Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
They havent realized this yet?!?!? LOL, they maybe Afghani but thats only by ethnicity maybe, but not nationality..
Why would any sane Pashtun ever want to join Afghnaistan anyways?
Irony is, if NWFP were to join Afghanistan, the same Pashtuns that left would return to work in Pakistan:)
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Why would a pashtun want to join Afghanistan and be part of it, because that is where they are from....
It is like saying why do the balochis all want to unite, or the kurdish want to be part of kurdistan, and so on...how could you talk about pashtuns uniting with pakistan, when you dont allow them to unite with their own brothers???
You say why would a brother want to join his brother? it is like one family....it doesnt matter if the brother is poor, un-educated, etc...blood relation cannot be discarded due to anything 'material'.
Principle is you unite with your family first, then your tribesmen, then your wider community...so thats the reason why any pashtun would want to join afghanistan! because british people divided pashtuns without every asking them, they are the masters in 'divide and rule' and unfortunately it continued.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
I definitely agree with Saifullah above...It is true in its enterity...Just like Tamils in Tamil Nadu wants to join their brotheren across the strait in Tamil Eelam...or the Kasmiris in vale of Kashmir want to join their brothers on Pakistani side of Kashmir...
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Yeah true enough I can see why Pashtuns would want to join Afghanistan and get rid of the Durand Line, though its too bad for Pakistan should it happen.
Fact is you can’t stop somebody from what they want to do and eventually you should let go
That said the whole plan has a few kinks, Pasthuns should realize that Hindko speaking people live in NWFP as well, and we would never join Afghanistan so that is something that would have to be resolved (though you could always split Hazara disctrict from NWFP).
Also I would guess there are more Pashtuns in Pakistani areas like Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad then there are in NWFP, that would kind of defeat the purpose of seperation. So that issue would also have to be resolved.
But that said if Pasthuns really want to join Afghanistan they should be allowed to.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Yes elahi....if they like too...
So What is the largest Pashtun city in the world???Karachi....with 1.5 million Pashtoons...
how many Pashtuns in Punjab...about 4-5 million...
how many in Baluchistan 3.5 million...
How many total pashtuns in NWFP = 14 million...
What all this adds upto = 1.5+4.5+3.5=9.5 Million(outside NWFP) & 14 Million in NWFP(Who by the way as Pakistanis as Punjabis/sindhis/Baluchis or Mohajirs....are)....
Total Pakistani Pashtuns = 25 Million Pashtuns....
Total Population of Afghanistan = 16 Million....
Pashtuns = 45% or roughly 8 million...
what's rest...Tajiks 30%...Uzbek,Turkmen,Hazara & Baluch rest....about 8-9 million in all
Now why would 25 million Strong prosperous Pakistani Pashtun population would want to leave their homeland & would want to join only 8 million Afghani Pashtuns under the presently governing Northern Alliance(Tajiks & Uzbeks)...
Pakistani Pashtuns gives the culture & identity to the pashtun society & are the voice of Pashtuns all over the world,including those in Afghanistan...Forget about old times...When Afghanistan used to speak for Pashtuns...It is now a part & parcel of Pakistani society...
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Total population of Afghanistan is 28 million, 75% of them are ethnic Pashtuns including those who speak Dari. About 25% of Pashtuns make up the Dari speaking class. Total Pashto speaking population of Afghanistan is 49 to 50% and that is where the international community gets the 50 to 49 % Pashtun population of Afghanistan.
Why would Pashtuns want to join Afghanistan if they had a chance? That is not even a question. After Afghanistan stands on it’s own feet and when the Pashtuns see how much they can cash in on Afghanistan as it is a nation that is of dire strategic importance to the international community especially the west, why wouldn’t they want to be part of Afghanistan? Once they realize Afghanistans potential like many Pakistani Pashtuns already have they wouldn’t look twice at what Pakistan has to offer. Who would want to feed on leftovers in Pakistan from the Punjabis and Mohajiroon when you can be the master of your own domain? In Pakistan you can’t even get a name for your province, yet Afghanistan basically means “THE LAND OF THE PASHTUN!” So why wouldn’t they want to be part of Afghanistan? The arrogant rational on this site is that Afghanistan is a stone age country, many forget that Afghanistan was far advance a nation before Pakistan even existed. Today it is far ahead of Iraq in reconstruction as real estate in Kabul will cost as much as buying a fancy home in California. Over 25 years of international experience has come back in the shape of Afghan returning refugees from all fields of science, medical, technological you name it. Today every one in Afghanistan has a cell phone including the donkey riders while the Pashtuns in the FATA can’t even afford a good radio. It is so bad for them that entire villages are being bombarded by Pakistani military and not a single photo gets out. Before there was Karachi or Lahore there was Kabul jaan, if a Pashtun wanted to taste advancement they didn’t go to Karachi or Lahore they went to Kabul jaan as it was called by the Pashtuns of NWFP.
