelevant because the number of foreign genes in them is insignificant compared to the local ones because of intermarriages over the centuries with the locals.
Not all people from Punjab are Punjabi and not all follow Indian culture, just language.
I admit I have a personal problem with organized religion. Thats my problem with all of Pakistan not just NWFP, because they try to be TOOOO religous. I want a secualr country pure and simple.
But the NWFP is the worst part of Pakistan as far as religion is concerned. The Pasthuns go over board in their religous zeal. Its just to MUCH Islam even by Pakistani standards. When you have an entire region bordering on becoming another Taliban state, then obviously people will have a problem.
And I dont know what you mean by Punjabis arent Islamic enough. Punjabis are more Islamic then they should be. I think this is you Pashtun bias talking here, I mean, by Pashtun standards no one is Islamic unless they turn themeslves into Taliban style Mullahs. But I think this is a cultural factor at play. Might have something to do with the role of Tribal society in Afghanistan and NWFP etc.
Pakistan may be artificial but heck it what we got. We need an identity but doesnt need to be an Islamic indentity. We can be many things besides Islamic without being Indian.
There are Parts of Sindh and Punjab and Balochistan that are bad, but these areas are still under the control of the Govt. These areas are not used as havens by foreign terrorists, or by drug smugglers, or car theives, or the many other unsavoury things that go on in FATA under everyones nose with impunity. Why is it that it is the FATA areas that have gotten so much attention from everyone in the war on terror while the rest of Pakistan hasnt? Its because these are the places where all the terrorists go to hide. I know where Osamam and Mulla Omar are.. The are in FATA!
And honor is great, but you dont have to murder all your enemies or precieved enemies to gain honor. How many people did your prophet spare when he returned to Mecca, even though they were all his enemies, was he not honorable? Pashtuns have hisotry of shooting first and asking questions second, Thats why they have a bad rep. Its not about being a Pussy, its about choosing other options besides murder. Read the Biography of Pushtoons like Ghafar Khan who said that Pashtuns were destroying themselvs by their infighting, trying to defend their honor. Was he not honorable when he choose NOT to fight the British?
As for Bhangra, we have a culture. Im sorry if culture in Pashtun society is considered a sin. By the way, your culture, whatever is left of it, isnt exactly something everyone wants to be apart of either. Buskashi! Its just a dead goat for christ sake!
By the way, statements like that dont help you either, just makes you look worse. You just seems like a racist Pashtun bigot. Typical trait?
And Pashtuns may be friendly but that still doesnt mean they dont have a bad reputation. Its your own fault. I met Pashtuns who said we are superior beczuse we are white and you arent, what am I supposed to think? Fact of the matter is, you guys have a bad reputation and there is nothing you can do to change that.
By the way, I never needed to tell any Pahthun what I thought of them to their face because most that I know are rude butt holes who bad mouth Punjabis and Pakistan for no reason. You on the other hand:rolleyes:
And trust me, I would have no problem telling you what I think to your face, you may be Pasthun but dont think im afraid of you in any ways…
pakpatriot, you probably wouldnt know, but bhangra is nothing but a modified pashtun custom that sikhs brought to punjab from the panjsher valley. so much for your culture.
Yaar, your not making sense. Punjabi domionance is due to Population. Pure and simple. At most I will say that Punjanbis have dominanted the Army, which rules Pakistan. But none of this means that Punjabis want to posses Pakistan solely for themselves.. Thats simply nonsense.
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Who said anything about me being Pukhtoon? I’m partially of Pukhtoon descent, have a Pukhtoon surname, like their lifestyle and will be marrying a Pukhtoon but I don’t speak Pukhtu.
PP: Sorry to burst your bubble..if you take a look at the electoral history of the frontier..the MMA was never a major electoral force left wing secular parties in alliance with moderate mainstream ones was common place. Your dislike for the conservative nature of pashtuns is your own preference...however the fact is most of the key people behind the MMA are in fact Punjab and karachi based ..
Im not saying I dont like Pukhtoons, im just explaining why people in general see them in a negative light. And my problem with relgious people is not limited to Pashtoons bt all relgious people in general.
My fiance is also of Pashtun descent on her father side. I think her Grandmother was Pashtun.
Chalo, thanks for bursting the bubble. Still I see the NWFP as the most problematic because of their relgious conservatrism. I think it may even be holding them back from real economic and social progres.. But thats my oppinion.
The real litmus test for the Pakhtunistan will be when they vote these people out. If they do that I will appologize…
