What do you think it is? Or what do you feel it is? Is it ‘a transparent being’ (metaphorically speaking) living in our bodies or unconscious idealization of our physical and cognitive existence?
Roman
My understanding is that you seek religious explanation of your question (hence, religious forum, you posted your question in). I found a very good page which has two or three question which can answer your question in part. Please check question 2, 3 & 5 and let me know what do you think. The URL is http://www.islam-qa.com/cgi-local/view-sub?/6|Islamic_history_and_biography(Tareekh_wa_al-Seerah)/'Ajaa’b_al-Makhlooqaat(Wonders_of_Creation)
Thanks for the link, Tariq.
The reason I posted this in religion forum was not that I was seeking religious explanation, but rather that the concept of soul is commonly associated with religious believes and that's the context usually people use to look at it. However, the concept itself can be looked upon non-religiously as well, and I meant to explore whatever possible definitions or explanation there could be, given the present mix of participants. But my initial guess was that most of the replies would be in terms of religious beliefs so I thought to post it here.
Coming to the questions you mentioned. For number 2, the answer gives a to-the-point clue to the question only in couple of places like breathing the soul into the lump of flesh in woman’s womb by an angel or how soul is taken out of body etc. Rest is simply a flowery language and unnecessary details. I think for a person who believes in religion, such explanation provides some level of satisfactory answer.
For answer #3, whether or not I’m a religion believer, it does not make sense to me. I would personally defy the statement that souls are meant to be alike and alike souls get along with each other better along with the mentioning of keeping souls in a ‘bank’ and how they form associations with eachother there and so forth.
For answer #5, I think the answer presented was a lot better compared to other two questions. To the point, clear, and simplified and I can see that it presents a sensible answer to somebody who believes in religion and accepts existence of soul as a divine creation.
Now, that’s what I think about the answers themselves. Whether or not I agree with them is entirely a different matter. I must say that I don’t intend to discuss this topic in terms of agreeing or disagreeing, or more precisely, it terms of proving or disproving. I want to know different opinions on it. I want to discover what different people with different beliefs think about soul.
Soul ;-) Roman man! Meditation, spirtuality, alpha state of brain...man u r getting there...I'd say STOP ;) or Tibet is not very far off from u.
Getting back to the question....it all depends on beliefs so I'm not surprised to see this question in a religious forum.
To me soul is the only thing which makes us different from things, objects and dead bodies. I don't have a scientific theory or knowledge which describes its birth or existence so I can't support my arguments. I'd rather believe in something and not get scared by this mystery...now the question is whether I believe in the belief I have chosen...I'm too scared to answer that one too...oh well! I'll just go out and check out the chicks! Does that answer the question...hmmm it works for me!
ciao,
BoSS (back from Tibet)
[This message has been edited by BoSS (edited April 28, 2000).]
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Originally posted by BoSS:
...oh well! I'll just go out and check out the chicks! ...
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Just a little FYI. The phenomenon is called 'soul searching' and hence the term soulmate. There is nothing more spiritual or mediatative. :P
(Back to soul searching)
SOUL = CONSCIENCE
And what instigates conscience? Is it a separate part of brain that works parallel to our mind to watch every act we perform and decides its goodness or badness... or makes us aware our mind's working at the next level?
Could it be a parallel system of brain cells independently working to observe workings of our minds and sends neurotic signals when necessary to keep a check on things, while our mind takes it for something supernatural since mind does not have the capacity or capability of detecting its origin or nature?
i heard somewhere about research being done on our consience...it was something about how at the quantum level multiple tasks are performed as teh sametime.but once we "look into it"..it all knocks into one.Well thats similar to quantum theory whcih goes on about how at the sub atomic level there is no certenty about the actual state of the particle...wels omefin liek that.....any1 know more about this stuff?
There is a beutiful dialogue between Buddha and a visitor.
The visitor, who was a very learned man came to see buddha and asked 'What is soul? What is god? Is god same as soul?' etc. Buddha smiled and said 'Ask your questions?' The visitor said 'These are my questions.' Buddha said 'no. These are questions generated because you read a specific set of books. If you read different set of books, you would ask different questions. These are not your questions, not questions you have faced. Stay with me for an year. If after an year you feel like asking the same questions, I will answer them'
Maybe the soul cant be described using "words" or adjectives on our level f thinking.
Soul is conscience. In our sub-concious mind also we keep thinking of things from a different angle. And as Roman has said conscience is a set of parallel cells working in our brain which keep telling us if we are going against a set of norms which our brain knows is acceptable to our surroundings, and keeps nagging us if we are going against it. And as ZZ has quoted Buddha, whatever we talk from a religious angle about soul is whatever we are being taught by our religious teachers/books. Our body is like a motor car. It keeps on running using all its parts. Some of the parts are vital for its running, others are not so much like seat covers, windows. Break is important, engine and petrol are vital. Any breakage anywhere is felt by the whole car but the vital parts brings to to breakdown if not properly maintained. Even after maintenance, after a period of years, the parts will slowly stop responding one by one and ultimately car has to stop one day.
