Re: Angels in Religion
And I deduce from the translation you put in bold that Hazrat Adam did guard himself against Ibless as Allah told him to but Satan got to him as the verses I mentioned points out and so the two cannot be the same.
Re: Angels in Religion
No they are not.
The word Iblis is derived from Ablasa which means (1) his good or virtue decreased; (2) he gave up hope or despaired of the mercy of God; (3) became broken spirit; (4) was perplexed and unable to see his way; and (5) he was prevented from attaining his wish. Based on the root meaning of the word, Iblis is a being which contains little of good and much of evil. Iblis is really an attributive name given, on the basis of the root meaning of the word, to the Evil Spirit opposed to angels. He has been so named because he possesses the attributes enumerated above, particularly the quality of being deprived of good and of being left bewildered in teh way and of despairing of God’s mercy.
That Iblis was not the Satan spoken of in 2:37 is apparent from the fact that Quran mentions two names side by side wherever the story of Adam is given, but everywhere a careful distinction is observed between the two. Wherever it speaks of teh being who, unlike the angels, refused to serve Adam, it invariably mentions the name Iblis, and wherever it speaks of the being who beguiled Adam and became the means of his being turned out of “the garden” it mentions the name ‘Satan’. This distinction, which is most significant and which has been maintained throughout the Quran, in atleast ten places (2:35, 37; 7:12, 21; 15:32; 17:62; 18:51; 20:117, 121; 38:75) clearly shows that Iblis is different from the ‘Satan’.
Re: Angels in Religion
How does old testament answer this question? Do they have Iblees and Jinns in Old Testament? Does Old testament make a distinction between Satan and Iblees?
Re: Angels in Religion
F.O.B, as far as I can recall, there is no mention of Ibless in the old testament, it claims that Satan misguided Eve and she in turn misguided Adam. (But I am no expert on it, so sorry).
Re: Angels in Religion
Mr ahmadjee, sir. Iblees has been described extensively in this thread already as the head/father of jinn, made of fire, refused to bow to Hazrat Adam (AS) etc. If Shaitaan/Satan is a different entity altogether, can you please do some research on what exactly is Shaitaan/Satan and post your findings here? Notably the major differences between Satan and Iblees and why, if your theory of them being two different entities is true, do people confuse them both as one and use them interchangeably?
Sincerely,
Captain Lota
Re: Angels in Religion
except at 20:116-117 where Iblis is the one pointed out as the threat in terms of Adam and his wife being turned of the Garden… so they are the same
both are likewise described as ‘outcast’… coincidence?
Re: Angels in Religion
Captain Lota Ji.
"… The word ‘Satan’ is of much wider significance than Iblis, for whereas Iblis is the name given to the Evil Spirit who belonged to the jinn and refused to serve Adam, thereafter becoming the leader of the forces of evil in the universe, the word ‘Satan’ is used about any evil or harmful being or thing, whether a spirit or a human being or an animal or a disease or any other thing. *Thus, Iblis is a ‘satan;’ his comrades and associates are ‘satans’ *and harmful diseases are ‘satans’. The Quran, the Hadith and the Arabic litrature are full of instances in which the word ‘satan’ has been freely used about one or all of these things. Thus the Quran says that there are ‘satans’ both among men and jinn (6:112/113). Again, mischievous enemies of truth are also called ‘satans’ in the Quran (2:14/15). The Holy Prophet (saw) once used the name ‘satan’ about a thief who had repeatedly robbed Abu Huraira (Bukhari). Similarly the Holy Prophet once said that a black street dog was a ‘satan’ (Majah). Again he once ordered his Companions to cover up their utensils containg food and drink lest ‘satan’ should find its way into them, evidently meaning harmful insects and germs. (Majah). At another place the Holy Prophet exhorts his followers to clean their nostrils when they rise from sleep in the morning as ‘satan’ rests in them, hinting that harmful matters accumulates in the nostrils which, if not removed, may injure health (Muslim).
From the above instances it is clear that ‘satan’ is a very general term and is freely used about all evil or harmful beings or things." [Taken from this Tafseer-e-Quran]
More on the word Satan
P.s: Yes, I typed it all up for you.
Re: Angels in Religion
Thankyou for taking the trouble to type it all up for me, sir. So my understanding so far is that shaitaan is abstract while iblees is physical.
I suppose people use the two interchangeably because if shaitaan represents all (100%) evil/harm in the universe, then iblees is the biggest component of evil/harm. In a more statistical manner for example, Iblees attributes for 99.9999% of shaitaan/evil/harm whereas all the other harmful things in life (germs, insects) account for the 0.0001% of shaitaan/evil/harm.
Please don't shoot me. That was just an example for presentation purposes. The numbers probably arent accurate any my derived theory might be flawed altogether. Its just a way of looking at things.
Sincerely,
Captain Lota
PS: Mr Ahmadjee, sir. Can you please also clarify weather or not it was Iblees who was involved in the Forbidden Fruit incident in Paradise or was it just some other component of Satan?
Re: Angels in Religion
Captain ji, I am not sure how big of a portion Iblis is of Satan, but you can go by your ratios if you please.
I believe that Iblis tried very hard to misguide Hazrat Adam (as) but being a true prophet of Allah, he stood strong, or in other words didn't cave in to his urges to eat from the forbidden tree. But Satan, probably another man or woman or spirit got to him when he least suspected.