As far as Pakistani Pashtuns don’t want to be a part of Afghanistan and are happy with Pakistan is concern, if that was the case Pakistan would have named NWFP Pakhtunistan a long time ago. It is the truth that Pakistan fears, Pashtun as a majority has no ethnic or cultural ties to Pakistan since Pakistan is more of an Asian nation while the heritage of the Pashtun is more central Asian. It is the history and culture of Pashtuns that has given every bit of Islamic identity there is in Pakistan. From the dress, to the names of Pakistani defense missiles. Yet why would Pashtun want to live as second class people with no history while they can be the elite of a glorious nation with a history of over 900 years of dominancy on region as Afghans? When they can be recognized as a major power of the past in light of Ghoris, Suris, Ghilji, Lodhis, Durranis etc. all these medals can go under their name as ethnic Afghans. What has Pakistan to offer them, Ranjit Singh? In fact Pakistani intellectuals dare lebal the very man Ahmed Shah Abdali a robber, a plunderer who happened to free their forefathers from the clutches of Maharatas all because of the fact that he was a Pashtun, he was an Afghan. He couldn’t have been a great Islamic figure because he was Pashtun. He must have been a londay baz, naswar khor, chokidaar? Reality is funny, there was a time that the Afghans and Pashtun were copied and glorified in every way as the supreme, fore example look at the Sikhs, and today these very Pashtuns and Afghans live like chickens amongst the rest of the farm animals. The very fact that Pakistan has never allowed the name change to anything that even hints an iota of Pashtun heritage speaks volumes to those who can think. Pakistan and Pashtuns knows how much they want to be part of Pakistan. In return those Pashtuns who have been true servants as Pathans have suffered because Pakistan has never trusted their sincerity no matter what or how they sacrificed for the nation.
Why did Afghans vote against Pakistan in the UN and when it was being created? It is simple, Afghanistan was going to loose a big part of its territory for nothing. This territory which clearly belongs to Afghanistan after the fact that Duran treaty has expired was snatched by the British to please Mohammad Ali Jinnah, their protégé who was used to divide two nations, India and Afghanistan. Both nations had become a pain for the British ever since they had invaded the region. In both nations it was the Muslims who fought against the Raj rebelliously with exception of the Sikhs. Both of these nations became the reason behind their imperial demise. Pakistan was created for countless strategic reasons, one to divide the Muslim population of India, two divide the staunchest Muslims of the age the Pashtuns, and behind it all was a very good reason, to stop a second Khalifah or Islamic empire ever emerging and they succeeded. Instead of having two borders between the largest Muslim populations of the world i.e. Iran, Afghanistan, and India, now stood 5 Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Kashmir. Now that said, I ask would Pakistan agree to an independent Kashmiri nation meaning Pakistan has to loose a big chunk of Pakistans head? Knowing that the new state will be mainly influenced by Indians? Only if the international community has their guns turned on Pakistan, just like the British had on Afghanistan but even then Afghanistan showed their distaste for the whole thing. During the Soviet war Pakistan with the US supported the insurgency in Afghanistan that collapsed the Afghan government. Then Pakistan supported the civil war in Afghanistan. Then Pakistan supported and created the Taliban. Yet you dare ask why do the Afghans hate you? They have every right to hate you. Pakistan has survived as a nation on the turmoil and havoc that was and is in Afghanistan. It knows very well that the day all of the chaos in Afghanistan ends, Pakistan would be forced to submit NWFP to Afghanistan.