Now the question is what makes it possible to make our petrol, i.e. blood within ourselves. This is a field still to be explored and once man knows that, all religions will come to their logical end.
Then, based of aforesaid discussion - Is it correct to assume that only humans have 'souls'? Or, animals have no souls!
Soul or Conscience is the ability to distinguish right from wrong; there is this continous battle in our hearts(actually it is in our minds) between the good & the bad. But, are we born with this ability to distinguish right from wrong which we have labelled soul? Or, is it developed?
A human child at birth is helpless and would not survive if not for the sustenance & love provided by its parents. Does this child at birth have soul? I would have to say - No!
Now, if you take that child at birth and lock it away in isolation so that it grows without any human contact - would that child have a soul? It would have feelings and intelligence but would it have a conscience? I would say that it would have a 'conscience level' of lower beings or animals!
Then, am I correct in my assumption that Soul or Conscience is a chemical response generated in the Brain based on our perception of right & wrong; and, that the powers of the brain has to be developed to realize its potential; the more the interactions & challenges the person is exposed to - the sharper the soul!
So, expanding along this assumption, I can then say - the 'bad soul' and 'good soul' are also developed and are bye-products of the environment that person has been exposed to. And, given the proper environment - a 'bad soul' can be transformed into a 'good soul'.
Luv to hear your thoughts!
Interesting thoughts!
Couple of questions come to mind. If soul is purely a reflection of conscience then it directly develops through human conscious (after all, it's the our mind that learns, decides, and distinguishes what's good and bad). If so then how come only humans have the surpassing intelligence over other species?
Why there are not other forms of intelligence, even not exceeding or equal, but at least at a closer level to that of human mind? I know this sidetracks the discussion a bit, but I just wanted to ask this in the context of human conscious.
I feel that the notion or concept of soul is not necessarily limited to distinction between good and bad. I think human congnition and emotions are capable enough faculties for that. Soul stands for more. Whatever it is, whether it is a supernatural being or a mechanism of brain cells, it deals with awareness, among other things. Awareness of our existence beyond our normal, mental understanding of it.
It also functions as a leeway to calm our inner uncertainty, confusion, and desperation of finding the answers to the unanswerables to keep the balance and avoid chaos. That is why concepts of spirituality and soul are usually used interchangeably.
I think concepts of bad soul and good soul are purely metaphorical. Human mind needs a certain level of development before it can question something that our mind cannot answer and that's when concept of soul is realized. That's why animals are said to have 'no soul' since they don't have the higher level of intelligence to explore and discover, and when fail, find a mindscape which is sometimes called spirituality and others, soul.
Many theorists have called the 'I' in us as soul as well. 'I' is borrowed from the observation that when we are thinking, we are aware of our thinking at the same time. In other words, we can observe ourselves thinking, pondering, and performing different acts as an observer. So within ourselves, we have a person and a its observer. Some call that observer soul too.
In either case, it's not soul that becomes conscious of our conscious, it's our conscious that becomes conscious of our soul's concious. Does that make sense?
Roman, your understanding of the soul correlates with the teachings of Religions, i.e. the soul (roo’h) is Supernatural; that - humans have souls and, the goal is reunion with the Source or the Creator, failure means constant re-birth or reincarnation until the human soul realizes that ultimate union. Quran says that there is a good soul and bad soul deposited in each of us; Some creeds within Islam argue that souls can experience union with the Almighty while still alive; others claim that it only happens after death.
In that case, yes, the soul is at the ‘Apex’ of all consciousness and your statement is correct:
“it's not soul that becomes conscious of our conscious, it's our conscious that becomes conscious of our soul's concious.”
Having said that then, let me ask you this – Did humans ALWAYS have this high level of consciousness and intellect? If you answer- Yes then, the soul is indeed something ‘supernatural’ and that humans have evolved from Adam. And, this also answers your question as to why there are no other beings with the human intelligence level; and that, animals are here for our sustenance & pleasures; and, that we are, indeed, special.
If you choose – No then, you put yourself on the side of the evolutionists and, that we are OF THE COSMOS AND BACK TO COSMOS WE SHALL RETURN ! The life creating blocks have originated in the Cosmos and the life-forms are comprised of elements found in the Cosmos. And, when we die our bodies decompose and immerse with the Cosmos. And, that man with his intelligence & conscience has evolved over time and, in the primordial stage humans were no more than lower beings hunting & living in packs with elementary language or communication skills. So today, what we deem as soul is nothing more than Conscience or Consciousness!
So, Is your perception of ‘Soul’ based upon religion or evolution? If I digress then pls put me back on track!
Adbulmalick,
No, I never implied that my understanding of soul aligns with religious or non-religious beliefs. That's exactly why I used the phrase Whatever it is, whether it is a supernatural being or a mechanism of brain cells for the soul.