Let me make it clear that I don't understand these verses litrally and therefore do not precieve tree as one outside my door. At the same time, I do not consider the interpretation I believe in as absolute, i.e. it can be a physical tree outside my door.
Re: Angels in Religion
Since Iblis is from the jinn.. we can conclude the existence of the 'other race'.. the one which was present before humans were 'given charge' of the earth.. they may be genetically different.. (fire instead of mud/clay) but have the same purpose and will be tested just like humans in life and the hereafter... in fact some even conjecture that they are the 'reptilian' race..
I find ahmadjees concept of Shaitan intriguing.. but will reserve judgement till i've researched it from that angle..
Re: Angels in Religion
Mr PakistaniAbroad, sir. Its funny you mentioned the theory of jinn being reptilian. I read a similar article a few months ago deducing that jinn could very possibly be reptiles today.
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/satan/jinn.htm
The author starts off by presenting some facts and backing them up with Quranic ayahs. He then goes on to present his own theory, based on facts collected from the Holy Quran.
The article starts off with a disclaimer:
It is thought provoking indeed but i couldnt find anything controversial. At most the author is making some bold theories which he has left to the reader for personal speculation.
If you take the trouble to go through the article and if you find anything controversial kindly post your observations here.
Sincerely,
Captain Lota
Re: Angels in Religion
CL.. I was referring to the same article when I was talking about the conjectures.. and yes the author does have a point with the cross reference between 27:10 and 7:107 .. the reptilian 'race' theories however are David Icke or Hunter Thompson's domain..
Re: Angels in Religion
firstly, the idea that whether Iblees was an angel or not, is itself is quite debatable....
the general and more accepted view being that Iblis was not from the angels, but was always a Jinn....
there have also been prominent scholars who have held the view that Iblis was infact from the angels, but was later cursed and changed into a jinn....
Abdullah ibn Abbas (ra) being the most prominent of those who held this view....
I havent yet seen anyone claim that Iblis and Satan were two different creations....
but they do believe that they r two different states of disobedience or evil....
as yusuf ali puts it in his explanation for verse 2:36....
Iblis (in verse 2:34) is apparently the Power of Evil, with the root idea of desperateness of rebellion. Satan, in this verse, is the Power of Evil, with the root idea of perversity or enemity. Note the appropriateness of the term on each occasaion. Also, "slipping" from the Garden denotes the idea of Evil gradually tempting man from a higher to a lower state.
the reason for such thought is the use of the names....
iblis is derived from a word whish means "lost of hope"....
they say that when the world was created Iblis thought he'll rule it but when Allah created Adam (as), he lost hope of ruling and felt the superiority shifting to Adam (as) and his progeny, and hence the name Iblis to describe this state of Evil....
Satan derives from "shatan" which means enemity....
there is also the question that if Iblis was exiled from heaven how come he entered it again to deceive Adam (as) and Eve????
some say that the garden from which Adam (as) and Eve were expelled was not the heaven (as in paradise) but a garden on earth....
Allama Iqbal, in his reconstruction of religious thoughts in Islam, writes that the garden was a place on earth where Adam (as) and Eve found all necessities of life and did not have to work hard to get food and save themselves from beasts and climatic changes....
but after disobedience, as a punishment, they were expelled from it and had to work kard to earn a living: i.e. no more freeboarders....
some also suggest that Iblis was forbidden to enter, i.e. as a law....
but that did not mean that he cud not enter it like a thief (we know Quran says that Jinns do go to the heavens to hear the records, see Sura Jinn)....
so he entered it hiding from the angels....
since he had spent quite a time there he'd know the way around i guess....
Jews support the idea that he was not allowed to enter and hence he went hiding in the "snake"....
but even they believe that this satan was the same iblis who had refused to do sajdah to Adam (as)....
wallahu aa'lam bissawab....
Re: Angels in Religion
The Old Testament does not make any mention of “Iblees” or “Jinns”. It states that Satan was an important Angel that rebelled against God and took about a third of other angels with him. These “fallen angels” (angels that rebelled against God), are now called devils/demons. This is the way Christians as well as Jews understand the Old Testament.
Re: Angels in Religion
^^Thanks TOM. Thats what I thought that satan was an angel.
The rest of the folks that responded thank you. It was indeed an interesting and informative thread. I did come across three websites and the three sites actually negate some of the things that posters said in this thread. However please keep one thing in mind that we are dealing with an issue that can only be resolve using speculation and deduction, no definite proof exists.
here are the sites
Brief History and definition on Devil/Satan. Interesting to seethat Hinduism doesnt have satan.
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/the_Devil
This is an interesting site, but it refers to satan as jinn rather than angel, and that angels are perfect which throws the christian theory of fallen angel(satan) as incorrect.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/satan.htm
This does label satan as an angel
Re: Angels in Religion
^ just to clarify, the last site does not represent Islamic ideas but rather of followers of a guy who claiemd to be a prophet himself....
Re: Angels in Religion
very interesting thread guys..are there any descriptions of angels in the Quran or hadith?
Re: Angels in Religion
Indeed !
Re: Angels in Religion
I was not paying attention to the owner of the website rather the content, and that too extracts from Quran. regardless of who he is /was I doubt that the quran quotes were not accurate.
Re: Angels in Religion
I think I mentioned in the opening thread that this was a general question so lets not narrow down the scope by bringing in “Islam only answers” and dis-counting other beliefs or whomever…