The non-Pashtun of Afghanistan would not agree to merger of NWFP with Afghanistan? Hahaahah that is funny, you guys haven’t read your history. The non-Pashtun were the staunchest supporters of Pashtunistan. The mere fact that the joining of NWFP with Afghanistan would mean the division of Pakistan gets them off. The non-Pashtun of Afghanistan hates Pakistan more then they hate Pashtuns. When the Northern Alliance took over Kabul they didn’t ask the Taliban who is Pashtun and who is an Arab, the first thing they asked was which amongst you is Pakistani? In Afghanistan today it is the Northern Alliance non-Pashtun that are taking sides with India and inviting their investments all over Afghanistan. It was them that asked Indian to bring in their troops. As of this week non-Pashtuns of Afghanistan are in preparation of organizing Indian film star concerts in Kabul.
For the religious Pashtuns joining Afghanistan means regrouping the staunchest Muslims on earth, and for the materialistic Pashtuns joining Afghanistan means having your own and not feeding on the tokray of Punjab, and to the culturalist, well we all know what it means then.
In the end I would like to point out to the fact that how all the non-Pashtuns in their recent posts on this thread have tried to greed the Pashtuns in sticking with Pakistan. How unfortunate it is today for Pakistan that today it can’t even use the Islamic brotherhood drum because we all know it has been ripped apart by Pakistan itself. What shame and how sad. Jinnah must be turning in his grave. Today we must all admit, Pakistan has failed as a nation when Pakistanis have to greed Pakistanis in sticking with Pakistan.
Mod, go ahead delete this one too.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
I don't know why Indians become so sympathetic to anything that is against Pakistan...Why so much obsession with Pakistan & Pakistanis...They should stick their noses in their own matters & worry about their own backyard...And Shame on those Afghanis who try to create troubles for Pakistanis...because if they think they are justified...They should return their Tajik ,Uzbek & Turkoman areas to Tajikistan ,uzbekistan & turkmenistan first...as no Pashtun under these circumstances wants to live under Dari speaking majority...& obviously name change doesn't signify the will to join afghanistan...most absurd...if we start calling punjab the Eastern Province...everyone there would be aggravated too..
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Logo, non-pashtuns may be the biggest proponent of pashtunistan, but once they see what a majority pashtun country will do to them, they will work for the opposite. even today, many of them hate pashtuns for what they did with taliban. Don't count your chickens until they are hatched or you will end up like Zia-ul-Haq or Ahmed shah massoud.
Truth is that pashtuns are very confused right now. After end of Taliban, their ego is hurt and they want to back to the cause of Ghaffar Khan but that cause to is in limbo.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Ah, its look like a healthy discussion at khyberwatch.com
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Who are Indians here?
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
[quote]
The arrogant rational on this site is that Afghanistan is a stone age country
[/quote]
That's been irritating me as well, I'm not even an Afghan but I hate bigots from any nationality, this sort of mentality isn't just limited towards Afghanistan, most Pakistanis have the same mentality towards NWFP...
It really pisses me off because it's not like Pakistan or Punjab is USA-UK, they should look at themselves before degrading anyone else, rural Punjab and rural Sindh are just as under developed as rural NWFP and rural Baluchistan despite the Punjabi-Mohajir dominated goverments being partial to these areas, if Pathans' are living in caves then Punjabis are living in mud and straw huts, the urban areas might be more developed on the eastern side but again that's because of the goverments unfair policies. "Pakistanis'" seem to think if they adopt the ways of Westerners and Indians and not have no values of their own it's modernisation and gives them a license to mock those who don't do the same, wot a cheap mentality!!
I've been pissed off with a lot of comments made by Afghans against Pakistan but now that I think of it it's understandable, they have reason to..
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
I live in America, and even though I came from Pakistan, I would still perfer to live in America. Just because you came from someplace doesnt mean you want to go back to that place. I mean there was a reason you left to begin with..
But emotions and sentiment aside, given the state of Afghaistan today, do you really think Pashtuns want to join Afghanistan?
But then you also have to recall that Pashtuns weren’t forced to join Pakistan, they choose to do so.
Honestly, I think Pakistan has been good to Pashtuns in general. Pakistan gave them refuge from the war, supported them to get rid of the Russians, and have provided Pashtuns the oppurtunities that they wouldnt have gotten otherwise had they been in Afghanistan.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
You forget that Afghainstan many large minorites dont agree with you. They certainly dont feel that Afghanistan means land of the Pashtuns.