I think in any type of discussion that involves religion, God, or soul etc, it comes to the point where the classic rivalary between Evalution and Creation gets involved.
Now coming to your questions. The answer to your question is I don't know. If soul is a mechanism of physical brain cells then yeah, it develops mature with age. However, if it is a supernatural being then it's always there.
The point is that I'm not claiming what soul is. It could be either of the two cases. However, what I'm suggesting is the way it works or its functioning. And I tend to think that distinction between good and bad is not dependent upon soul (again, whether soul is a supernatural being or mechanism of brain cells). Since our conscious views soul as the apex (as you mentioned) or ultimate point of existence, it associates all the ultimate answers and attributes of our existence to it.
Soul deals more with the self. The self that is foreseen transcending from this state to that, beyond just the physical world and existence, whether that beyond-physical-world-or-existence (ie reincarnation, aakhrat, or after-life etc) exists or not. This working of our conscious may just be a mindscape to keep things from going astray in terms of human uncertainty, or it might be actually be a supernatural being. We don't know. What we claim we know is purely based on what we believe, which in the end becomes more important than trying to find the answers to this unanswerable.
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited May 03, 2000).]
Roman,
I always had a kind of spiritual bent - maybe it's my upbringing!
Do you believe a soul can have union/vision with the Light/Allah through meditation?
Are there texts or references on this that you can refer to?
wowyi,
These are just my personal reflections, I don't have any text or reference to support their validity... neither did I intend to prove they are valid or not. I simply intended to explore the subject matter into different directions based on what different people think about it.
About your question, again, I would say I don't know and that's not important either. What important is, however, how you personally feel about it. If you think that it can unite your with God OR contrary to it, believe that it is simply a psychological dimension of chatharsis for us humans and feel comfortable with either of these inferences then that's what matters.
There is no proving or disproving, agreeing or disagreeing may be.
*Roman and friends, salam! *
yaar I haven't read the whole discussion, but few things I know offhand about soul, are as follows;
Firstly, talking about soul is the same as explaining some red-blind person, how a Red color looks like, though he knows there is something called Red, but he cant actually perceive it, that what Allah says, that we have not given humans the sense to understand it. A human brain cant perceive that dimension.
Secondly, it is inserted into a human body or formed within ones body when the fetus is as young as 4 months old, though the first sign of life is visible in the embryo at the 6th day when a small pool of blood start pulsating. Having a sign of life doesn't mean that one has a soul too. It's the same like a brain dead person lying in the intensive-care bed for months or years, though it has no soul. None of the examples has shown that a person is reverted back, despite all the monitors are showing some sort of electrical activity in the brain and the heart.
Thirdly, Allah says he captures the soul twice, once during sleep, which is meant to be returned; the other one is not returned. It is very interesting to know that the soul during sleep bounces to and fro, and its timings are as accurate as an atomic clock. We experience two types of sleep, REM and nonREM, it is this REM (Rapid Eye Movement) during which we see dreams and is characterized by very unusual type of electrical activity in the brain. The nonREM part of sleep is the deepest form of sleep. It's very hard to awake someone during this sleep. If managed to awaken, the person feels confused for few secs before coming to normal. Still I am not sure which part of the sleep REM/nonREM is related to soul's in/out activity. But definitely there is some corelation.
Fourthly, the soul has no specific sex; in Quran depending upon the form of addressed it has been directed both as a masculine as well as a feminine.
Lastly, a soul cant live without the body, the body, which is given in this world to a soul, is intended to weave another body with the help of this first one…. Our deeds are something, which also can't be explained, in fact out actions is the building material used by our souls for its next body. A great person writes that he has been shown many souls, some were bright as noor, and some were dark like a black smoke. So I think at the time of death this soul is transferred to another body, which is made by our worldly performances.
That's all for now. I will come up with the other aspects later, let me first go through all the replies.
Salaams,
Just wanted to add something...
"There is one spectacle greater than the sea, that is the sky; there is one spectacle grander than the sky that is the interior of the soul."
:)
Our awareness of existance , can be divided in three levels...
First is cognition that helps us percieve and analyse information from the environment...on moment to moment basis...
Second is our understanding of life as individuals , our ideals , goals , aspirations...concerned about understanding and planning of life over its span..
Third is our understanding of the relationship and place we have in the bigger picture..As part of human race,,, as part of life in general..as part of universe in general....This third level is usually ill formed, as there is very little concrete information that goes in it , and we are left to make deductions , by finding deeper and deeper correlations...In my opinion ( as a science student) This is what we call soul..i.e The part of our cognition that relates us ( or strives to understand the realationship) with existance beyond individuals...
We as individuals( biological beings, well defined in time) cease to exist after a finite time, but the process of life doesnt...If we define ourselves as life/ esxistance, and biological being as only a menifestation of it..we become immortal.....In my opinion , this part of our consciousness has been historically termed soul. And over the years given more myhtical power then its initial definition .
[This message has been edited by Nova (edited May 20, 2000).]