Many minorites in Afghainstan HATE pashtuns more then the Pashtuns hate the Punjabis, I mean you people already had a civil war over there, Northern Alliance just happened to Non Pashtuns if you recall. Many in Afghanistan feel they have to try to live of the left overs of the Pashtuns. I have a friend who is Uzbek Afghani, and he says that his people often supported leavng Afghanistan and joining Uzbekistan.. By your own logic, he has the right to do so same as the Pashtuns of Pakistan.
Pashtuns are the Punjabis of Afghanistan. You people openly claim all of Afghainstan as your, at least we Punjabi dont say such thing. Find me one Punjabi who see’s Pakistan as Punjabi only the same way as you see Afghanistan as Pashtun only then I will eat my Shalwar..
Doesnt feel so good when the shoe is on the other foot does it!. You may join Afghanistan but dont be surprised if the Non Pashtuns start feeling the same about pashtuns (and the have) as you do about Punjabis.
Fact of the matter is that anywhere where their is an overwhelming majority, there is bound to be some dissilusionment among minorites, specially when their is lack of democracy.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
My bias towards Afghanistan comes from talking to people who have been there. Ther are generally two views. Foreigners, or others from outside the province are impressed by the hospitality of the Pahthuns, specally in the tribal areas.
The second is from Pashtuns themselvs. Some women I talked to hate it in NWFP. I was supposed to visit Peshawar once, but the lady I was visitng, friend of the family said “Why would anyone want to visit that place?”
Men from NWFP, (except for one that I know who is very Patriotic Pakistani, and speaks the best Urdu I ever heard, NOT THAT IT MATTERS), seem to be really aggresive, and they just simply seem to be an extention of Afghniastan. I have to admit im bias towards religous people, but I see NWFP being far more intolerant and fanatical in terms of relgion, perhaps even oppressive, and that saying a lot in Pakistan. What can you say for a people that vot e MMA into power, who agree with closure of Music stores, and where people support the passage of laws like the Hasba bill or whatebver you wanna call it. What are we supposed to think when there are place like FATA still around which is a knowon hang out for Drug smugllers, theives, Bandits, gun running etc..
Why not do us all a favor and show the softer side of NWFP?
There are alot of good thing there im sure, but there always overshadowed by the negative publicity you guys get..
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Its not underdevelopment, although you have admit that the Eastern parts of Pakistan are more developed. Its more about the staunch relgious and conservative nature of NWFP. Plus the whole tough guy, Ill kill you to defend my honor thing that makes you guys a little rough around the edges.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
For all the talk of “Pakhtuns want to join their brothers in Afghanistan” put here by people who are predominantly pakhtuns living outside the so-called NWFP … Pakhtuns in the so-called NWFP have always voted with their overwhelmingly for parties without seccessionist tendencies.
Be it the PPP in the past or the MMA today - Pakistan’s Pakhtun population have always predominantly expressed political support for those parties without interest in joining Afghanistan.
So I know exactly which country my Pakistani Pakhtun brothers are happy being part of 
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
You are right, Afghanistan doesn’t mean Land of Pashtuns anymore but Land of Afghans and we pashtuns are proud of that. Non Pashtun Afghans are more patriotic to Afghanistan and they are more aware of the tricks Pakistan is palying all along with Afghans than the simple minded Pashtuns who were used by Pakistan. Afghanistan is a Nation and the proof is that after a long civil war she is still there, no single ethnic group tried for seperation all this time and they are proud to be Afghan. If Pakistan had been in such a long war it would have been into pieces by now.
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
As you like... Point is still valid, how can you accuse of hegemony in Pakistan when you yourselves do the same thing in Afghanistan? Hypocracy no?
How do you explain why so many non Pashtuns hate Pasthuns in Afghanistan? How do you explain why some in Afghnaistan still want independance?
How are you people any better?
The only reason that Afghanistan isnt in pieces is beacause the people of Northern Alliance werent fighting for an independant nation. They were fighting so they wouldnt have to be ruled by the Pashtun dominated Taliban.
And remember, unlike you people, we Punjabis never claimed Pakistan was solely Punjabi..
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
Thats what im saying… Most of this nonesense about them wanting to join Afghanistan is pure emotinal bantter. You hate Punjab, so you hate Pakistan sorta mentaltiy just to spite them…
Re: Another attempt at NWFP name change..
The hatred was due to excess of Pakistani stoges Taliban against non-pashtun afghans. Now Taliban are gone and every thing is back to normal.